SmokeAndMirrors
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No, I doubt under appreciated is the appropriate description. It's more likely that people were annoyed by the arrogance expressed by those who have decided not to have kids, as if they are somehow superior to those who chose differently. Some people even attempted to argue that those who remain childless have higher IQs. Of course such an argument is completely ridiculous.
No, it's factual, and it's correlated with a very long course of education. IQ is not fixed. And if you'd stop taking it personally long enough to read some of the sources presented to you, you'd have seen that desire for children is not much lower for the voluntarily childless than it is for most other women. And, the explicitly childfree are a sufficiently small minority that we don't have much effect on the statistics.
Most women who remain childless do so because they've decided something else is more important, not because they don't want kids. I've even had women tell me they grieved this decision - even though it was the right one for them.
Women like me who actively don't want kids are a minority within a minority.
Your sources were not convincing. The correlation between IQ and having children is simply not strong enough for any real conclusion.
It is strong and consistent in just about every study ever done on the matter. You have been provided with dozens of sources from several posters.
Like I said, IQ is not fixed. Most childless women decided their educational/career goals were incompatible with having children, not that they didn't want children. They display the expected results of that decision. There's nothing even the least bit odd or surprising about it.
I don't know why you take this so seriously and personally.
Disagreeing with you isn't taking it personally. I have already agreed that people who have few or no children are more educated. But not more intelligent. There is a difference.
It is strong and consistent in just about every study ever done on the matter. You have been provided with dozens of sources from several posters.
Like I said, IQ is not fixed. Most childless women decided their educational/career goals were incompatible with having children, not that they didn't want children. They display the expected results of that decision. There's nothing even the least bit odd or surprising about it.
I don't know why you take this so seriously and personally.
edited and linked.
it was about social stability, and property was in there too - however, fundamentally you are incorrect, the primary purpose has been and remains today provision of and for the next generation. that whole, darwinian, seeking-the-best-model-to-pass-on-ones-genes-thing.
actually only Hillary Clinton says this. She claimed it was an "old African saying" for her book.... but said saying has yet to actually surface from Africa.
in reality, it takes parents. emphasis on the plural. children with single parents are more likely to drop out of school (and become single parents), get addicted to drugs, commit suicide, and become violent criminals
These days, it seems that almost anything lowers people's IQs. Lead water, breeding, and being spanked as a child. :roll:
Spanking Debate: Do Spanked Kids Have Lower IQs? - TIME
If someone has children instead of obtaining an education, they will do poorly on standardized testing. But imo, having kids, taking care of them, maintaining bills, and a home all while also obtaining an education makes one's not only smarter but also having more fortitude and time management skills. It turns out that being the New Age, vegan college student isn't so impressive.
That's lovely, but it makes a whole lot of assumptions, starting with the notion that modern marriage implies sexual exclusivity. That's not always the case. And again, if sexual exclusivity is what you're after as an individual or a couple, I still don't see how a marriage license will protect you from a straying spouse. The reasons people cheat are varied, but more often than not, it's because something is not right with the relationship at its very core. No license in the world is going to fix something that was broken or fatally cracked from the very start.
Yeah. Isn't that just what I said? IQ can be augmented by education? Like 3 times?
That correlation exists because women who have kids are less likely to continue their education after they've had them. What the stats are like for women who do, I don't know.
These days, it seems that almost anything lowers people's IQs. Lead water, breeding, and being spanked as a child. :roll:
Spanking Debate: Do Spanked Kids Have Lower IQs? - TIME
No. In the past, you have consistently argued that having children is directly correlated to having lower intelligence. I'm glad that you no longer believe such nonsense.
It's funny how different people are. See, I would be heartbroken if anyone pulled this stunt on me. "If you really loved me, you would....". That to me would mean that he doesn't have any faith whatsoever in my feelings and commitment for him.
Interesting concept of "commitment" you have. So does this mean if I have friends that I'm close to and that I love and that I rely on it, I am not emotionally committed to my partner?
Wouldn't you say emotional commitment is as, or possibly more, important than a sexual commitment?
Sex is the one thing where we expect total exclusivity in our modern relationships. Nowhere else. And why, exactly? How is someone being in a polyamorous relationship indicative of a lack of commitment? I don't think it's a coincidence that sex also happens to be our biggest area of culture confusion and shame.
Every person is different, and therefore every relationship is different. Acknowledging and working with these differences is how we mature.
I can't say I'd ever try to pull off polyamory, simply because I don't feel I'm able to spend the time required to pull that off. But that's the limiting factor: time (or more specifically, time left over after the amount of time I feel I need for myself). Nothing else. I'm not 7 years old any more and I don't need someone to say to me "Do you promise we're the bestest best friends ever and I'll always be your bestest best friend and you'll never have a bester friend?"
I'm ok with facing the reality that I am not the only person on earth, and that, indeed, I am not the only person worth loving on earth.
