Man ambushes Firefighters responding to a fire.

[Capster78]

Opinions are worthless - show the facts that support these comments.

I already have, as I stated before and provided a like to back it up.. 75% of all homicides by firearms are by people with criminal records against others with criminal records. Which points to gang and drug violence being the culprits. Not only does that prove that only 25% of crimes are committed outside of that, it also proves that an area that is heavily armed is not safe from others who are also armed.

Ok, so here are some numbers. In 2000 there were 12,632 homicides related to firearms. If 75% of those were between criminals that is about 9474. That leaves a mere 3,158 people who would fall into "others". I would imagine people killed in the robbery of a store and other offenses other than robbing a house is a good portion of that as well. But lets just say that 3,158 people were killed by criminals during a robbery. How many homes exist in America. Take 3,185 and divide it by that and see what kind of insignificant number you get. Wait.. I will do it for you. There are roughtly 125 million homes in the US. So that means the chance of you being killed by someone entering your house with a firearm is about 0.000025%.

 

[Jerry]

Apparently there was a big issue with police entering peoples residents and searching illegally right? So a law had to be passed to allow people to shoot officers they felt were searching their home illegally because as you said, you can't sue the officer for illegal search and seizure. Well, those of us who are tired of all the gun violence are being given no other option but to ban guns outright because gun owners don't want any type of restrictions on firearms at all.

How are these 2 similar for you to then draw a comparison between them?

 

[Jerry]

Assures you of what? Are you assured that because of the sloppy restrictions or even lack their of, your right to own a gun makes it ALOT easier for someone to obtain one illegally.

You haven't shown this to be true. I suspect you keep saying it in the hopes it will become a meme.

 

[Paratrooper]

I've got an idea! Let's ban murder! Surely that will stop them from happening since bans work so well.

 

[Jerry]

I already have, as I stated before and provided a like to back it up.

You gave a link to Wiki, which isn't a credible source to begin with, the number in question is 9 years old, so it's out of date and thus worthless, and only applied to one city, which makes it an "unrepresentative sample".

You should show how the Brady Bill lowered crime while it was in force.

 

[johnny_rebson]

We just need to arm the firefighters.

 

[Capster78]

How are these 2 similar for you to then draw a comparison between them?

You have two situations which are only solvable by going to an extreme.

 

[Capster78]

You gave a link to Wiki, which isn't a credible source to begin with, the number in question is 9 years old, so it's out of date and thus worthless, and only applied to one city, which makes it an "unrepresentative sample".

You should show how the Brady Bill lowered crime while it was in force.

It actually was the lowest of 3 numbers reported by major cities. College professors may not consider Wiki a reputable source, but it is right more than it is wrong. I think much of that also has to do with those who want to keep libraries around. They don't want the internet to make libraries obsolete so they want students to provide references from books which can be as biased or even more biased than the internet in some cases.

 

[Jerry]

You have two situations which are only solvable by going to an extreme.

I don't see that at all....I don't get what your saying. You said before that gun owners don't want any restrictions on firearms, but that isn't true. He gladly accept the limitations mentioned in Heller, limitations such as 'no felons', and 'no insane', and even 'must be 18/21', as reasonable. We also accept mandatory training and licensing as reasonable compromises, provided the other side is also making a compromise in our favor just as we are in theirs.

Each individual restriction is examined by it's own unique merits and flaws. Just because a pro-gun person supports owning machine guns does not mean that person wants felons to be able to buy said machine gun.

An unlawful search is illegal. Lawful ownership of a machine gun is not. An illegal search damages you, my ownership of a modern M249 does not.

It actually was the lowest of 3 numbers reported by major cities. College professors may not consider Wiki a reputable source, but it is right more than it is wrong. I think much of that also has to do with those who want to keep libraries around. They don't want the internet to make libraries obsolete so they want students to provide references from books which can be as biased or even more biased than the internet in some cases.

I wasn't aware we were talking about any kind of source other than one which can be freely accessed by anyone online. There is a wealth of credible data which you need to debates with evidence....

