Manchin is Bad At Math

[jonny5]

Chuck Schumer and Joe Manchin have a deal to raise taxes, cut the deficit, spend money on climate change

The slimmed-down version of Build Back Better reportedly hikes taxes by over $730 billion, with $300 billion of that money to e used for reducing the federal budget deficit.

reason.com

For evidence, he thinks raising taxes and spending 370bn on climate change will pay off 30 trillion in debt. Even if they got 700bn in revenue, 300bn after spending wouldnt do much to the trillion dollar deficit which doubles in the next 10 years under current law. He also wants to spend EVEN more on healthcare via subsidies. And all this during recession and inflation with ever shrinking labor force. Its insanity.

 

[Callen]

Chuck Schumer and Joe Manchin have a deal to raise taxes, cut the deficit, spend money on climate change

The slimmed-down version of Build Back Better reportedly hikes taxes by over $730 billion, with $300 billion of that money to e used for reducing the federal budget deficit.

reason.com

For evidence, he thinks raising taxes and spending 370bn on climate change will pay off 30 trillion in debt. Even if they got 700bn in revenue, 300bn after spending wouldnt do much to the trillion dollar deficit which doubles in the next 10 years under current law. He also wants to spend EVEN more on healthcare via subsidies. And all this during recession and inflation with ever shrinking labor force. Its insanity.

Larry Summers is pretty good at math and he is the one who proved to Manchin this was not inflationary. Pretty sure nobody said this bill would pay off the deficit. Reducing prescription drug prices is definitely anti-inflationary and should have been done years ago.

 

[tshade]

 

[jonny5]

Ok theyre calling it the "Inflation Reduction Act" lol

700b revenue through 'tax reform' and 'drug pricing reform', ie tax increases and price caps
369b for climate change
64b for healthcare subsidies

Somehow raising taxes and spending money reduces inflation, increases growth, lowers gas prices, gets russia out of ukraine, costs nothing, and might even help you lose weight.

Keep in mind this is over 10 years, so the actual fantasy deficit reduction is 30bn a year. The deficit is currently 1 trillion. The increase in interest on the debt alone will be more than 30bn this year.

 

[Greenbeard]

Ok theyre calling it the "Inflation Reduction Act" lol

700b revenue through 'tax reform' and 'drug pricing reform', ie tax increases and price caps
369b for climate change
64b for healthcare subsidies

Somehow raising taxes and spending money reduces inflation, increases growth, lowers gas prices, gets russia out of ukraine, costs nothing, and might even help you lose weight.

Keep in mind this is over 10 years, so the actual fantasy deficit reduction is 30bn a year. The deficit is currently 1 trillion. The increase in interest on the debt alone will be more than 30bn this year.

Weird that ‘deficit hawks’ always oppose shrinking the deficit. Anyway, negotiating lower drug prices is broadly popular. Raising revenue is common sense. And quibbling over $64B in premium subsidies after the ACA left about a trillion dollars in extra unanticipated budget space over its first decade? C’mon.

 

[jonny5]

Heres the legislative text of this poorly named bill. 700 pages of stuff that no one will read before voting for it.

https://www.democrats.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/inflation_reduction_act_of_2022.pdf

They even had to put in a section that they dont 'intend' to raise taxes on middle class. Even though we know higher taxes on corporation will be passed on to consumers in prices (ie increase inflation).

) NO TAX INCREASES ON CERTAIN TAX13 PAYERS.—Nothing in this subsection is intended to 14 increase taxes on any taxpayer with a taxable in15 come below $400,000.

Of course you have to get your equity in. 25 million for OMB to "track labor, equity, and environmental standards and performance. "

2bn for "Neighborhood access and equity grant program.’’ to " assess transportation equity or pollution impacts and develop local anti-displacement policies and community benefit agreements;"

And it increase oil prices by adding more oil regulations including royalties on leases, rental rates, fees.

 

[jonny5]

Good news, Dems not getting their own pet projects make sink this bill.

"The recent information about what has been made available in this deal…is shameful, I'm embarrassed by it. I'm angered by it," said Rep. Maxine Waters (D–Calif.) during a press call today. "The way I'm feeling right now, I'm not committed to voting for [the bill]. I have a lot I have to say to leadership."

