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Unfruitful sexual activity is no different than not having sex at all. Your argument fails.
The simple fact of the matter is that virtually all "modern" industrialized nations are having problems relating to low birth rates, low marriage rates, and crumbling gender relations. That is the "failure" to which I alluded, not anything specifically having to do with sex.
Japan simply happens to be the most extreme case. It is not, however; necessarily inconceivable that the same could happen here.
Most "modern" societies are failing in the same way Japan is.
Who says I'm not adhering to them? The simple fact of the matter is that I'm broke and have nothing to offer at the time being. Women would be wise to avoid me, and I them until my circumstances improve.
Most Japanese men are not in my situation, but women are refusing to enter into relationships with them anyway; preferring to remain single to having to deal with the "hassle" of a man unless he happens to be wealthy in a manner which greatly exceeds the national average.
Because Japan, as you admit, is an extreme case. But then, it's you have been arguing that it's selfishness driving the marriage and birth rate down. It turns out that their decisions have harsh economic realities driving their choices.
Yes, the U.S. has economic pressure, but not to the degree the Japanese do nor the cultural pressures they live under which make it considerably less likely single people here will give up sex.
You mean a specific segment of the population are not having children at replacement level. The wealthy and middle class.
We are back to my original reply to you:
What is wrong with them putting other priorities first? Men do this. Why is it that women automatically need to sacrifice their lives to be brood mares? Some women don't have a maternal instinct. God bless them for knowing themselves enough not to put kids through the agony of being raised by a mother who didn't really want them.
And? How does this differ significantly from the rest of the industrialized world?
I dunno. Isn't basing a causation assumption on a single chart rather risky? Risky in the sense that it's not likely to be correct?
There could be a bunch of different reasons, other than marriage, for employment rates for unmarried women to fall. I'd think that more information would be needed to make that leap.
I have seen absolutely no evidence to support this conclusion other than your own assertions. Basically every other source which has been presented on the subject (which include actual testimony from young Japanese people themselves, no less) says that the major problem is that they do not want to be burdened with the expectations of traditional marriage in the first place.
They view it as being too "troublesome" to work, and would rather go it alone.
I have posted extensive evidence so if you haven't seen it, it is because you have once again ignored it.
And you have posted no evidence to support your claim that the japanese do not want to be burdened with the expectations of traditional marriage. I have posted evidence that they want a traditional marriage (90% want it) but that their economic situation makes those traditional values unrealistic.
Even you have described the Japanese women who want to marry a man who can be the sole provider as having "unrealistic expectations"
I'm not going to deny that culture plays a role here.
However, the principles at play are ultimately the same either way regardless. Women in industrialized societies where ideas like "feminism" and wide spread materialism have taken hold, simply do not seem to have much of an interest in marriage, family, or childrearing.
This is true across the board, even in societies where the significance of the economic factors at play have been reduced due to government policy.
That alone doesn't account for the problems Japan is experiencing. Women often pass up on men who actually are making enough money to potentially support a family, simply because they don't view the amount he makes as being "desirable enough" to support the lifestyle they desire, or because they would rather maintain the career they already possess.
Women are basically doing exactly what you described with regard polygamous societies. They are passing up everyone else in favor of the most desirable males available.
Btw, do you know what a psychologist does? Somehow I doubt it. Go ahead and google it though, since you have already exposed your ignorance once again.
I'm not going to deny that culture plays a role here.
However, the principles at play are ultimately the same either way regardless. Women in industrialized societies where ideas like "feminism" and wide spread materialism have taken hold, simply do not seem to have much of an interest in marriage, family, or childrearing.
This is true across the board, even in societies where the significance of the economic factors at play have been reduced due to government policy.
If anyone doesnt want to be burdened with the traditional expectations of marriage and provider, I've only read of the extreme conditions the men are going to, or ending up in. By choice tho. The ones that live in their bedrooms of their parents' homes and never leave and spend all their time on the Internet...totally homebound, no jobs, unable to (implied) deal with the very real and strict pressures of the Japanese business world. And they have a very high suicide rate too.