Spoiler

Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive
Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?
A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence.
Din B. Kates* and Gary Mauser**

The study, which just appeared in Volume 30, Number 2 of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694), set out to answer the question in its title: "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence." Contrary to conventional wisdom, and the sniffs of our more sophisticated and generally anti-gun counterparts across the pond, the answer is "no." And not just no, as in there is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, but an emphatic no, showing a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases.

The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:

Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).

EDITORIAL: Guns decrease murder rates
In Washington, the best defense is self-defense
By THE WASHINGTON TIMES

More guns in law-abiding hands mean less crime. The District of Columbia proves the point.

<snip>

Few who lived in Washington during the 1970s can forget the upswing in crime that started right after the ban was originally passed. In the five years before the 1977 ban, the murder rate fell from 37 to 27 murders per 100,000. In the five years after the gun ban went into effect, the murder rate rose back up to 35. One fact is particularly hard to ignore: D.C.'s murder rate fluctuated after 1976 but only once fell below what it was in 1976 before the ban. That aberration happened years later, in 1985.

This correlation between the D.C. gun ban and diminished safety was not a coincidence. Look at the Windy City. Immediately after Chicago banned handguns in 1982, the murder rate, which had been falling almost continually for a decade, started to rise. Chicago's murder rate rose relative to other large cities as well. The phenomenon of higher murder rates after gun bans are passed is not just limited to the United States. Every single time a country has passed a gun ban, its murder rate soared.

<snip>

Two Little Square Black Dogs: I do not have a gun... I am not a murderer

....The LA Times had an article about the The European disdain for America violence but shouldn't spend too much time congratulating themselves. In 2000 the rate at which people where assaulted was higher in England, Scotland, Finland, Denmark and Sweden than in The United States. In the decade since England banned all private possessions of gun the number of gun crimes has gone up.Some of the worst examples of mass gun violence has occurred in Europe from students and teachers killed in Germany, 14 legislators shot in Switzerland to 8 city council members being shot outside of Paris.

Just recently a taxi driver in Cumbria, England killed 12 people and wounded 11.

UK is violent crime capital of Europe - Telegraph

Analysis of figures from the European Commission showed a 77 per cent increase in murders, robberies, assaults and sexual offenses in the UK since Labour came to power.

The total number of violent offenses recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa.

[The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.
By James Slack
Last updated at 12:14 AM on 3rd July 2009

In the decade following the party's election in 1997, the number of recorded violent attacks soared by 77 per cent to 1.158million - or more than two every minute.

The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:

• The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
• It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
• The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
• It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.

But it is the naming of Britain as the most violent country in the EU that is most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.

In the UK, there are 2,034 offenses per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677.

The intentional homicide rate shows North America is lower than Eastern Europe, and also lower than the world average, and FAR lower than MANY other regions in the world: List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

England's Homicide Rate

The homicide rate (per capita) in England and Wales was 9.1 in the year 1900, a time when gun control laws were relatively lax.
In 2009, when gun laws are of draconian strictness, the homicide rate is 14.1
This is from an official parliament report.

GunCite-Gun Accidents

Fatal gun accidents declined by almost sixty percent from 1975 to 1995, even though the number of guns per capita increased by almost forty percent.

Fatal gun accidents involving children (aged 0-14) also fell significantly, from 495 in 1975, to under 250 in 1995. More children die from accidental drowning’s or burns than from gun accidents.

(Gun supply statistics are from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, gun accident rates from the National Safety Council).

England has worse crime rate than the US, says Civitas study

England and Wales has one of the worst crime rates among developed nations for rapes, burglaries and robberies, a major report has found.

The study found that England and Wales ranked highly in a survey of crime rates among more than 30 developed counries, based on the frequency of crimes recorded by police for every 100,000 people.

• For burglaries and robberies England and Wales had more crimes per 100,000 people than the USA. England and Wales was ranked sixth for burglaries – worse than Sweden, Slovenia, the Czech Republic, Turkey, Italy and Chile - and for robberies, England and Wales was seventh.
• For rapes, England and Wales was ranked ninth, worse than the likes of Norway, Poland, Sweden, Australia and Germany, while for car thefts, England and Wales was eighth – worse than Slovenia, Chile, Mexico, Greece and the Czech Republic.

