Mail-in Voting IS Problematic

[Captain Adverse]

We keep hearing claims that mail-in voting for the next election is the best method of dealing with both Covid-19 concerns, and to get out the popular vote.

Yet Mail-in voting IS subject to all sorts of fraud and error despite nay-sayer's claiming otherwise.

Here is an article on the subject from the New York Times back in 2012:

Error and Fraud at Issue as Absentee Voting Rises. By Adam Liptak Oct. 6, 2012. [V]otes cast by mail are less likely to be counted, and more likely to be compromised and more likely to be contested than those cast in a voting booth, statistics show. Election officials reject almost 2 percent of ballots cast by mail, double the rate for in-person voting.

As More Vote by Mail, Faulty Ballots Could Impact Elections - The New York Times

and commentary from RealClear Politics this past June...

New Jersey’s All-Mail Vote Debacle is a Warning for November. Commentary by Jason Snead 06/23/20.

Even as New Jersey voters look to the general election, many are still coping with the aftermath of the state’s first all-mail vote. Paterson, the Garden State’s third-largest city, is mired in a burgeoning election scandal. One in five ballots have been rejected…Undeliverable ballots piled in trash cans and apartment lobbies, roughly 800 ballots were found bundled together – 400 stuffed into one mailbox, and 360 more were fund in another in a completely different town. The evidence of illegal vote harvesting led officials to reject them all…

Another 1214 votes were disqualified because voters’ signatures did not match official records, and 1000 more because the “bearer” – the person who collected and delivered the vote – didn’t properly report doing so. Voters reported never receiving ballots even though they were listed as having voted – in other words, someone else purportedly cast their vote.

Ultimately, nearly 20% of ballots cast on May 12 were invalidated.

New Jersey's All-Mail Vote Debacle Is a Warning for November | RealClearPolitics

Now the counterarguments are all about how States like Colorado have been using mail-in voting "successfully."

Yet according to the Washington Post:

Here's the Problem With Mail-in ballots. They might not be counted...(May 21, 2020). In the 2016 election 0.81% of Colorado's mail ballots were rejected, in Oregon 0.86%, and in Washington 0.90%...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...th-mail-in-ballots-they-might-not-be-counted/

and NPR:

Signed, Sealed, Undelivered: Thousands Of Mail-In Ballots Rejected For Tardiness (July 13, 2020). Hundreds of thousands of ballots go uncounted each year because people make mistakes, such as forgetting to sign the form or sending it in too late. While the numbers are relatively small — around 1% in most states — they could prove crucial in a close election, especially one in which many more voters are expected to cast absentee and mail-in ballots to avoid going to the polls during a pandemic.

Thousands Of Mail-Voting Ballots Rejected For Arriving Late : NPR

I stand by my position it is better to vote in-person unless unable to do so. Unless and until problems with mail-in balloting can be alleviated.

 

[bongsaway]

It's only problematic for the R's.

 

[watsup]

We keep hearing claims that mail-in voting for the next election is the best method of dealing with both Covid-19 concerns, and to get out the popular vote.

Yet Mail-in voting IS subject to all sorts of fraud and error despite nay-sayer's claiming otherwise.

Here is an article on the subject from the New York Times back in 2012:



As More Vote by Mail, Faulty Ballots Could Impact Elections - The New York Times

and commentary from RealClear Politics this past June...

New Jersey's All-Mail Vote Debacle Is a Warning for November | RealClearPolitics

Now the counterarguments are all about how States like Colorado have been using mail-in voting "successfully."

Yet according to the Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...th-mail-in-ballots-they-might-not-be-counted/

and NPR:

Thousands Of Mail-Voting Ballots Rejected For Arriving Late : NPR

I stand by my position it is better to vote in-person unless unable to do so. Unless and until problems with mail-in balloting can be alleviated.

Yes, there can be problems with mail-in voting, but that doesn’t mean we throw out the baby with the bath water. All states should be working hard to make it a reality during this COVID pandemic. There are also huge problems with voting in person: Long lines, not enough polling places, lack of poll workers because they don’t want to be out among the public. In the case of COVID, mail-in voting solves those problems and is vitally needed at this point.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Yes, there can be problems with mail-in voting, but that doesn’t mean we throw out the baby with the bath water. All states should be working hard to make it a reality during this COVID pandemic. There are also huge problems with voting in person: Long lines, not enough polling places, lack of poll workers because they don’t want to be out among the public. In the case of COVID, mail-in voting solves those problems and is vitally needed at this point.

