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McCain torture ammendment stupid, & dangerous!

Stu Ghatze

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Thats right, ..it is stupid, & dangerous! First of all, ..what is remotely similiar to real torture, & whom shall define it?

So...John McCain wants an amendment outlawing all military personel from ever using "whatever" is deemed to be torture!

Sure, ..why not show our hands to brainwashed, hardcore terrorists in letting them know "upfront"...Imagine having Mohammed Atta in custody BEFORE 9/11 happened;.."why, we cannot use any harsh interrogation methods so...you really do not have to co-operate because we ourselves can be prosecuted, ..& by golly you even can have access to our american courts" to criminalize our behavior"????

WTF.... I'm so sick of that g-damn John McCAin who should, & DOES KNOW better.

McCain knows full well what "REAL" torture is as a former Viet-nam prisoner, & in his heart he knows that America does not employ real torture that is even commensurate with that definition.

Most americans have no problem with terrorists being humiliated, being threatened, sent to their cell without supper, ..or even having them slapped around "some" to extract pertinent information that could save the lives of American soldiers, ..& any innocent persons.

Shall we leave it all up to a liberal judge to prosecute a member of our military because of his interpretation of the word "torture".....I think not!

Those individual soldiers who did abuse terror prisoners were "successfully" prosecuted proving that the checks & balances in the military DO work.

The LAST thing we need is some liberal judge ideologue who thinks that terrorists are just common street criminal who have, & deserve any constitutional rights so they can pursue their rights of happiness, ..which of course is to export terror all over the world in the name of islam!

Terrorists who do not openly represent any legal government, respect no laws of military engagement, make no distinction in whom they MURDER, & are indoctrinated on the fine art of murder, assassination, & respect no laws of any g-damn decency.

Shall we as a nation "disqualify" our ability to extract future terror acts, because our military "might" be engaging in "torture" which is loosely defined by liberal do gooders, & the liberal media, ..& by McCAin posing as a moderate conservative in conflict with the Bush administration so he can be immortalized as at least 1-good republican still in good standing by his liberal contemporaries that reside in the senate, ..& all the nicities, & priveleges that are bestowed upon such by the mainstream media as "acceptable" alternatives to the republican party!

McCain ought to be ashamed of himself, as some other republicans who want to be ''accepted" by their fellow liberal democrat senators!

For chrise sakes...nobody is advocating "real" torture upon terrorists, & to tie & hamstring our military, & deny them FUTURE options to extract necessary information from terror murderer's that could prevent a catastrophic terror act is absolutely insane, & irresponsible!

This is NOT the first time John McCain has "prostituted" himself for the sake of himself as being seen as an acceptable alternative for some democratic voters.

MY only wish is , ...God forbid, "IF" a major terror act is established to happen in the future against America, or Americans.....is that John McCain, & his CHUMMY fellow liberal democrats are WELL REMEMBERED for giving, & guaranteeing the terror enemy ALL that is needed for them to accomplish its goal of successful terror!

God help such people see themselves as the dangerous, stupid..& suicidal behavior as these people really are in their quest for so called, "rights" for a terror enemy that never sleeps, or ever holds any notion of peace for the rest of humanity! :roll:

In truth I will say....John McCain could not make a "pimple" on a presidents as.s, ..as he is much more "disingenuine", ..than ever the republican he has ever claimed to be!

His past actions, ..& present actions shall NOT be forgotten!
 
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mikeey

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Stu Ghatze,AMERICA comes first as they should, and always,so the rubbish
and that u say means nothing to us,we believe in the USA and thats that.

so go back to your where

u come from and behave your self.

regards mikeey
 

TimmyBoy

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Stu Ghatze said:
Thats right, ..it is stupid, & dangerous! First of all, ..what is remotely similiar to real torture, & whom shall define it?

So...John McCain wants an amendment outlawing all military personel from ever using "whatever" is deemed to be torture!

Sure, ..why not show our hands to brainwashed, hardcore terrorists in letting them know "upfront"...Imagine having Mohammed Atta in custody BEFORE 9/11 happened;.."why, we cannot use any harsh interrogation methods so...you really do not have to co-operate because we ourselves can be prosecuted, ..& by golly you even can have access to our american courts" to criminalize our behavior"????

WTF.... I'm so sick of that g-damn John McCAin who should, & DOES KNOW better.

McCain knows full well what "REAL" torture is as a former Viet-nam prisoner, & in his heart he knows that America does not employ real torture that is even commensurate with that definition.

