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Maybe we should do what we did in WWII in China

independentusa

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"Sell" Ukraine some A-10's and then allow ex A-10 pilots to fly them against against the Russian's for money as did the Flying Tigers in China during WWII. That 40 miles of convoy would make real good targets and the Russian's could not say it was the US fighting them. And if you read the article above, if the russian's have not been trained to fight the A-10s , they can get hurt trying to take them down with their fighters.
 

Schism

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Or Poland can pour over the border and fight for their neighbor.

Why are liberals and democrats so eager to entangle us in every military misadventure?

Let the EU go do something. Hey France, Germany, and Spain... go defend yourself you bunch of moochers.
 

Craig234

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I thought of that approach, but this issue of not provoking nuclear is real and you have to be careful playing games. Hitler didn't have nukes.
 

Court Jester

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Teams of paratroopers with .50cal BMG sniper rifles taking out the tires of the convey trucks from a distance. That with massing as many Ukranian cars, trucks, tractors and obstacles all along the roads leading into Kiev. Make a giant bottle neck, then use the few drones the Ukrainians have to strafe the supply trucks for the invasion force.

A10s would be taken down by Russian Migs and Russian anti aircraft guns toot sweet. If the Ukranians want to deter the Russians, they need to think like Ho Chi Mihn.
 

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I thought of that approach, but this issue of not provoking nuclear is real and you have to be careful playing games. Hitler didn't have nukes.

Good points, craig


That's great to see, but it's still SICKENING seeing all the horrific images coming out of Ukraine and watching the U.S. and NATO stay on the sidelines.

When I was 16 a friend and I were walking a few blocks to the local basketball courts.

We came upon a street fight where this 200-pound kid was on top of and beating a much smaller dude.

We dropped our basketballs, grabbed the big kid and threw him to the ground.

I said, "Pick on somebody your own size, asshole."

He said, "F*** you", got up and walked away.

I would've felt like absolute shit if we ignored that fight and just kept walking.

That's basically how I feel right now watching this f***in' russian madman destroy Ukraine...
 

sanman

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"Sell" Ukraine some A-10's and then allow ex A-10 pilots to fly them against against the Russian's for money as did the Flying Tigers in China during WWII. That 40 miles of convoy would make real good targets and the Russian's could not say it was the US fighting them. And if you read the article above, if the russian's have not been trained to fight the A-10s , they can get hurt trying to take them down with their fighters.


You want to do Lend-Lease, like WW2? Because you think that's going to keep a bigger war from happening? How'd that work out in the past? Remember that nukes are now a thing.

Russians have a lot of formidable weapon systems --- what's to prevent them from likewise selling some of theirs to powers hostile to the United States or its allies?
Just think of what could happen there.
 

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"Sell" Ukraine some A-10's and then allow ex A-10 pilots to fly them against against the Russian's for money as did the Flying Tigers in China during WWII. That 40 miles of convoy would make real good targets and the Russian's could not say it was the US fighting them. And if you read the article above, if the russian's have not been trained to fight the A-10s , they can get hurt trying to take them down with their fighters.
independentusa:

A-10s are tough planes but they would be sitting-ducks if not operating with the protection of air superiority. Your idea would be a suicide mission without friendly air cover to protect the Warthogs from Russian fighter planes and their missiles. It would also likely widen the war to include any country that foolishly allowed such a "War for Hire" entity to operate from the host nation's territory.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy
 

Craig234

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That's great to see, but it's still SICKENING seeing all the horrific images coming out of Ukraine and watching the U.S. and NATO stay on the sidelines.
I think that's how the world feels. It's part of the burden of our allowing nuclear weapons. We need to look for other ways to take action than to have nuclear war.
 

jnug

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I thought of that approach, but this issue of not provoking nuclear is real and you have to be careful playing games. Hitler didn't have nukes.
However Putin does depend on the logic of flag nations to make his threats. Just take his argument away. Expatriot Volunteers fighting outside the flag of their own nations are already crossing the border into Ukraine to fight for Ukraine and I expect their numbers to grow exponentially. So its already happening at some level. At some point, pilots will show up only needing planes and there is little Putin can do about it. That is also why he cannot allow even one inch of Ukraine to survive as still the sovereign nation of Ukraine. As long as one spec of Ukraine survives as sovereign Putin has lost this war and even if he takes all of the territory of Ukraine he simply cannot hold it all at once.