Really?

Back in 2016 Clinton's popular vote lead was about 2% of the total votes cast.

We see that with mail-in voting anywhere from 1 - 2% of mail-in votes are rejected just because they are not filled out properly.

That can have a major impact on who wins the national election.

That's not even counting all those other reasons for the mail-in vote not being counted.

 

[Ikari]

We keep hearing claims that mail-in voting for the next election is the best method of dealing with both Covid-19 concerns, and to get out the popular vote.

Yet Mail-in voting IS subject to all sorts of fraud and error despite nay-sayer's claiming otherwise.

Here is an article on the subject from the New York Times back in 2012:



As More Vote by Mail, Faulty Ballots Could Impact Elections - The New York Times

and commentary from RealClear Politics this past June...

New Jersey's All-Mail Vote Debacle Is a Warning for November | RealClearPolitics

Now the counterarguments are all about how States like Colorado have been using mail-in voting "successfully."

Yet according to the Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...th-mail-in-ballots-they-might-not-be-counted/

and NPR:

Thousands Of Mail-Voting Ballots Rejected For Arriving Late : NPR

I stand by my position it is better to vote in-person unless unable to do so. Unless and until problems with mail-in balloting can be alleviated.

It's not problematic in Colorado.

lol

 

[Irredentist]

Really?

Back in 2016 Clinton's popular vote lead was about 2% of the total votes cast.

We see that with mail-in voting anywhere from 1 - 2% of mail-in votes are rejected just because they are not filled out properly.

That can have a major impact on who wins the national election.

That's not even counting all those other reasons for the mail-in vote not being counted.

The correct approach is to mix the two methods. We don't want everyone coming in to crowd the polling stations. But we also don't want everyone mailing in their ballots and overwhelming a system that isn't ready to handle that kind of volume.

Instead, some people should vote in person, and some people should vote by mail.

 

[Captain Adverse]

It's only problematic for the R's.

Really? Is it your argument that Republicans are more dedicated, and so more willing to actually going out and voting?

That Democrats are just too lazy? :unsure13:

You might want to think a bit before you post. :coffeepap:

 

[Captain Adverse]

It's not problematic in Colorado.

lol

Says the person who clearly ignored the info about Colorado's mail-in ballot rejections. :coffeepap:

 

[Ikari]

Really?

Back in 2016 Clinton's popular vote lead was about 2% of the total votes cast.

We see that with mail-in voting anywhere from 1 - 2% of mail-in votes are rejected just because they are not filled out properly.

That can have a major impact on who wins the national election.

That's not even counting all those other reasons for the mail-in vote not being counted.

And in Bush/Gore we found out that Florida has no idea how make ballots and vote. Those weren't even mail-in ballots. In-person ballots can also be filled out improperly and invalidated.

So?

I think that there are many who are scared of Mail-In systems because it encourages more highly voter participation. But some States have been running this for some time and running it well.

 

[Michael Cole]

Really?

Back in 2016 Clinton's popular vote lead was about 2% of the total votes cast.

We see that with mail-in voting anywhere from 1 - 2% of mail-in votes are rejected just because they are not filled out properly.

That can have a major impact on who wins the national election.

That's not even counting all those other reasons for the mail-in vote not being counted.

I was waiting for this. Typical and transparent.

Nowhere have you shown that these rejected ballots have anything to do with party. The logical conclusion is that those ballots which were rejected are in proportion to those counted. Anything else would involve a huge conspiracy which is so far from reality, my imagination rejects it out of hand.

 

[Ikari]

Says the person who clearly ignored the info about Colorado's mail-in ballot rejections. :coffeepap:

What, that less than a percent of them were rejected?

lol

OK. We also saw voter participation rise from 71% in 2012 to 74.5% in 2016. So less than a percentage of votes were rejected and we gained 3.5% more votes. Seems like it was a win.

 

[Captain Adverse]

And in Bush/Gore we found out that Florida has no idea how make ballots and vote. Those weren't even mail-in ballots. In-person ballots can also be filled out improperly and invalidated.

So?

I think that there are many who are scared of Mail-In systems because it encourages more highly voter participation. But some States have been running this for some time and running it well.

Hey, I am with you on the Bush-Gore thing, as I VOTED for Al Gore.

I find it VERY problematic that the same County that suddenly found all those "missing ballots" in 2000, also found "missing ballots" 2016 (or was it 2018?).

