Having been part of the system at one time, and seeing its inner workings, I have seen hundreds of repeat criminals go free, or get off very lightly, who should have been incaracerated. Honestly, the way in which career criminals get off with short sentences, probation, or acquittal over and over is truly nauseating to those of us who worked to put them away, where they would be no threat to honest citizens. I've seen it so many times it makes me sick to think about the damage these individuals cause when they are put back out in society again and again.
This is one of the reasons why I advocate some very serious changes in our CJ system. I have come to agree with Korimir, that our system needs to be changed from an orientation towards punishment, to an orientation towards reform. Most minor offenses should involve repayment of those harmed, and/or community service activity. If a person commits a serious felony, (and I mean the FIRST time they commit a serious felony!!) then they are incarcerated in a reform instititute, and they don't leave until there is solid evidence to believe they have truly changed and will go straight. If this takes 5 years, 10 years, 20 years or 40 years, they don't leave until they exhibit changed behaviors and attitudes. I'd then give them 5 years on probation, where they are monitored closely for signs of recidivism, before restoring to them their full rights and freedom.
Those who don't change never get out. I would also say that certain crimes still carry mandatory life-without-parole, and that the death sentence remains suitable for certain heinous crimes. No more of this smack-on-the-wrist for first-time burglars and carjackers.
This is a subject about which I am passionate, because people I care about have suffered at the hands of repeat offenders.
The devil, of course, is in the details.
I think that the FIRST time anyone commits armed robbery, burglary of a private home, carjacking (taking a car while someone is in it), attempted murder or voluntary manslaughter without mitigating circumstances, attempted rape or sexual battery, assault with a deadly weapon with no mitigating circumstances, or indeed any form of violence performed with the intent of material gain, should be placed in a reform institute under an indefinite sentence: prove yourself reformed or you never get out.
Many lesser crimes might result in <1 year in a reform institute, and/or public service, and repayment of the injured parties for damages.
While incarcerated, the convicts should perform useful work. Their privileges will be based on their productivity and the quality and quantity of their work.
They don't get out until a panel of experts is convinced that they are truly reformed and will go straight. Even then, they spend 5 years on parole and are monitored for behaviors indicating recidivism. Parole can be revoked easily for anything worse than a traffic ticket. At the end of parole, if they're still a model citizen, they get their full rights and freedom restored.
As to the details of exactly how you go about reforming criminals, and making sure they are really reformed, I admit that my knowlege of that field is too limited to make specific recommendations. I would have to defer to those who are expert in those fields. I'd be intrested in other posters' thoughts.
Some crimes, IMO, should remain either life-without-parole, or in some cases capital punishment. 1st Degree murder without mitigating circumstances; sexual molestation of a child under 13; forcible rape of anyone, in most cases; murder or manslaughter occurring in the course of a robbery or burglary or other crime-of-gain; possibly some others.
Furthermore, if you are ever incarcerated in a reform institute; are judged reformed and allowed out on parole, and/or complete parole... and EVER commit a second serious felony for which the sentence could be "indefinite", then that's either life-without-parole or the death penalty. Three strikes is too many, your second serious felony should certainly be your last.
Now, along with this I support full legalization of marijuana, including the production/supply chain; decriminalization of use and simple possession of all other drugs; along with a nationwide standard on the right to self-defense and to carry weapons in all non-secure places, including castle law and no duty to retreat (see Florida's laws on this, for the most part).
This is part of an overall package to reduce crime, especially repeat-offender crime.
1. Quit filling up prisons and jails with petty criminals and drug users.
2. Stop letting people who commit serious felonies off with a wrist-slap; put them away the FIRST time.
3. Give those who will reform a second chance; do NOT let anyone out who does not exhibit strong evidence of reformation.
4. Monitor parole-ees better than is currently done, and put them back in the instant they break any condition of their parole.
5. Restore full rights to those who are reformed and who have completed their parole acceptibly. If they're "Safe" to be out among the citizenry, then they should be "safe" to have all their rights restored. If they can't be trusted with full rights, they should not be out at all.
6. Make it easier for all US citizens to protect themselves and their families. Some states practically make this impossible.
Thoughts?
Reading your overall post, Draco comes to mind. ;-)
I think focusing on punishment rather than rehabilitation is the reason our justice system draws so much criticism. Until we as a society are willing to devote enough resources to actually reforming/rehabilitating offenders, we'll continue banging our heads against a stone wall 'til the cows come home.