Putin's error being played out before us was in believing his own bullshit that he would be widely accepted as a liberator. That Ukrainians longed for the Putin puppets of the past to run their country. They didn't and they don't. They threw as many of the Putin puppets as they the could out. Where did those tossed Putin puppets go? They went to RUSSIA....naturally.

My point in contending that Putin has already lost this war is that once you get to that point in this discussion this becomes a matter of how much pain Ukrainians have to suffer to secure Putin's loss. I don't see a point where Ukrainians will simply roll over for Putin. They will fight what is really our fight as well as theirs to the last Ukrainian if that is what it takes. Is it not clear to anybody with a brain that Putin is more than a geopolitical adversary to the United States but is instead a geopolitical enemy looking to topple our own country as well as Ukraine and every other western liberal democracy as well.

Putin IS finally the nightmare that those that feared Communism all those years and still do visualized. They just picked the wrong enemy. Illiberalism was then and is today the true enemy. Illiberalism comes in many forms and evolves from many forms but at scale does not work side by side with liberal democracies unless the illiberal leaders can wall off their populations entirely from exposure to the liberal democracies. The Iron Curtain worked for awhile. But ultimately failed in that regard. We might have laughed at Soviet diplomates checking off the shopping lists given them by their wives to fill while in New York but it did not make it any less true that all the BULLSHIT Soviet propaganda aside we had lives that they wanted. We had things that they wanted. We lived on our side of that Iron Curtain and it was the side they wanted to live on as well.

Is it not obvious that Putin is trying to "wall" off his people from any real understanding of what he is doing in Ukraine so that he can continue to peddle his absurd arguments about denazification and genocide in the Donbas as having anything at all to do with his real intentions in Ukraine.

All you have to do is extend Putin's argument that he must attack to defend himself. Extend it beyond the borders of Ukraine to understand everything about Putin's intentions, his goals and his aspirations. He will not stop at Ukraine. In fact he did not even start with Ukraine. Putin will attack to steal away the hopes and desires of free peoples as much to take their territories and their assets as to keep the idea of freedom from "infecting" the people living within Russia's borders.

Ultimately, It is Putin's lesson that is finally giving us pause about Xi.
 
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Cardinal

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"Sell" Ukraine some A-10's and then allow ex A-10 pilots to fly them against against the Russian's for money as did the Flying Tigers in China during WWII. That 40 miles of convoy would make real good targets and the Russian's could not say it was the US fighting them. And if you read the article above, if the russian's have not been trained to fight the A-10s , they can get hurt trying to take them down with their fighters.
Wouldn’t that be really easy to shoot down with antiaircraft missiles?
 

independentusa

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independentusa:

A-10s are tough planes but they would be sitting-ducks if not operating with the protection of air superiority. Your idea would be a suicide mission without friendly air cover to protect the Warthogs from Russian fighter planes and their missiles. It would also likely widen the war to include any country that foolishly allowed such a "War for Hire" entity to operate from the host nation's territory.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy
Actually, if you rad the article with my OP, you will see that the A-10 can take care of itself if the fighter pilot has not been trained . The A-10's are flying at low level where speed, if not used correctly, can actually work against the fighter.
 

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Actually, if you rad the article with my OP, you will see that the A-10 can take care of itself if the fighter pilot has not been trained . The A-10's are flying at low level where speed, if not used correctly, can actually work against the fighter.
Independentusa:

I had indeed read the article which you linked to when I made my earlier comment. The article you cited is about close-in dogfights which are now rare in modern air-to-air conflicts. The Russians have radar-homing and heat-seeking missiles which can kill an A-10 from a great distance, far out of the range of a GAU-8 30mm Gatling cannon. No competent Russian pilot is going to climb into the "phone booth"with any armed plane if it can be avoided and it can be avoided. Furthermore, it takes many months or years of training and experience to bring a Warthog pilot up to the level of proficiency necessary to tangle in a close-quarters dogfight, so even if experienced Russian pilots were daft enough to get suckered into going gun-to-gun with an A-10, the inexperienced Ukrainian pilots would very likely not have the proficiency to emerge from the scrap intact. It would be a turkey-shoot for the Russian airforce.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
 

Noodlegawd

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"Sell" Ukraine some A-10's and then allow ex A-10 pilots to fly them against against the Russian's for money as did the Flying Tigers in China during WWII. That 40 miles of convoy would make real good targets and the Russian's could not say it was the US fighting them. And if you read the article above, if the russian's have not been trained to fight the A-10s , they can get hurt trying to take them down with their fighters.