Same Democrat elections supervisor in both cases, if I recall correctly.

 

[mike2810]

I have voted by mail for years. In AZ I can check via the web when the ballot is received and when it is scanned/recorded. If the US wants to go to only in person voting then voting procedures need to change. Make a voting month to lessen the crowds waiting in line.

"Over the past 20 years, they write, more than 250 million ballots have been cast by mail nationwide, while there have been just 143 criminal convictions for election fraud related to mail ballots. That averages out to about one case per state every six or seven years, or a fraud rate of 0.00006%.
Vote By Mail: Ballot Fraud Risk, State Laws And Trump's Claims : NPR

"Mail balloting is not a newfangled idea; it was already deeply embedded in the American electoral system before the coronavirus hit. In the last two federal elections, roughly one out of every four Americans cast a mail ballot. In five states — Colorado, Hawaii, Oregon, Utah, and Washington — mail balloting has been the primary method of voting. In 28 additional states, all voters have had the right to vote by mail ballot if they choose, without having to provide any reason or excuse. Over time, a growing number of voters have chosen that option. Since 2000 more than 250 million votes have been cast via mailed-out ballots, in all 50 states, according to the Vote at Home Institute. In 2018, more than 31 million Americans cast their ballots by mail, about 25.8 percent of election participants.
The False Narrative of Vote-by-Mail Fraud | Brennan Center for Justice

 

[Michael Cole]

Hey, I am with you on the Bush-Gore thing, as I VOTED for Al Gore.

I find it VERY problematic that the same County that suddenly found all those "missing ballots" in 2000, also found "missing ballots" 2016 (or was it 2018?).

Same Democrat elections supervisor in both cases, if I recall correctly.

No system is, has been, or can ever be perfect. There will always be rejected ballots.

If the objective is to increase participation, then you'd have to show the amount of rejected mail-in ballots exceeds the increased participation by using the system. In a year with a raging pandemic, I don't think a 1% rejection rate warrants concern.

 

[Ikari]

Hey, I am with you on the Bush-Gore thing, as I VOTED for Al Gore.

I find it VERY problematic that the same County that suddenly found all those "missing ballots" in 2000, also found "missing ballots" 2016 (or was it 2018?).

Same Democrat elections supervisor in both cases, if I recall correctly.

Recounts will never find fewer votes. So no matter what, in-person or mail-in, there's some probability of a vote being rejected or invalidated for some reason. None of us are in the room when they count votes. And if they have to recount, they'll find more. Which means that those votes were, for one reason or another, not being counted in the first place.

So mail-in and in-person will suffer the same consequences. However, mail-in systems do work and work well, as Colorado has shown. Less than a percent of votes rejected, well within margin's of error.

 

[Michael Cole]

What, that less than a percent of them were rejected?

lol

OK. We also saw voter participation rise from 71% in 2012 to 74.5% in 2016. So less than a percentage of votes were rejected and we gained 3.5% more votes. Seems like it was a win.

^^^ exactly (4.9% more votes. :mrgreen

 

[tres borrachos]

Thanks for the reminder. I won't vote by mail. I'll vote in person. I want to make sure my votes for the Democrats on my ballot are all counted so I can see Trump leave and take the Republicans with him.

 

[less right]

Trump's unfounded and misinformed opinion about mail in balloting has flowed downhill to be regurgitated by the uneducated he loves so much.

 

[Razoo]

I have voted by mail for years. In AZ I can check via the web when the ballot is received and when it is scanned/recorded. If the US wants to go to only in person voting then voting procedures need to change. Make a voting month to lessen the crowds waiting in line.

"Over the past 20 years, they write, more than 250 million ballots have been cast by mail nationwide, while there have been just 143 criminal convictions for election fraud related to mail ballots. That averages out to about one case per state every six or seven years, or a fraud rate of 0.00006%.
Vote By Mail: Ballot Fraud Risk, State Laws And Trump's Claims : NPR

"Mail balloting is not a newfangled idea; it was already deeply embedded in the American electoral system before the coronavirus hit. In the last two federal elections, roughly one out of every four Americans cast a mail ballot. In five states — Colorado, Hawaii, Oregon, Utah, and Washington — mail balloting has been the primary method of voting. In 28 additional states, all voters have had the right to vote by mail ballot if they choose, without having to provide any reason or excuse. Over time, a growing number of voters have chosen that option. Since 2000 more than 250 million votes have been cast via mailed-out ballots, in all 50 states, according to the Vote at Home Institute. In 2018, more than 31 million Americans cast their ballots by mail, about 25.8 percent of election participants.
The False Narrative of Vote-by-Mail Fraud | Brennan Center for Justice

The United States of ALEC: Bill Moyers on the Secretive Corporate-Legislative Body Writing Our Laws | Democracy Now!