There's not one animal in the world that can be successfully 'trained' (read 'reformed' here) using punishment. There are sociopaths and psychopaths among us who will never be able to be productive members of society. We need to be willing to incarcerate those people for the rest of their lives, if necessary, to protect the rest of us.
But the vast majority of offenders are NOT sociopathic or psychopathic. They would benefit from solid efforts to rehabilitate them and reintegrate them back into society...where they'd stand every chance of staying productive members of society.
Prisons are horrible places where inmates are coerced, bullied, raped, beaten, and otherwise "ruined" by a prison population allowed to run wild. Our society doesn't do enough to ensure that the prisons we send offenders to are safe places. We just don't give a damn.
Then, after they've served their time, even if they do have the best intentions of, "Hell!!! I'm NEVER goin' back to THAT place," they're sent right back to where they came from, can't find jobs, and are branded with a scarlet letter for the rest of their lives. WTF?
Many states have a three-strikes law. I think your suggestions are Draconian. No offense.
i read a couple of u paragraphs then u lost me, AM sure some of your ideas r good, but not reasonable, burglary is mainly a crime that supports a habit not all the time but most...u can not throw away the key, many people live in society and do the same as people incarcerated just never been caught ,many of those people are our country leaders and in the cj system themselves yet we would look up to theses people, don't kid yourself everyone has done something criminal and got away some get caught and we want to hammer them...
I do agree certain crime deserve severe punishment and generally they get what they deserve.. we need to spend more money on getting to the root of crime that just clogs the prisons and cost too much of our money ..we can start in the schools with education,,, proper parenting and role modeling,,,policing is horrible anymore, there is no public relations it seems police are looking for anything to put a man in jail these days...simple infractions such as a traffic ticket not paid could land u in jail where one day costs more than the ticket not to mention the police time to book u and put u in jail,,,doesnt make sense... we all need to think more clearly at what we are doing to make a more logical system to educate,incarcerate and judicate responcible. our system plays a role in this at every stage of our lifes...
Now, up to this point, you seem to agree with me. [Re Maggie's post on 3 strikes] Could you elaborate on that?
some schmuck who robs a Lil-Cricket at gunpoint, and incarcerating him in a reform institute until he exhibits changed behaviors and attitudes that convince a panel of experts that he is "reformed" (trained if you wish) and safe to be part of society again.... how is that draconian?
Why would we take someone who has exhibited such scant regard for the lives of his fellow citizens, and let him back out after a specific period of time even if there is no evidence that he has "reformed"? That is why I say let the sentence for serious felonies be "indefinite".... he can get out when he shows evidence that he's SAFE to be out. When he committed armed robbery or burglary he exhibited that he was a deadly danger to society.... he needs to earn and PROVE that he has a place in society before he is allowed to run free again.
Oh, I like the three strikes guidelines, though less than 30 states have them....and, of course, they're all different.
What I don't like about your suggestions is this: ".....until he exhibits changed behaviors and atitudes that convince a panel of experts...." Who are these experts? How do they make these subjective decisions? Based on good behavior? We already do that. Based on parole hearings? "Tell 'em what they want to hear...." Sentencing guidelines need to be in place or we'll be warehousing people at the whims of bureaucratic idiots.
Actually, we don't let them out after a specifi period of time....most offenders don't serve their whole sentences. They are released early at the discretion of the parole board. How's that workin' out for ya'? Know what I mean? They're making value judgements already. And, as you point out, those value judgements suck. That's why I think we need to focus on rehabilitation.
Sorry about structure of my writing ,I am just a heating and cooling contractor, doing what I can....
I agree with you dont get me wrong I live in a town next to Camden N.J. a terrible crime ridden environment for anyone..like I said I agree with you, but I have seen first hand that a person can change and of course some cant the ones that cant are a different breed and ultimatley get what they deserve.
I just believe getting to the root of a mans situation can reveal what he thinks and why..
As for a burglary you are right it is a terrifying matter for anyone. the burglary I am refering to is not what i had in mind. burglary is entering someones property without permission. what you do in that property is what brings on the other charges ( theft, assault , etc.)
If a man enters you vehicle for a stereo to support a drug habit...doesnt deserve to be thrown away.. he does deserve to be incarcerated with some sort of treatment (mandatory) to ultimatly resolve the situation. If that man chooses to not participate or continue his ways then he will get what he deserves..
All I am saying is education is paramount, clogging jails with minor offences and the resources we spend to do it dont make sense..its time to change some things we do in the ststem to help all parties involved not just the angry citizen (rightfully so) some of these criminals are our children who we know as parents are suffering from other forms of social problems that led to thier behavior (ADDICTION, MOLESTATION, etc.)