Most americans have no problem with terrorists being humiliated, being threatened, sent to their cell without supper, ..or even having them slapped around "some" to extract pertinent information that could save the lives of American soldiers, ..& any innocent persons.

Shall we leave it all up to a liberal judge to prosecute a member of our military because of his interpretation of the word "torture".....I think not!

Those individual soldiers who did abuse terror prisoners were "successfully" prosecuted proving that the checks & balances in the military DO work.

The LAST thing we need is some liberal judge ideologue who thinks that terrorists are just common street criminal who have, & deserve any constitutional rights so they can pursue their rights of happiness, ..which of course is to export terror all over the world in the name of islam!

Terrorists who do not openly represent any legal government, respect no laws of military engagement, make no distinction in whom they MURDER, & are indoctrinated on the fine art of murder, assassination, & respect no laws of any g-damn decency.

Shall we as a nation "disqualify" our ability to extract future terror acts, because our military "might" be engaging in "torture" which is loosely defined by liberal do gooders, & the liberal media, ..& by McCAin posing as a moderate conservative in conflict with the Bush administration so he can be immortalized as at least 1-good republican still in good standing by his liberal contemporaries that reside in the senate, ..& all the nicities, & priveleges that are bestowed upon such by the mainstream media as "acceptable" alternatives to the republican party!

McCain ought to be ashamed of himself, as some other republicans who want to be ''accepted" by their fellow liberal democrat senators!

For chrise sakes...nobody is advocating "real" torture upon terrorists, & to tie & hamstring our military, & deny them FUTURE options to extract necessary information from terror murderer's that could prevent a catastrophic terror act is absolutely insane, & irresponsible!

This is NOT the first time John McCain has "prostituted" himself for the sake of himself as being seen as an acceptable alternative for some democratic voters.

MY only wish is , ...God forbid, "IF" a major terror act is established to happen in the future against America, or Americans.....is that John McCain, & his CHUMMY fellow liberal democrats are WELL REMEMBERED for giving, & guaranteeing the terror enemy ALL that is needed for them to accomplish its goal of successful terror!

God help such people see themselves as the dangerous, stupid..& suicidal behavior as these people really are in their quest for so called, "rights" for a terror enemy that never sleeps, or ever holds any notion of peace for the rest of humanity! :roll:

In truth I will say....John McCain could not make a "pimple" on a presidents as.s, ..as he is much more "disingenuine", ..than ever the republican he has ever claimed to be!

His past actions, ..& present actions shall NOT be forgotten!
McCain knows more about the consequences of torture than most of us here because of his unfortunate first hand experience. I support McCain's efforts in the Congress to ban all torture.
 

FinnMacCool

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This is why I love McCain. Any Republican who can **** of Stu is someone who I would vote for in a heart beat. Okay sure he doesn't have the same views as me but at least he is more honest then the next politician and he isn't always constantly praising Bush etc.
 

Simon W. Moon

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Opposition the ammendment aids the terrorists and put our troops in greater danger.
 

Stu Ghatze

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FinnMacCool said:
This is why I love McCain. Any Republican who can **** of Stu is someone who I would vote for in a heart beat. Okay sure he doesn't have the same views as me but at least he is more honest then the next politician and he isn't always constantly praising Bush etc.



This is NOT about Bush, ..can you Bush haters finally get that through your heads?

PLEASE DEFINE WHAT "YOU" THINK "REAL" TORTURE IS, ..or perhaps you will choose to decline this invitation in order to complete the full circle of avoiding issues as the democrats like to do, ..but are the first to condemn, & point their fingers at others?

This bill McCain is sponsoring, ..that liberals LOVE,... is dangerous to the security of America, ..& think NOT that terrorists are not licking their chops at the utter futility it will leave our military intel people.

I thank God...none of our past great WWII combat military generals are not still here to see such insane behavior in the senate that can do nothing but serve the "best" interests of the terror enemy with such a shortsighted imbecelic view on self righteousness.

May God grant these self absorbed, self righteous senators longevity to live long enough to reap the rewards & consequences of their own misguided actions! :surrender

What next from our "caring & sensitive" senate; .."Perhaps an american financed 401K pension plan for TERRORISTS to help offset the costs, & dangers of being a long term terrorist"???

Or perhaps...give individual terrorists a tax payed based legal defense team of Alan Dershowitz, & Robert Shapiro!

I'am more than quite sure that THEY would graciously agree to defending base murderers & beheaders; ..& even help them with their book deals AFTER they got them all aquitted, ..after of course they all charged the United States government of being racists, & islamic haters first!
 