 

[Torus34]

Any voting system is problematic in one way or another. A scenario can be sketched out, though the probability of occurrence may be very, very small.

Curiously, my impression, and I haven't done thorough research on this, is that the actual documented instances in which a significant number of votes were involved were perpetrated by party operatives rather than single individuals attempting to 'vote early and often.'

It's also my impression that party gerrymandering of congressional voting districts has a far greater effect on election outcomes than illegal votes by citizens.

I am, of course, always willing to consider hard factual data to the contrary.

 

[Cardinal]

We keep hearing claims that mail-in voting for the next election is the best method of dealing with both Covid-19 concerns, and to get out the popular vote.

Yet Mail-in voting IS subject to all sorts of fraud and error despite nay-sayer's claiming otherwise.

Here is an article on the subject from the New York Times back in 2012:



As More Vote by Mail, Faulty Ballots Could Impact Elections - The New York Times

and commentary from RealClear Politics this past June...

New Jersey's All-Mail Vote Debacle Is a Warning for November | RealClearPolitics

Now the counterarguments are all about how States like Colorado have been using mail-in voting "successfully."

Yet according to the Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...th-mail-in-ballots-they-might-not-be-counted/

and NPR:

Thousands Of Mail-Voting Ballots Rejected For Arriving Late : NPR

I stand by my position it is better to vote in-person unless unable to do so. Unless and until problems with mail-in balloting can be alleviated.

If all Republicans agree not to do mail-in voting then I’ll consider their position seriously.

 

[Sandy Shanks]

We keep hearing claims that mail-in voting for the next election is the best method of dealing with both Covid-19 concerns, and to get out the popular vote.

Yet Mail-in voting IS subject to all sorts of fraud and error despite nay-sayer's claiming otherwise.

Here is an article on the subject from the New York Times back in 2012:



As More Vote by Mail, Faulty Ballots Could Impact Elections - The New York Times

and commentary from RealClear Politics this past June...

New Jersey's All-Mail Vote Debacle Is a Warning for November | RealClearPolitics

Now the counterarguments are all about how States like Colorado have been using mail-in voting "successfully."

Yet according to the Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...th-mail-in-ballots-they-might-not-be-counted/

and NPR:

Thousands Of Mail-Voting Ballots Rejected For Arriving Late : NPR

I stand by my position it is better to vote in-person unless unable to do so. Unless and until problems with mail-in balloting can be alleviated.

Trump proved voter fraud is not a problem.

PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — The now-disbanded voting integrity commission launched by the Trump administration uncovered no evidence to support claims of widespread voter fraud, according to an analysis of administration documents released Friday.

Report: Trump commission did not find widespread voter fraud

 

[Irwin Corey]

Really?

Back in 2016 Clinton's popular vote lead was about 2% of the total votes cast.

We see that with mail-in voting anywhere from 1 - 2% of mail-in votes are rejected just because they are not filled out properly.

That can have a major impact on who wins the national election.

That's not even counting all those other reasons for the mail-in vote not being counted.

I guess you're assuming ALL in person ballots are counted, which couldn't be further from the truth. It was problematic "in person" votes that swung the election to George Jr. In fact 1 to 2% of rejected votes is normal whether the vote is in person or by mail.

"Acceptable" number/proportion of invalid votes? —

(it was very hard to find anything on "in person" ballots because everyone is so hung up on "mail-in" but I think that article is a fair assessment.)

I guess if you want to prove a point looking at the WHOLE picture isn't in your best interest.

 

[Michael Cole]

Trump's unfounded and misinformed opinion about mail in balloting has flowed downhill to be regurgitated by the uneducated he loves so much.

You would think after going hitless for four years, they'd try a different sport.

This is why it's better to have a POTUS that's smarter than you.

 

[bongsaway]

Really? Is it your argument that Republicans are more dedicated, and so more willing to actually going out and voting?

That Democrats are just too lazy? :unsure13:

You might want to think a bit before you post. :coffeepap:

I so enjoy the creative stories telling me what I didn't say. Keep up the good work.