I dont condone any of this behavior, but willing to divert much needed resourses in a different way..
again sorry about writing skills
Having been part of the system at one time, and seeing its inner workings, I have seen hundreds of repeat criminals go free, or get off very lightly, who should have been incaracerated. Honestly, the way in which career criminals get off with short sentences, probation, or acquittal over and over is truly nauseating to those of us who worked to put them away, where they would be no threat to honest citizens. I've seen it so many times it makes me sick to think about the damage these individuals cause when they are put back out in society again and again.
This is one of the reasons why I advocate some very serious changes in our CJ system. I have come to agree with Korimir, that our system needs to be changed from an orientation towards punishment, to an orientation towards reform. Most minor offenses should involve repayment of those harmed, and/or community service activity. If a person commits a serious felony, (and I mean the FIRST time they commit a serious felony!!) then they are incarcerated in a reform instititute, and they don't leave until there is solid evidence to believe they have truly changed and will go straight. If this takes 5 years, 10 years, 20 years or 40 years, they don't leave until they exhibit changed behaviors and attitudes. I'd then give them 5 years on probation, where they are monitored closely for signs of recidivism, before restoring to them their full rights and freedom.
Those who don't change never get out. I would also say that certain crimes still carry mandatory life-without-parole, and that the death sentence remains suitable for certain heinous crimes. No more of this smack-on-the-wrist for first-time burglars and carjackers.
This is a subject about which I am passionate, because people I care about have suffered at the hands of repeat offenders.
The devil, of course, is in the details.
I think that the FIRST time anyone commits armed robbery, burglary of a private home, carjacking (taking a car while someone is in it), attempted murder or voluntary manslaughter without mitigating circumstances, attempted rape or sexual battery, assault with a deadly weapon with no mitigating circumstances, or indeed any form of violence performed with the intent of material gain, should be placed in a reform institute under an indefinite sentence: prove yourself reformed or you never get out.
Many lesser crimes might result in <1 year in a reform institute, and/or public service, and repayment of the injured parties for damages.
While incarcerated, the convicts should perform useful work. Their privileges will be based on their productivity and the quality and quantity of their work.
They don't get out until a panel of experts is convinced that they are truly reformed and will go straight. Even then, they spend 5 years on parole and are monitored for behaviors indicating recidivism. Parole can be revoked easily for anything worse than a traffic ticket. At the end of parole, if they're still a model citizen, they get their full rights and freedom restored.
As to the details of exactly how you go about reforming criminals, and making sure they are really reformed, I admit that my knowlege of that field is too limited to make specific recommendations. I would have to defer to those who are expert in those fields. I'd be intrested in other posters' thoughts.
Some crimes, IMO, should remain either life-without-parole, or in some cases capital punishment. 1st Degree murder without mitigating circumstances; sexual molestation of a child under 13; forcible rape of anyone, in most cases; murder or manslaughter occurring in the course of a robbery or burglary or other crime-of-gain; possibly some others.
Furthermore, if you are ever incarcerated in a reform institute; are judged reformed and allowed out on parole, and/or complete parole... and EVER commit a second serious felony for which the sentence could be "indefinite", then that's either life-without-parole or the death penalty. Three strikes is too many, your second serious felony should certainly be your last.
Now, along with this I support full legalization of marijuana, including the production/supply chain; decriminalization of use and simple possession of all other drugs; along with a nationwide standard on the right to self-defense and to carry weapons in all non-secure places, including castle law and no duty to retreat (see Florida's laws on this, for the most part).
This is part of an overall package to reduce crime, especially repeat-offender crime.
1. Quit filling up prisons and jails with petty criminals and drug users.
2. Stop letting people who commit serious felonies off with a wrist-slap; put them away the FIRST time.
3. Give those who will reform a second chance; do NOT let anyone out who does not exhibit strong evidence of reformation.
4. Monitor parole-ees better than is currently done, and put them back in the instant they break any condition of their parole.
5. Restore full rights to those who are reformed and who have completed their parole acceptibly. If they're "Safe" to be out among the citizenry, then they should be "safe" to have all their rights restored. If they can't be trusted with full rights, they should not be out at all.
6. Make it easier for all US citizens to protect themselves and their families. Some states practically make this impossible.
Thoughts?
Things don't exist in a vacuum. While I propose a reform to the criminal justice system, it's important to understand why criminals are criminals in the first place. I think that there are a few major factors regarding as to why people commit crimes.