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Stu Ghatz let me say this;

If America had/has more intelligence operatives that could speak Arabic, Farsi, and Indonesian, maybe we wouldn't need to torture people, because US intelligence services could gather usefull intelligence and prevent and prosecute those willing to commit terrorist acts.

Sure the U.S may not perform torture, but that doesn't mean that they outsource it to other countries??

Also I'd like to know if torture actually gives any usefull information, or does the recieving person just tell the torturer exactly what he/or she wants to here?

As soon as you allow governments grey areas of power they will abuse it. Whether it be in the U.S or Australia.
 

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I think I will let Senator McCain speak for himself

http://mccain.senate.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=NewsCenter.ViewPressRelease&Content_id=1611

Mr. President, to fight terrorism we need intelligence. That much is obvious. What should also be obvious is that the intelligence we collect must be reliable and acquired humanely, under clear standards understood by all our fighting men and women. To do differently would not only offend our values as Americans, but undermine our war effort, because abuse of prisoners harms – not helps – us in the war on terror. First, subjecting prisoners to abuse leads to bad intelligence, because under torture a detainee will tell his interrogator anything to make the pain stop. Second, mistreatment of our prisoners endangers U.S. troops who might be captured by the enemy – if not in this war, then in the next. And third, prisoner abuses exact on us a terrible toll in the war of ideas, because inevitably these abuses become public. When they do, the cruel actions of a few darken the reputation of our country in the eyes of millions. American values should win against all others in any war of ideas, and we can’t let prisoner abuse tarnish our image...

So the amendment I am offering simply codifies what is current policy and reaffirms what was assumed to be existing law for years. In light of the administration’s stated commitment, it should require no change in our current interrogation and detention practices. What it would do is restore clarity on a simple and fundamental question: Does America treat people inhumanely? My answer is no, and from all I’ve seen, America’s answer has always been no.

Mr. President, let me just close by noting that I hold no brief for the prisoners. I do hold a brief for the reputation of the United States of America. We are Americans, and we hold ourselves to humane standards of treatment of people no matter how evil or terrible they may be. To do otherwise undermines our security, but it also undermines our greatness as a nation. We are not simply any other country. We stand for something more in the world – a moral mission, one of freedom and democracy and human rights at home and abroad. We are better than these terrorists, and we will we win. The enemy we fight has no respect for human life or human rights. They don’t deserve our sympathy. But this isn’t about who they are. This is about who we are. These are the values that distinguish us from our enemies.
Feel free to read the entire text. A few points of my own: Sen. McCain knows better than nearly any other American alive today what it means to be tortured. He also knows the things he said to end the abuse. He has to know from being on the recieving end just how useless the entire practice is.

Terrorists already know they will be detained and treated fairly by the Americans. They think we are weak already, this will not change their opinion. I personally do not care what happens to a man that has raised a gun to our troops, or done anything in another way that lead to the death of An American. But I do care about recieving accurate intelligence to keep our people alive. That intelligence is being derived through conventional methods, this just makes sure it stays that way. Otherwise, you have people saying whatever they think we want to hear just to make it stop. So again, I don't have moral qualms, only questions of accuracy in intelligence.
 
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Absolutely agree hiker.

As I have said in the previous posts, the US and other national intelligence and law enforcement agencies could fight terrorism more effectively by having more field agents that can speak, and read Arabic, Farsi, and Indonesian fluently.

Secondly the CIA, and our Australian equivalent (ASIO) need to readily share information with other international intelligence services. As we saw from 9/11 the terrorist plot, the individuals organised the plot in many different countries.

Thirdly, there needs to be better integration and cooperation between intelligence agencies and local law enforcement. If I recall correctly, from the 9/11 report (please correct me if I am wrong) that if the CIA and FBI had cooperated and shared information, there could have been a good chance that the 9/11 hijackers could have been apprehended.

The use of torture, or coercive practices that are meant to humilate a person's certain cultural practices, to 'gain' intelligence only further worsens the USA's reputation in the Middle East.
 

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I think the Onion had the best thing about this.

www.theonion.com said:
Friday, November 11, 2005

Bush To Veto Torture Ban?
The Senate recently approved a ban on torture with a 90-9 vote, but the White House is threatening to veto the bill. What do you think?


Anna Lyndon,
Chemical Engineer
"I never know when the White House is kidding anymore."

Joseph Teague,
Adjustment Clerk
"Unless these enemies of the United States are captured, made really angry and resentful through embarrassing torture, then released, we will never stop terrorism."