Leave the jealousy and insecurity to the gods...
I'm not so sure about that. Honestly, I haven't noticed any difference in the cheating habits of people whether they're married or just living together.
That depends. Was she willing to give him any amount of custody?
If not, I can understand that. I don't know whether it's right or not, but it does smack of hypocrisy to say "I don't want you to have anything to do with our kids, but I want you to pay for them."
I've seen a lot of women do that. I don't know whether or not this one did. Maybe she didn't - maybe he was the vindictive psycho in this case. That is certainly a possibility.
It was her choice not to give herself any means of professional ability. It doesn't stop being her choice just because she's married, or when she gets divorced. If you want to take that risk, it's on you.
However, there may be a place for an entirely new kind of system that helps such women gain skills to support themselves. But making the man pay for her living after a divorce is not the ethical, logical, or reasonable answer.
I gave you my point of view. I listed a number of things that explain why marriage makes no sense for someone like me. I honestly don't see what's so arrogant about asking you if you can think of any reason why I should get married. Sorry if you got offended, but it was the last thing I intended to do.
Sure it does. I'm just saying the man getting a better turn than he deserves is a lot less common.
Really, how many men do you know (sane, fit men) who have equal custody of their children (assuming the woman is also sane and fit), and/or who didn't basically lose everything in the divorce?
I don't know any. Not one.
Apparently you do. I'm sure they exist. And with so many people in this country, I'm sure they exist in great numbers. But they are definitely a minority. Which do you know more of? Men who came away with a fair ruling, or better than they deserved, or women?
Maybe it's changing in some places. That's also a possibility. But it's not everywhere.
Also... despite the fact that she was a housewife, why is she entitled to continued financial support after the divorce? Maybe she can't maintain her current standard of living on her skills, but here's the thing: she's not part of a partnership anymore. She is not entitled to another dime of his money once the papers are signed. She can find a job. If it means she has to give up stuff she can no longer afford, well... that's the price of going it alone. I'm sure I could have a much better standard of living with someone else either making more than me or pooling their money with mine too, but that doesn't mean I'm entitled to it.
No, that's not it at all. I'm very committed to my BF and it sure looks like I'm going to love this man for a very long time. We have the coolest thing going. I just don't need to be married to him for this relationship to mean the world to me. :shrug:
Cohabiting men are four times as likely as husbands to be unfaithful, and cohabiting women are eight times more likely to cheat as married women.
also worth noting is that cohabitating women are three times as likely to be abused, and three times as likely to be depressed as married women.
The links do not prove your claims. That it is "exceedingly difficult without it to raise healthy, well-adjusted, successful children" without marriage, or that men and women need each other in a one to one ratio.
Nor are the fact that men comes out better than non-married men proves that this type of marriage is the best for men, polygamy has been practiced in a majority of the world: Asia, Middle East, Africa, American Indians - only in Western Europe, with the emergence of Rome and Catholicism was marriage made to be a one-man-one-woman thing.
Well, you have to provide the history to prove your claim that its "primary purpose has been and remains today provision of and for the next generation".
In some cultures, such as Chinese, and even the English, children are a mean to continue family prestige, not an end in and of themselves.
That's why the English aristocrats wanted "an heir and a spare", the older son can die, so long as there's another one to take on the family title. That's why in China, parents would kill their own daughters in hope for a son who can then pass on the family name.
You are taking a very rosy, short-term view of marriage and parenthood.
Actually it's science. Just because Clinton said it doesn't mean none other has said it or that I heard it from her. And just because two-parents household is better than single-parent household, doesn't mean nuclear family is the best type of family for raising children. Children benefits from a larger and varied social groups. In place of extended family, we now have playgroups and kindergarten to give children the environment for social interaction to aid their development. In cultures where extended family is still the norm, such as Asia, you don't see the children lacking behind in their academics, and in fact, Asians tend to have less crimes than other groups.
And it doesn't take parents, plural or otherwise, it just takes adults that the child can be attached to and feel secure around, who fully interact with the child. Grandparents and older siblings can raise children successfully, adoptive parents were strange adults before they became "parents". The problem with single-parent household is that the single parent often doesn't have time and resources to look after the children properly, it doesn't mean not having two "parents" is detrimental by itself, even if the single-parent can provide adequate time and resources as well as the social environment where the child can interact with a variety of people. That's a logical jump you made that has no prove.
Because of community property law, maybe she supported him before, maybe she gave up a career when they married - there are many reasons why one partner should get alimony even when there aren't children involved. Nor it is always men who pay it: When ex-husbands get alimony - MSN Money
Cohabiting men are four times as likely as husbands to be unfaithful, and cohabiting women are eight times more likely to cheat as married women.
also worth noting is that cohabitating women are three times as likely to be abused, and three times as likely to be depressed as married women.
I'm not so sure about that. Honestly, I haven't noticed any difference in the cheating habits of people whether they're married or just living together.
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