Meh. We don't need to do that, or "attack the Russians." We should just have "joint military training exercises" with the Ukrainian military, and during those exercises "practice" dropping lots of bombs. Of course, we'll need a safe place to drop them. A certain stretch of highway that's not currently being used by the Ukrainian people comes to mind. What harm could that do?
 

Felis Leo

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"Sell" Ukraine some A-10's and then allow ex A-10 pilots to fly them against against the Russian's for money as did the Flying Tigers in China during WWII. That 40 miles of convoy would make real good targets and the Russian's could not say it was the US fighting them. And if you read the article above, if the russian's have not been trained to fight the A-10s , they can get hurt trying to take them down with their fighters.

There are problems with this that do put valuable hardware at risk and could lead to a more violent confrontation between Russia and NATO. Why not simply retrofit some crop-duster propeller planes to carry small bomb payloads or a .50 caliber machine gun and let the Ukrainians go all Night Witches on that convoy? They could shut off their engines, glide in at a low altitude, drop bombs, strafe the convoy and disappear over the treetops. Disabling even a few heavy trucks in such a tightly-packed convoy at various points leaves the Russians in a ruinous position.
 

PeacefulWarrior

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Good points, craig


That's great to see, but it's still SICKENING seeing all the horrific images coming out of Ukraine and watching the U.S. and NATO stay on the sidelines.

When I was 16 a friend and I were walking a few blocks to the local basketball courts.

We came upon a street fight where this 200-pound kid was on top of and beating a much smaller dude.

We dropped our basketballs, grabbed the big kid and threw him to the ground.

I said, "Pick on somebody your own size, asshole."

He said, "F*** you", got up and walked away.

I would've felt like absolute shit if we ignored that fight and just kept walking.

That's basically how I feel right now watching this f***in' russian madman destroy Ukraine...

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Too bad that the USA is the 200 pound kid.
It'll be OK brah.
 

beerftw

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"Sell" Ukraine some A-10's and then allow ex A-10 pilots to fly them against against the Russian's for money as did the Flying Tigers in China during WWII. That 40 miles of convoy would make real good targets and the Russian's could not say it was the US fighting them. And if you read the article above, if the russian's have not been trained to fight the A-10s , they can get hurt trying to take them down with their fighters.
Ukraine already had the su-25 aircraft which was comparable with the a-10 and performed the same role, they did not last. Problem is cas aircraft need to work in environments with air superiority, and ukraine does not have that, meaning if we sent them a bunch of a-10's they would likely be lost just as fast as we sent them.

The a-10 is too easy to knock out with a fighter jet, there is no training to fight them about it. Yeah they can out turn a fighter jet but a fighter jet is not going to get into a slow turning battle with a cas aircraft, especially since they lack speed, instead they will just shoot them down with longer range a2a missiles.

The only dedicated cas aircraft to really do good in a2a combat was the a-1 skyraider piston pounder, which won 2 dogfights in vietnam against mig 21's. The a-1 being a piston pounder though could out turn an a-10 but more importantly they could operate at near ground levels without losing stability unlike the a-10 which made them hard to find in the jungles of vietnam especially with the mig-21 during vietnam lacking look down shoot down and also lacking soviet supplied missiles, as the soviets did not want to send their best to supply north vietnam.
 

beerftw

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Independentusa:

I had indeed read the article which you linked to when I made my earlier comment. The article you cited is about close-in dogfights which are now rare in modern air-to-air conflicts. The Russians have radar-homing and heat-seeking missiles which can kill an A-10 from a great distance, far out of the range of a GAU-8 30mm Gatling cannon. No competent Russian pilot is going to climb into the "phone booth"with any armed plane if it can be avoided and it can be avoided. Furthermore, it takes many months or years of training and experience to bring a Warthog pilot up to the level of proficiency necessary to tangle in a close-quarters dogfight, so even if experienced Russian pilots were daft enough to get suckered into going gun-to-gun with an A-10, the inexperienced Ukrainian pilots would very likely not have the proficiency to emerge from the scrap intact. It would be a turkey-shoot for the Russian airforce.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
What you said is true about russians dogfighting an a-10, however when it comes to other aircraft the russians like to get down and dirty. The premier russian air superiority fighter the flanker series is slightly inferior to the f-15 in long range fighting and slightly superior to the f-15 in close range fighting and turning.

Their aircraft favor getting close and personal when it is against other fighter aircraft, but against a low and slow aircraft like an a-10 or their own su-25 they will always lose the turning battle, so they would engage them at a distance knowing they were not designed to survive fights against other aircraft but rather were meant for cas roles where air superiority was already established.
 
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