Ian Bricke,
Systems Analyst
"Perhaps they could do what they always do and just torture people anyway, then let the pictures tell the success story."
 

Old and wise

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If our Government sanctions torture, then we have no complaint when others torture us.
 
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There is a deeper issue here. For years the Pentagon, CIA, and the executive branch have been operating above the law by building torture prisons on foreign soil. The Congress found out and now they're recognizing it as the unconstitutional, unethical, illegal, and shameful practice that it is. We cannot allow anyone in the government to operate above the law and Congress will finally put a stop to it.
 

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I can't believe how many people believe tortured information can save lives. Pathetic!
 

Hoot

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Regardless of the possible ramifications of McCain's bill, I support McCain in his efforts to outlaw torture.

The United States is supposed to be above this sort of thing. The United States is supposed to be the beacon of freedom and equal rights.

For the White House to say the U.S. does not commit torture, and then ask for a provision allowing them to torture, is the utmost in hypocrisy.
 

Stu Ghatze

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Old and wise said:
If our Government sanctions torture, then we have no complaint when others torture us.




For the LAST time, ..WHO WANTS TO DEFINE WHAT REAL TORTURE IS????

Liberals use this word VERY LOOSELY; & THAT IS THE ISSUE!

Big difference between aggressive interrogation, ..& TORTURE!!



Prisoners are well fed, get Korans distributed to them, are permitted to exercise their muslim prayers. ..& some even get to choose their own preferred diet, ..IT IS NO LIE!

Even air-conditioning is piped into the prisons.

God Amighty cannot you liberals CEASE WITH THIS TORTURE BULLCRAP?


I would LOVE TO SEE the MEDIA SHOW ALL THE GRISLY PHOTOS THAT SADAAM HAS STORED FOR HIS PERSONAL ENTERTAINMENT OF HIS PRISONS, & WOULD LOVE THE REAL WORLD TO SEE FOR THEMSELVES WHAT CONSTITUTES "REAL TORTURE"!

Better yet....lets have the media show the prisons in CUBA, ..you know, Fidel's Cuba. That nice friendly grandfatherly man that the media loves to cozy up to for interviews.

The media will not go there because too many of our saintly liberals find Castro charming, ..& by golly Fidel never tortured anybody, ..so he would say, & the naive' media would believe. (thousands were tortured, & thousands WERE EXECUTED in Cuba; but since progressive socialism is so close, & dear to the liberals own hearts, ...it would not be nice to expose Fidel as ever being a practitioner of "REAL TORTURE"!

Remember the score now, ..if it has anything to do with America, ..& can be twisted into whatever THEY want something to look like, ..the media, & opportunistic liberal democrats will do it!;)
 

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I'm going to put this as plainly as possible. If you torture someone for information, the only thing you get is exactly what the victim of said torture thinks you want to hear. When you're being tortured, the only thing that you're thinking of is the easiest way to make it stop. That is why Senator McCain's bill makes sense, and that's why 90% of the Senate voted for this bill.

I do agree however, that there should be a clearer definition of torture. Using psychological means to interrogate a prisoner should definitely be allowed, but physical torture should not be.

If we can't hold ourselves to a higher standard than the terrorists we're at war with, what is the point of fighting?
 
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Old and wise said:
Are you on the War Department's payroll?
Leaving the short and humorous quips aside, how about answering his question. What is torture and what is aggressive interrogation? Where is the line? Who defines it?
 

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Stu Ghatze said:
For the LAST time, ..WHO WANTS TO DEFINE WHAT REAL TORTURE IS????
HOW ABOUT THE UNITED STATES CODE??????

"(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality"
- United States Code TITLE 18, PART I, CHAPTER 113C, Para. 2340

OR HOW ABOUT THE UNITED NATIONS??????????

"For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions." - UN Convention Against Torture (UNCAT)

I can't believe how many people still think tortured information can save lives. Pathetic!
 

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"The use of torture has been criticized not only on humanitarian and moral grounds, but on the grounds that evidence extracted by torture tends to be extremely unreliable and that the use of torture corrupts institutions which tolerate it."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture#Use_of_torture

"Willie J. Rowell, who served for thirty-six years as a C.I.D. agent, told me that the use of force or humiliation with prisoners is invariably counterproductive. “They’ll tell you what you want to hear, truth or no truth,” Rowell said. “ ‘You can flog me until I tell you what I know you want me to say.’ You don’t get righteous information.”"

