LeftyHenry
DP Veteran
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Which would make the Iraqi population believe they are truly being overrun with an invading force to oppress them which ends up creating more animosity within the population which creates more insurgents...Che said:Everyone either says we should get out of Iraq or stay in with the low amount of troops we have. People don't seem to realize that the less troops we have in there, the longer it's going to take and the more casualties we're going to accumalate.
I say instead of cutting troops from 150,000 to 130,000. We get every male 18-21 at first to register for a draft.Service would be no more than 3 years. Instead of having a small amount of trrops, we could raise it to 500,000 and overwhelm the insurgents. That way we can finish the job faster and get back to real problems that we face here in America.
FinnMacCool said:Er. . .I would never support a draft. Ever. King Bush really put us in quite a pickle didn't? Despite the fact that I disagree with going to war there origianlly, his strategy was so half assed that the insurgency is actually growing rather then being reduced. Its like a second vietnam.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:Ya because the U.S. took Hanoi in a week right? :roll:
Che said:It hasn't been a week like we expected. It's been three years. When we went in there we expected them to bow down to our democrazy. They didn't. None of the generals thought it would take long but it did. We should finish it off and work to send more troops and more military advisors in ther to train there troops and destroy the insurgency. That way instead of us being there for 10 years (as most insurgency have tended to last these days according to General Casey) we will be there for maybe 2 years more.
This plan isn't popular as Cons would rather have the poor fight there wars then to be prone to serving themselves and Libs don't want to take any iniatives on the war. This is a good solid way to get us out of the craphole Bush got us into.
Besides I'd love to see the look on those pro-war cons when they get drafted :mrgreen:
Insurgencies alone can't win wars only militaries can, we took Baghdad in a week the Iraqi military is totally destroyed and the resistance is now made up of people who blow themselves up to kill civilians,
I guess you don't consider the IRA an insurgency then?they can't do any real damage to our military and they know it, insurgencies alone always fail in the end, it's historical fact it just takes about 8-10 years.
FinnMacCool said:Inaccurate. There are in fact three types of insurgents. 1) The terrorists 2) Saddamists 3) The insurrectionists
I guess you don't consider the IRA an insurgency then?
Trajan Octavian Titus said:Insurgencies alone can't win wars only militaries can, we took Baghdad in a week the Iraqi military is totally destroyed and the resistance is now made up of people who blow themselves up to kill civilians, they can't do any real damage to our military and they know it, insurgencies alone always fail in the end, it's historical fact it just takes about 8-10 years.
Che said:Real damage isn't 2,000+ casualties right? How many more do we need by Trajan standards?
The IRA wasn't successful Northern Ireland still belongs to the British, the original IRA wore uniforms and fought real battles it was an actual Irish Republican Army they fought under Michael Collins that's how they got a free Ireland, but the new IRA has not been successful because their goal was to free Belfast and Northern Ireland to unify with the rest of the Island and in that goal they haven't been successful.
FinnMacCool said:The IRA fighting against the British for Northern Ireland weren't the real IRA.
The Old Ira (the real IRA being led by Michael Collins) was an insurgency that was ultimately succesful in establish a free state through gurrelia tactics. Michael Collins wore a uniform during the Civil War but before that, his followers wore regular clothing and used gurrelia tactics.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:Relatively speaking no. Though the casualies are tragic they have little to no impact on the fighting capability of the U.S. military. And the only way you can win a war is by ending your enemies ability to wage battle. In that regard the insurgency is little more than an annoyance, they have no real fighting capacity, and alone it is impossible for them to win. The only way they could win is if the U.S. pulls out on its own accord. The insurgency hasn't won a single battle and all they do is terrorize the Iraqi populace, they don't effect the fighting capacity of the U.S. military.
Che said:Right well the ****ing annoyance, as you call them are keeping us there. If you 10 guys vs 1 or 1 vs 1 which battle is going to be easier? The 10 vs 1 battle is. So because of this I think we should all be patriots like the cons who support the war but don't support a draft are, and swamp the insurgency until they give up.
BTW we actually have lost. There were a bunch of battles in Falluja, but recently guerilla forces took an Iraqi out post killing 20. A bunch of cheap shots but you have to recognize them and find out how to better stop them.
I'll willing to let the miltary decide...some aren't...galenrox said:If I was drafted I'd go, no questions asked. I'd prefer not to, obviously, but still, I think this plan has some merit to it.
That being said, the argument cnredd presented has merit to it too. The question raised then is when is it maintaining strength to stare down the terrorists, and when is it simply sacrificing our soldiers?
galenrox said:To be perfectly frank, I don't trust the generals that Bush keeps around and empowers. Throughout his presidency he has rewarded telling him the what he wants to hear truth far more than he ever has rewarded the actual truth. I think if he wants to pull out some of the troops for political reasons, the generals will justify it for him, and so on.
That being said, you're right. People in the military understand whats going on, and the appropriate strategy to win in this situation far better than you or I.
galenrox said:yes, because I said that. No really, I said that, see, look
Huh? Oh right, it's empty because I NEVER SAID THAT!
Your speculation flies in the face of logic...galenrox said:To be perfectly frank, I don't trust the generals that Bush keeps around and empowers. Throughout his presidency he has rewarded telling him the what he wants to hear truth far more than he ever has rewarded the actual truth. I think if he wants to pull out some of the troops for political reasons, the generals will justify it for him, and so on.
That being said, you're right. People in the military understand whats going on, and the appropriate strategy to win in this situation far better than you or I.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:I'm just wondering why you consider the Generals who say that the ground situation in Iraq doesn't call for more troops are the ones who are lying and the ones who say that there is a need for more troops are the ones telling the truth unless of course you believe the Democrats talking points?
galenrox said:Did I say that either?
.
Galenrox said:To be perfectly frank, I don't trust the generals that Bush keeps around and empowers. Throughout his presidency he has rewarded telling him the what he wants to hear truth far more than he ever has rewarded the actual truth.
What you said seems right...NOW...galenrox said:It seems to come down to how much you trust the president to act a-politically. If I was a political strategist I'd tell Bush to do exactly what he's been doing with Iraq, and then announce some significant amount of troop withdrawl at the state of the union for later in the year, and then actually do it towards the end of August, for the reason that people will think what you're thinking. People will be happy, cause troops have been withdrawn, and also be proud of the president because he showed that he was a strong leader in the face of adversity.
I wouldn't trust him either if I believed everything thrown at us from the MSM or other media outlets...What makes you not trust him?...And therefore, the decision of the country to elect, then re-elect him?galenrox said:The essential difference between our perceptions about this is solely that you seem to trust Bush, while I don't trust him at all. I don't really put anything past him, I think he is willing to do anything, regardless of the reprucussions, for political power. We both know that Karl Rove is a political genius, and so if I can see the political merit in doing what he's doing, God knows that he has too.
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