1) Economic reasons
Crimes pay well. For many people, they do crimes because it's the only way they can make a living. A drug dealer doesn't need a college degree to sit on a street corner and hand out plastic baggies while pocketing cash. Any woman (or even man) can put an ad out selling sexual services without being required to have any sort of education.
Basically, there are a lot of criminals who aren't criminals because they want to do crimes but rather they are criminals because their source of revenue to pay their bills have been criminalized.
But ex-convicts, especially felons, have a lot of **** going against them with regards to the job market. There are many major franchise corporations who won't accept ex-felons for even minimum wage positions. Also, landlords have full rights to not allow ex-felons to rent their property purely on the basis of them being an ex-felon.
So because of this criminals are caught in a cycle of crime not because they enjoy crime but because it is the only way they can perform a good or service in which they can get paid.
So what kind of reform to the rights of ex-convicts would you provide to give criminals the economic ability to not do crimes?
2) Educational reasons
There are studies that show that there is a high correlation between the educational level of people and the crimes they commit. Basically, there are a lot of people who aren't educated enough to know why some acts are crimes in the first place. Many criminals either don't have the intelligence or don't have the education to understand why a crime is harmful to society.
What I mean by this is that the declaration of an act to be unlawful is quite simple, but the understanding of all the reasons why such an act is unlawful can be complex, and so should be explained to people.
But we don't. Schools don't explain the reasons why assault and battery is bad, or how prostitution exploits people economically. So while a person who goes visits a prostitute is only thinking he's paying someone to give him sexual services, he may never make the leap of that to international kidnapping rings who capture teenage tourist girls to use them as sex slaves.
So what kind of reform to the educational system will you do to ensure that the citizenry is educated enough and informed enough on all crimes that will be less likely to commit them?
%5
There's a problem with the economic theory of criminal activity. Actually lots of problems. While it is certain that many criminals come from a disadvantaged background, there are children of wealth and privilege who commit crimes as well. It isn't exclusively about economics.
Secondly, a large proportion of career criminals make part of their living off of government programs. Many of them are engaged in welfare fraud, or disability fraud, or have a spouse who is on welfare, disability, food stamps, etc. I have personally known many criminals whose basic needs are taken care of by the government... yet they continue to steal, rob, con, deal, and so forth. They don't HAVE to steal, in many cases. Most of the time, they aren't going to starve or be homeless if they don't steal, because they're already gaming the system for every dollar they can get out of it. They steal for the "extras": drugs, cable, fancy cellphones, bad-ass ride.... and because they have a mentality that the world owes them, not just a living, but a rich living. Many of them hurt people for similar reasons: they think the world has hurt them, so they strike out at anyone who they dislike.
There is a whole mentality involved that goes well beyond mere economics or education.
I don't entirely disagree. Many criminals I've known were not very intelligent, and/or not very educated.
They have "civics" courses in school that are supposed to teach children about the social contract and why it is bad to break it. However, when you compare the amount of influence school has over a child's attitudes and mindset, compared to their peer-group, their family, the music they listen to, the games they play, and the movies and TV they watch, it is no wonder that the school's current efforts to infuse them with a sense of civic duty is lacking.
How to fix that lack is beyond me. I am quite sure throwing money at the problem will not suffice. I don't think a one-hour a day class on civic virtue is ever going to be able to overcome 16 hours a day of "F--- the police/screw the b----ches" rap music, peers that are anti-authority and anti-business and anti-everything, and especially if the family views law/authority/society/conventional success negatively.
It's like trying to fight a housefire with a garden hose.
As for job training or other forms of education to give them a better chance at success... those are already available for most people who really want it. There are student loans, the Pell Grant, minority college funds, and various gov't programs for job training. The problem with many criminal types is they come from a subculture that disdains education, sneers at conventional success, and glorifies criminality. I don't know how you overcome that with education, unless you actually remove the child from the environment and put him in an environment where the influences on him will be all positive, like some kind of youth camp. This would be leaving the realm of a democratic republic and entering the realm of totalitarianism, though, if done as a general thing.
As a society, we should do what we can to salvage those who are salvagable, of course. We have to bear in mind the hard reality that we're in a economic slump and our budget is 1/3rd debt, and realize that there is only so much we can afford in terms of social programs and education.... and realize that we're already spending at least 30% more than we can afford.
The "War on poverty" was declared 60 or 70 years ago, IIRC.... yet about the same percentages are still judged to be IN poverty. We spend vast sums on education, but many studies are showing that the money you spend on education rapidly reaches a point of diminishing returns.