Nearly half of all offenders sent to prison are reconvicted within a year of release, creating a revolving door of crime.

...and Wiki isn't up to the task.

 

[Capster78]

I don't see that at all....I don't get what your saying.


I wasn't aware we were talking about any kind of source other than one which can be freely accessed by anyone online.

Here's an example of how to link to your source material:

Spoiler

The intentional homicide rate shows North America is lower than Eastern Europe, and also lower than the world average, and FAR lower than MANY other regions in the world: List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I already sourced it 3 times..... sorry, not going to do it again.

 

[Jerry]

I already sourced it 3 times..... sorry, not going to do it again.

You sourced Wiki 3 times. Your source is invalid because 1) anyone can write and edit a WIki article, it isn't subject to falsification; 2) the number you gave is too old to apply to the modern day; and 3) the number you gave only applied to one city, and was never meant to represent the whole nation even when it was recent information.

It's good that you're not going to source it again, that saves me from copying this very post and pasting it in response every time you did.

 

[Capster78]

You sourced Wiki 3 times. Your source is invalid because 1) anyone can write and edit a WIki article, it isn't subject to falsification; 2) the number you gave is too old to apply to the modern day; and 3) the number you gave only applied to one city, and was never meant to represent the whole nation even when it was recent information.

It's good that you're not going to source it again, that saves me from copying this very post and pasting it in response every time you did.

Let me do a little more research and I will get back with you. I did not see in any of your posts anything that disputes the information I posted.

 

[Jerry]

Let me do a little more research and I will get back with you. I did not see in any of your posts anything that disputes the information I posted.

Click the "show spoiler" button in my post #209, enjoy the video, it's only a few minutes long.

 

[Jerry]

Let me do a little more research and I will get back with you.

I'll give you a sporting chance: Did the AWB reduce crime

 

[SMTA]

I already have, as I stated before and provided a like to back it up.. 75% of all homicides by firearms are by people with criminal records against others with criminal records. Which points to gang and drug violence being the culprits. Not only does that prove that only 25% of crimes are committed outside of that, it also proves that an area that is heavily armed is not safe from others who are also armed.

Ok, so here are some numbers. In 2000 there were 12,632 homicides related to firearms. If 75% of those were between criminals that is about 9474. That leaves a mere 3,158 people who would fall into "others". I would imagine people killed in the robbery of a store and other offenses other than robbing a house is a good portion of that as well. But lets just say that 3,158 people were killed by criminals during a robbery. How many homes exist in America. Take 3,185 and divide it by that and see what kind of insignificant number you get. Wait.. I will do it for you. There are roughtly 125 million homes in the US. So that means the chance of you being killed by someone entering your house with a firearm is about 0.000025%.

While you are researching, I want to see your source data for these statements.

 

[Jerry]

While you are researching, I want to see your source data for these statements.

Funny that Capster saying it in this thread is the 5th hit on Google.

 

[Capster78]

While you are researching, I want to see your source data for these statements.

That information was based on the lowest number I could find on criminal to criminal statistics. Unfortunatly, its the only source I could find. I dont see why the three cities mentioned would be special in any regard over other cities with gun violence issues. However, it is true for at least 3 major US cities.

 

[jimson]

Give up on this guy. Just be thankful that even most anti-gunners don't seriously think we can just outlaw gun ownership.

Don't waste another minute on him.

 

[whysoserious]

In other news, the NRA suggests armed escorts for all firefighters.

When's it going to end?

 

[Capster78]

Give up on this guy. Just be thankful that even most anti-gunners don't seriously think we can just outlaw gun ownership.

Don't waste another minute on him.

Give it time, if things don't drastically improve soon, I think you will see a change in that.

 

[SMTA]

Funny that Capster saying it in this thread is the 5th hit on Google.

Bwaahaahaahaa!