I'm glad that you don't see much of that around you. Sadly, however, the growth of loser men fulfilling low expectations and therefore seeming to be unsuitable matches for high-achieving women is a real trend in our society today. No one (generally) sets out to copy entertainment, but the value systems and social assumptions that we surround ourselves with and ingest shape our behavior.
You are referring to "shut-ins" and while their # is increasing, they are still such a small portion of the population to have any significant effect on the birth rates.
What we're discussing here is a Japanese phenomena knows as "parasite singles" - young adults who are single and still live at home. They are not shut-ins. They go out. They have social lives. They just don't have homes of their own, wives, children or sex.
And there are a lot of them.
That's a whole lot closer to what I've been saying than what Gath has been arguing.
Gath believes that the problem is, at it's root, caused by various societies abandoning their traditional values. However, the problem in Japan is the exact opposite of that. People aren't remaining single because they value their career over family. They are remaining single because they are stubbornly clinging to the traditional value that the man should be the provider even though their economy no longer makes that possible.
In addition, the problem is exacerbated because their employers continue to adhere to the traditional value of undervaluing the women workers, particularly if they are married. This makes becoming a two-income family nearly impossible as a practical matter. In addition, there's the cultural reality that there is a social stigma attached to married women who work.
As a result, the majority can not marry and depend solely on the man's income, nor can they marry and depend on them both having an adequate income. It's a Catch-22 situation caused by their clinging to traditional values. In order to change, they need to change. They must accept that married women won't and can not be nothing more than homemakers and that a two-income family model is acceptable.
Are you saying that she didnt do any interviewing in all these examples? Really? :lamo
"Helen Smith, PhD, is a psychologist specializing in forensic issues and men’s issues in Knoxville, Tennessee. She holds a PhD from the University of Tennessee and master’s degrees from The New School for Social Research and the City University of New York. She has written The Scarred Heart: Understanding and Identifying Kids Who Kill and was writer and executive producer of Six, a documentary about the murder of a family in Tennessee by teens from Kentucky. She has worked with men (as well as women and children) in her private practice for more than twenty years. She has been on numerous television and radio shows including Montel Williams and has appeared on E! Entertainment, Fox News, Discovery, Women’s Entertainment, Biography, Oxygen and The Learning Channel. Smith has written for numerous publications including the Los Angeles Times, The Christian Science Monitor and The Cleveland Plain Dealer. She occasionally hosts a show at PJTV focusing on men’s issues, psychology and politics. She has written on her blog at drhelen.blogspot.com since 2005 on men’s rights, men’s issues and psychology and is now a columnist and blogger at PJ Media."
Ah....is this not a parental issue then? I'm sure it's more complex...it was in the articles I just read here...but hey...who's enabling them?
Then we can dispense Japan as a discussion point.Again, not really, as most of the rest of the world suffers from many of the same problems as Japan, regardless of the economic factors at play.
This is simply the result modern notions of "gender roles" seem to bring about. More women avoiding relationships, marriage, and procreation in favor of other pursuits, and more men losing their own place in society and falling into something of a "perpetual adolescence" as they don't see the point in trying to better themselves.
Japan simply happens to be the most extreme case.
.They're already giving up marriage and family. Whether they give up sex as well is ultimately incidental
I was simply pointing out that the same general trends exist in both cultures.
Yes, the productive portion that keeps the rest of the system afloat.
It is what it is. :shrug:
However, we can observe from simply looking at the culture we inhabit that it tends to bring about certain, very negative, impacts. It leads men to become socially aimless and unmotivated, and it leads to declining birthrates which jeopardize the sustainability of society as a whole.
The point here is to rebut your position that simply paying for school taxes means that they've paid their way. Making a contribution doesn't equal paying your way. A child with a paper route contributes to the family's finances but that doesn't mean that he's not still a financial cost for the family.
I feel like a damn marriage counselor here.