On the other hand it might make the bill even worse. Waters wants 150bn for housing welfare.

 

[JayDubya]

Chuck Schumer and Joe Manchin have a deal to raise taxes, cut the deficit, spend money on climate change

The slimmed-down version of Build Back Better reportedly hikes taxes by over $730 billion, with $300 billion of that money to e used for reducing the federal budget deficit.

reason.com

For evidence, he thinks raising taxes and spending 370bn on climate change will pay off 30 trillion in debt. Even if they got 700bn in revenue, 300bn after spending wouldnt do much to the trillion dollar deficit which doubles in the next 10 years under current law. He also wants to spend EVEN more on healthcare via subsidies. And all this during recession and inflation with ever shrinking labor force. Its insanity.

Democrats gonna Democrat. No such thing as a “good one,” just a less bad one.

 

[jonny5]

Democrats gonna Democrat. No such thing as a “good one,” just a less bad one.

Same for GOP at this point. No one seems to actually try and reduce the deficit. Just keep taking and spending more.

 

[rahl]

Chuck Schumer and Joe Manchin have a deal to raise taxes, cut the deficit, spend money on climate change

The slimmed-down version of Build Back Better reportedly hikes taxes by over $730 billion, with $300 billion of that money to e used for reducing the federal budget deficit.

reason.com

For evidence, he thinks raising taxes and spending 370bn on climate change will pay off 30 trillion in debt. Even if they got 700bn in revenue, 300bn after spending wouldnt do much to the trillion dollar deficit which doubles in the next 10 years under current law. He also wants to spend EVEN more on healthcare via subsidies. And all this during recession and inflation with ever shrinking labor force. Its insanity.

This is almost as bad as righties are at math. They think of you cut taxes (revenue) you get more revenue lol.

 

[jonny5]

Proof from this own mouth that he's bad at math (and economics)

"Why should Americans believe you now when you say this new bill will not exacerbate inflation?" Baier asked.

"I’ll make sure I don't make that mistake again," Manchin said. "Bottom line, I'll make sure I didn't make that mistake again."

Manchin admits 'mistake' saying past spending bill wouldn't cause inflation, hopes he isn't wrong again

Sen. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va., is pushing for a new spending package, but admitted Sunday that he made a "mistake" in saying the American Rescue Plan would not cause inflation.

www.foxnews.com

He also doesnt understand taxes

Manchin also stated emphatically that the new bill will not raise taxes, even though groups like Americans for Tax Reform claim it will.

"It does not raise taxes," Manchin said, explaining that "all it does is close loopholes."

"loopholes" reduce taxable income. Thus closing 'loopholes' would increase taxable income (raise taxes). How does he think its going to increase revenue without raising taxes?

 

[longview]

This is almost as bad as righties are at math. They think of you cut taxes (revenue) you get more revenue lol.

You mean like the way JFK did?
Revenue Act of 1964

Impact​

The stated goals of the tax cuts were to raise personal incomes, increase consumption, and increase capital investments. Evidence shows that these goals were exceeded by large degree with the combination of tax cuts and domestic spending programs President Johnson advocated, such as Medicare.[14] Unemployment fell from 5.2% in 1964 to 4.5% in 1965, and fell to 3.8% in 1966.[14] [15] Initial estimates predicted a loss of revenue as a result of the tax cuts, however, tax revenue increased in 1964 and 1965

 

[rahl]

You mean like the way JFK did?
Revenue Act of 1964

what was the rate when he cut it, and then the rate after?

If you collect something at 25%, and then cut the rate at which you collect to 22%, you will collect less of that thing because...............................math.

 

[longview]

what was the rate when he cut it, and then the rate after?

If you collect something at 25%, and then cut the rate at which you collect to 22%, you will collect less of that thing because...............................math.

Only if you are cutting from a fixed pie!
if the actions cause the pie top become larger, then the 22% portions could have a larger actual value
than the 25% portion of the smaller pie.
JFK understood this, and so have many others.

 

[rahl]

Only if you are cutting from a fixed pie!

which we are. Money is finite. It increases, only due to population increases and inflation

if the actions cause the pie top become larger, then the 22% portions could have a larger actual value

It doesn't cause it to become larger.