Somebody is just reading headings, as opposed to FBI Uniform Crime Statistics.

Snort! Just what I thought. Disregard!

 

[Jerry]

Bwaahaahaahaa!

Somebody is just reading headings, as opposed to FBI Uniform Crime Statistics.

Snort! Just what I thought. Disregard!

We've seen people on this site make a claim, tell us to 'just Google it' when we challenge them, and Google only comes back with 1 hit: them saying it on this forum.

 

[Capster78]

Bwaahaahaahaa!

Somebody is just reading headings, as opposed to FBI Uniform Crime Statistics.

Snort! Just what I thought. Disregard!

I have looked at the uniform crime statistics and they don't break it down further than crime committed by race. Just because the information is hard to find does not mean its not true. The information I got was sourced directly from the cities effected.

 

[Jerry]

I have looked at the uniform crime statistics and they don't break it down further than crime committed by race. Just because the information is hard to find does not mean its not true. The information I got was sourced directly from the cities effected.

You are 24.91 times more likely to simply trip over something and die then to die by any-kind of unintended gunshot.

National Vital Statistics Report

• Diseases of heart....................................652,091
• Malignant neoplasms (Cancer).....................559,312
• Cerebrovascular diseases (Strokes)..............143,579
• Chronic lower respiratory diseases.............130,933
• Accidents (unintentional injuries)...................117,809
• Diabetes mellitus .....................................75,119
• Alzheimer’s disease ..................................71,599
• Influenza and pneumonia ..........................63,001
• Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephritis...43,901
• Septicemia..............................................34,136
• Intentional self-harm (suicide)......................32,637
• Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis................27,530
• Hypertension and hypertensive renal disease.24,902
• Parkinson’s disease ..................................19,544
• Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids ............16,959
• Simple Falling Down...................................19,656
• Assault (homicide) by discharge of firearms.....12,352
• Accidental discharge of Firearm.......................789
• Suicide by Discharge of Firearms..................17,002
• Accidental Drowning and Submersion............3,582
• Accidental Poisoning.................................23,618
• Motor Vehicle Accidents............................45,343
• Non-Transport Accidents...........................69,368

What kind of statistics would you like?

Convictions for Concealed Handgun License Holders: Texas 2012

Total offenses 63,679 crimes 120 by TX CHL holders 0.1884% of the total.

Or maybe:

WOULD BANNING FIREARMS REDUCE MURDER AND SUICIDE? A REVIEW OF INTERNATIONAL AND SOME DOMESTIC EVIDENCE
Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy

View attachment 67129742

Guns are just one among numerous available deadly instruments. Thus, banning guns cannot reduce the amount of suicides. Such measures only reduce the number of suicides by firearms. Suicides committed in other ways increase to make up the difference. People do not commit suicide because they have guns available. They kill themselves for reasons they deem sufficient, and in the absence of firearms they just kill themselves in some other way.

Or:
The wild-west wasn't as wild as you think:

Dispelling the myth of 'The Wild West' - Minneapolis gun rights | Examiner.com

In his book, Frontier Violence: Another Look, author W. Eugene Hollon, provides us with these astonishing facts:

• 
  [*]In Abilene, Ellsworth, Wichita, Dodge City, and Caldwell, for the years from 1870 to 1885, there were only 45 total homicides. This equates to a rate of approximately 1 murder per 100,000 residents per year.
  [*]In Abilene, supposedly one of the wildest of the cow towns, not a single person was killed in 1869 or 1870.
  

Zooming forward over a century to 2007, a quick look at Uniform Crime Report statistics shows us the following regarding the aforementioned gun control “paradise” cities of the east:

• DC – 183 Murders (31 per 100,000 residents)
• New York – 494 Murders (6 per 100,000 residents)
• Baltimore – 281 Murders (45 per 100,000 residents)
• Newark – 104 Murders (37 per 100,000 residents)

 

[Capster78]

You are 24.91 times more likely to simply trip over something and die then to die by any-kind of unintended gunshot.

good statistic!! Does that not prove how unimportant it is to own a gun for self defense?