I don't claim to have all the answers, but I do think that "addressing the root causes of crime" has its limits. The single most important root cause of crime is simple human nature, and changing that would be quite a trick.
Dammit, it cut off part of my post...
I also listed 2 other reasons.
The third was age. Basically, I pointed out that just like we have those who are unintelligent and uneducated, we also have those who are unexperienced. So a 13-year-old should be judged differently from a 25-year-old who should be judged differently from a 44-year-old who should be judged differently from an 88-year-old. I wanted to know your thoughts on that.
The fourth was issues regard mental illness. I pointed out that while many poor are mentally ill, it's actually the inverse - many mentally ill are poor. This is because peoples' mental illnesses cause them to have abnormal social behavior, which they can't help. And our nation doesn't have a strong national mental health system to deal with them. So it's only natural that peoples' untreated mental illnesses will cause them to get involved with the court system at some point, and the prison system isn't designed for the mentally ill. I was wondering what kind of reform for them you'd do.
All the job training and education in the world won't help them if people won't hire them because they're felons.
I don't know if you addressed pedophiles. I really don't know what to do about them because they can't be rehabilitated. I guess I'd like them locked up for life at any cost.
I don't know if you addressed pedophiles. I really don't know what to do about them because they can't be rehabilitated. I guess I'd like them locked up for life at any cost.
Having been part of the system at one time, and seeing its inner workings, I have seen hundreds of repeat criminals go free, or get off very lightly, who should have been incaracerated. Honestly, the way in which career criminals get off with short sentences, probation, or acquittal over and over is truly nauseating to those of us who worked to put them away, where they would be no threat to honest citizens. I've seen it so many times it makes me sick to think about the damage these individuals cause when they are put back out in society again and again.
This is one of the reasons why I advocate some very serious changes in our CJ system. I have come to agree with Korimir, that our system needs to be changed from an orientation towards punishment, to an orientation towards reform.
If a child's room has a tv, toys, computer, phone and many other things, would it make sense to send that child to his room as a punishment in the even that child does something wrong? I think most people would laugh their ass off on the idea of a child being sent to their room as a form of punishment when that child has a computer,video games, tv, phone and other luxuries. Yet somehow many of the inmates have many of the same luxuries they did outside of prison and the worst thing to fear about prison is getting stabbed and or butt rapped and act as though this is some sort of punishment. We should first make the punishment a actual punishment before trying to throw away one of the main reasons to send someone to prison..
I felt that way for a long time too, James. It is still my emotional reaction to criminals. And I'm not talking about coddling them and giving them everything for nothing. As I said in one post, privileges would be tied to work productivity and lack of disciplinary problems.
Reform-orientation doesn't mean they have it easy. It means that if they EVER EVER want to get out of prison, they're going to have to work their butt off; come to grips with their inner demons and wrestle their bad attitudes and behaviors into submission with the help of staff; CHANGE their ways and DEMONSTRATE those changes under rigorous standards and conditions. It ain't gonna be no picnic, and those who won't make an effort and won't work hard and behave themselves can sit in a bare cell for the rest of their life if that's what they choose to do.
The point is twofold:
1. No more letting out unreformed criminals, like we do today after a set number of years.
2. Those who DO get out have learened a viable job skill, learned how to work and behave, and demonstrated real reform before they get out... then once out they have to be a model citizen for five years more before they are really free.... and if they ever offend again they're done, they get life.
If we're going to go with punishment-as-deterrent for our whole purpose, then we'd need to bring back the whipping post, branding, and hand-chopping,because prison as a deterrent apparently isn't working very well at all. At least not the way we do it today...
Prison should should be about reform but the punishment aspect should be the primary reason for sending someone to prison. Because not focusing on the punishment reason for sending to prison it is how inmates have tv, libraries, weight rooms, air conditioning, prison sex, video games in some states, tax payer funded hormone pills so inmates can look like ugly women, cigarettes, magazines, free education and many other luxuries they would have on the outside of prison.
I remember a year or two ago I asked the poll question "Should criminals be released(no prison)if rehabilitation came in the form of a pill?" and I was surprised by how many people voted that they should be released immediately after taking the pill. Does that many people really have no regard for the victims what so ever?
And that would have to do with the fact inmates practically have the same luxuries they did on the outside. Which is why I asked the question would you a send a child to his room as punishment if he has a tv, video games, computer and other stuff in his room. How would it be a punishment sending a child to his room if he has all those things in his room that he does outside his room? Prison today is no different, about the only thing a inmate can not get in prison that he can on the outside is a gun,
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