JFK understood this, and so have many others.

When the rates were near 90%, cuts would of course spur short term economic activity. When the rates were much lower, as they were under reagan, bush, bush, trump, when you cut rates, it does not spur economic activity. It just causes you to collect less revenue, and thus explode the deficit. Which is why that is exactly what happened, every single time righties have tried it, going back to the mid 80's

 

[longview]

which we are. Money is finite. It increases, only due to population increases and inflation

It doesn't cause it to become larger.

When the rates were near 90%, cuts would of course spur short term economic activity. When the rates were much lower, as they were under reagan, bush, bush, trump, when you cut rates, it does not spur economic activity. It just causes you to collect less revenue, and thus explode the deficit. Which is why that is exactly what happened, every single time righties have tried it, going back to the mid 80's

Normally the pie is growing. Consider that US revenue seems to get an average of an 8% raise every year,
and has done so for over two centuries. So the pie is in no way fixed.
how about GDP? Still not a fixed pie.

 

[rahl]

Normally the pie is growing. Consider that US revenue seems to get an average of an 8% raise every year,
and has done so for over two centuries. So the pie is in no way fixed.
how about GDP? Still not a fixed pie.
View attachment 67404441

yes, fixed other than population growth and inflation, as you were shown.

 

[longview]

yes, fixed other than population growth and inflation, as you were shown.

No GDP growth is happening even per capita, I am not sure why it is so difficult to understand that our economy
grows, and not just because of population, but real actual growth.

 

[rahl]

No GDP growth is happening even per capita, I am not sure why it is so difficult to understand that our economy
grows, and not just because of population, but real actual growth.

yes, as population grows and inflation. MONEY does not magically grow. GDP does not magically grow because you cut income tax rates from 27% to 22%. All that happens is you collect less revenue, because................................math

 

[longview]

yes, fixed other than population growth and inflation, as you were shown.

No GDP growth is happening even per capita, I am not sure why it is so difficult to understand that our economy
grows, and not just because of population, but real actual growth.

yes, as population grows and inflation. MONEY does not magically grow. GDP does not magically grow because you cut income tax rates from 27% to 22%. All that happens is you collect less revenue, because................................math

The US economy has seen enormous growth, exceeding both population growth and inflation.
Money does not magically grow, but capital when allowed to work, creates jobs, which pay wages(and taxes),
and those wages are cycled back into home purchases, appliance purchases, vehicle purchases, ect.
The value add to companies adding the employees, is roughly three times the cost of the employee.
those increased profits are also taxed.

 

[rahl]

No GDP growth is happening even per capita, I am not sure why it is so difficult to understand that our economy
grows, and not just because of population, but real actual growth.

yes, as population grows as well as inflation.

The US economy has seen enormous growth, exceeding both population growth and inflation.

Due to pent up demand, which has caused inflation.

Money does not magically grow, but capital when allowed to work, creates jobs, which pay wages(and taxes),
and those wages are cycled back into home purchases, appliance purchases, vehicle purchases, ect.
The value add to companies adding the employees, is roughly three times the cost of the employee.
those increased profits are also taxed.

and because you cut the rate at which you collect them, you collect less of what you otherwise would have. Because...................math

 

[longview]

yes, as population grows as well as inflation.

Due to pent up demand, which has caused inflation.

and because you cut the rate at which you collect them, you collect less of what you otherwise would have. Because...................math

Again if the pie is growing, you actually can collect more from a smaller portion of the pie.
Because of math!

 

[rahl]

Again if the pie is growing, you actually can collect more from a smaller portion of the pie.

no, you can't. Math is math.

Because of math!

math says if you collect 22% of something, instead of 27% of something, you collected 5% less than you would have. Lol, jesus christ.

 

[longview]

no, you can't. Math is math.

math says if you collect 22% of something, instead of 27% of something, you collected 5% less than you would have. Lol, jesus christ.

Sorry, it does not work that way if the total is expanding!
If the economy is increasing, you can cut the percentage, and maintain the same income.

 

[rahl]

Sorry, it does not work that way if the total is expanding!

yes, it does.

If the economy is increasing, you can cut the percentage, and maintain the same income.

which means you are collecting less revenue, because......................math