What I see Gath arguing is that women's choices in Japan are moderated by a vision of an economic lifestyle. To get married to a man who can't provide that lifestyle would entail a step down, either in terms of their ideal or an actual step-down in their current lifestyle if the man is the only breadwinner. The women COULD have the married lifestyle they claim to want but it would come at an unacceptable cost in terms of income/wealth.
No one has based causation on a single chart. Instead, Gath has claimed that the low marriage rates in japan is caused by women who value their careers over marriage and done so without showing *any* facts to support the claim.
The chart shows a lowered participation rate in the workforce by women. One would think that if more women today considered a career more important than they used to, then that would result in an increase in the participation rate for them and not a decrease.
I pay for those services, like public schools, every day of my entire working life...which has been since about age 16. And I'm not impressed with much of what I've paid for.
OK. Fair enough.
Are we sure that the chart is for Japanese women? Or is this study on US women?
I wonder if the present conditions in Japan, i.e. recovering from the Tsunami (if Japanese women), and the recession, wouldn't have some sort of impact on that as well. Seems that there are far too many variables here might have something to do with this trending.
Pay attention and focus!
The comment you are responding to was in response to your claim that the Japanese despise sex and that we are heading in the same direction.
Again pay attention and focus!!
You argued that we are headed in the same direction as Japan, where the young adults despise sex.
I pointed out that tradition does not support people marrying mates that were unsuitable because they were not capable of fulfilling their traditional role (as a provider).
You responded that poor people have been marrying other poor people for ages. If the Japanese are not poor, then why did you mention how poor people have a tradition of marrying other poor people?
It shows that the women you claim are unwilling to give up their careers in order to get married do not even have careers. If a career was becoming more and more important to Japanese women then their participation in the workforce would be increasing, not decreasing.
Again, pay attention and focus!
You claimed that modern societies are failing in the same way as Japan is.
Actually, as the article I linked to shows, most Japanese men are in a situation similar to yours - they do not make enough to support a family.
I am glad to see that you have finally acknowledged that the problem is economic and not being caused by a culture discarding traditional gender roles. :lol:
Or have you?
I have posted extensive evidence so if you haven't seen it, it is because you have once again ignored it.
And you have posted no evidence to support your claim that the japanese do not want to be burdened with the expectations of traditional marriage. I have posted evidence that they want a traditional marriage (90% want it) but that their economic situation makes those traditional values unrealistic.
Even you have described the Japanese women who want to marry a man who can be the sole provider as having "unrealistic expectations"
In Japan, men and women are declaring, “Mendokusai!”—”It’s too troublesome!”—about relationships, reports the Guardian. Women are avoiding relationships of any kind, because there’s no support for them to skip getting married or to balance a family with a career. Men, on the other hand, are feeling pressure to fit into a model of the perfect breadwinner. The local media has its own name for these choices, according to the Guardian: “celibacy syndrome.”
...
These problems have come to a head over the past couple decades. Women are increasingly earning college degrees and pursuing careers, but the country’s policies and company cultures have not kept up. Few employees provide adequate maternity leave or daycare. Women in some companies say it’s impossible to earn a promotion after getting married because bosses assume the woman will soon get pregnant and quit the job.
...
Some women and men told the Guardian that they steer away from sex in order to avoid developing long-term feelings that may lead to a serious relationship
What? Where did you discuss technology with me?
No, it is not true in Japan. As I have proven, single Japanese have a lot of interest in marriage and creating a family. And contrary to your claims about how feminism is at fault, in Japan the problem is that married women are expected to not work, making it difficult if not impossible for young people to have a two-income family. The one income family is unrealistic (because most Japanese men do not make enough) and the two income family is unrealistic (because the Japanese look down on married women who work, so they don't hire married women).
It's not feminism that causes the Japanese to look down on married women who work. It's traditional values.
First off, the rationale for public schooling is that it improves society, not that the taxes are some indirect way of paying for your own children's schooling.
Secondly, we certainly do pay through the nose for schooling, but with confounding factors controlled, our students are near the very top in comparison to other Western nations.
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