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

"Craig Murray, the former British Ambassador to Uzbekistan, told me that “the U.S. accepts quite a lot of intelligence from the Uzbeks” that has been extracted from suspects who have been tortured. This information was, he said, “largely rubbish.”"

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050214fa_fact6

""Anybody with real combat experience understands that torture is counterproductive," says F. Andy Messing, a retired major in the U.S. Special Forces and a conservative leader with the ear of the president. "It is a downhill slope if you engage in it. Everyplace it has been used that I have studied — the French were big for it in Algeria — it comes back and bites you." And, it seems, keeps biting."

http://www.insightmag.com/main.cfm/include/detail/storyid/253614.html

"The various rationalizations for torture do not bear close scrutiny. Intelligence specialists concede that the information acquired by torture cannot be considered reliable."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10410.htm

"Meet, for example, retired Air Force Col. John Rothrock, who, as a young captain, headed a combat interrogation team in Vietnam. More than once he was faced with a ticking time-bomb scenario: a captured Vietcong guerrilla who knew of plans to kill Americans. What was done in such cases was "not nice," he says. "But we did not physically abuse them." Rothrock used psychology, the shock of capture and of the unexpected. Once, he let a prisoner see a wounded comrade die. Yet -- as he remembers saying to the "desperate and honorable officers" who wanted him to move faster -- "if I take a Bunsen burner to the guy's genitals, he's going to tell you just about anything," which would be pointless. Rothrock, who is no squishy liberal, says that he doesn't know "any professional intelligence officers of my generation who would think this is a good idea.""

"Or listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop.""

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html
 
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KCConservative said:
Leaving the short and humorous quips aside, how about answering his question. What is torture and what is aggressive interrogation? Where is the line? Who defines it?
You need to read the Geneva Convention and the UN Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. Both of which the U.S. agreed to.
 

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Napoleon's Nightingale said:
You need to read the Geneva Convention and the UN Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. Both of which the U.S. agreed to.
Sure but the U.S. does not abide by either of these.

Even American prisoners during WWII were treated by the Germans according to the Geneva convention. Are we worse than them?
 

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Stu Gahtze, your the man! You just keep going the way you are. You're the best thing that has happened for the Democratic Party in years. Please don't change until after 2008. Bad neo, bad neo!

Say it with me......
 

Stu Ghatze

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Billo_Really said:
Stu Gahtze, your the man! You just keep going the way you are. You're the best thing that has happened for the Democratic Party in years. Please don't change until after 2008. Bad neo, bad neo!

Say it with me......



Billy boy, ..of course I KNOW that I'm the man, ..& you are correctamundo about me not changing!

I can hardly think of a good reason to sell out my soldiers, my country, my leaders, & the values that used to make this nation great, ..as you democrats do for the sake of your liberal overseers.

Naturally, ..anybody that believes in America & its goodness & freedoms & its past moral traditions are ALWAYS labeled as a "neo-con" by the leftists & naive' democrats who have been successfully "liberalized" in thought, word & deed.

Unlike the "liberal", ..who runs from the liberal label, but only while THEY are campaigning, ..I will GLADLY wear the neo-con badge with honor if it means preserving what good values that the democrats & liberals have not yet destroyed through judicial fiat,the atheist socialist agenda, the ACLU, the media, historic revision, ..& all the rest of the liberal crap that the few, the proud, & the arrogant liberals want to ram down the majorities throats! ;)

Indeed, ..perhaps you, & the senate liberals SHOULD keep talking, & keep condemning, & keep accusing America of evil. Perhaps one day, ..all of them will yet convince the terror scum that we are deserving of a dirty bomb.

In fact, ..there are probably at least more than just a few who dwell in the democratic party senate that would agree with that terror scum in that notion, ..as do some of your righteous liberal professors, & educators!
 
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H

hipsterdufus

John McCain: Aiding and Abetting

Stu - you should like this one.

John McCain Vs. Rupert Murdoch

Yesterday (11/17) The New York Post, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch, published an op-ed piece written by Senator John McCain defending the War in Iraq, and why he voted "no" on the two amendments this week in regards to troop withdrawal, setting a timeline to bring them home, and having the President give Congress regular updates on the war.

But now McCain is livid with the Post. Why? Because he gave them the leniency to write the title of the article and they chose the sensational, yet inaccurate title, "Aiding and Abetting", to which Senator McCain responded on Hardball with Chris Matthews: "I think it's outrageous."
http://www.newshounds.us/2005/11/18/john_mccain_vs_rupert_murdoch.php
 
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