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Macron, Putin agree to work for Ukraine ceasefire:

mrjurrs said:
Saw a piece this morning where Ukrainians in the east believe the war has already started.:(
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That has been going on for eight years. It’s escalating now.’

Russian troops, and Russians disguised as “separatists” are forcing people out of their homes in a propoganda show of evacuation.

Russians propoganda is full of imaginary genocide in Dombass.

This is the same play that Hitler ran against the Czechs and the British and the French in 1938,
 
Well that didn't last long...
 
RedFishBlueFish said:
Although Ukraine has clearly expressed interest in NATO, it is far from clear, and seems unlikely, that all NATO countries would agree to let Ukraine in at this point. The Big Enchilada is mostly Putin propaganda.
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well then...
why not just SAY IT - give Putin what he wants ( not NATO rollbacks - but no Uk membership either)
and extract a concession back from him?
 
mrjurrs said:
Saw a piece this morning where Ukrainians in the east believe the war has already started.:(
Click to expand...
There have been separatist goons shelling Ukrainian military positions for months, hoping to provoke the Ukranian military to violate the Minsk Agreement and give Putin the false flag he seeks to justify an invasion.
 
anatta said:
well then...
why not just SAY IT - give Putin what he wants ( not NATO rollbacks - but no Uk membership either)
and extract a concession back from him?
Click to expand...
What concession would you suggest be worth changing NATO charter and reducing its power?
 
Metric Mouse said:
What concession would you suggest be worth changing NATO charter and reducing its power?
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ya.changing the charter is the tough part. im not trying to sugarcoat it -but by the look of things Uk will eventually get in unless Germany or France decide they dont want to war for Donbas.
and the corruption etc (im far from expert on NATO requirements)
There must be a mechanism ...beyond my pay grade though

lots of concessions in terms of of a conditional promise by Putin not to invade LDNR
or of course any part of Ukraine. maybe get him to stop supplying the separatists with heavy weapons?
I'm just thinking out loud. But get talks going. Make it conditional that Zelensky be a part as well.
We need some diplomacy instead of massing by Putin and saber rattling by US
 
Macaroni is going to look like Neville Chamberlain by the time all is said and done.
 
anatta said:
ya.changing the charter is the tough part. im not trying to sugarcoat it -but by the look of things Uk will eventually get in unless Germany or France decide they dont want to war for Donbas.
and the corruption etc (im far from expert on NATO requirements)
There must be a mechanism ...beyond my pay grade though

lots of concessions in terms of of a conditional promise by Putin not to invade LDNR
or of course any part of Ukraine. maybe get him to stop supplying the separatists with heavy weapons?
I'm just thinking out loud. But get talks going. Make it conditional that Zelensky be a part as well.
We need some diplomacy instead of massing by Putin and saber rattling by US
Click to expand...

That’s a possibility.

The Russian brinksmanship of the last couple of months make that far more likely than it was even a year ago.
 
anatta said:
ya.changing the charter is the tough part. im not trying to sugarcoat it -but by the look of things Uk will eventually get in unless Germany or France decide they dont want to war for Donbas.
and the corruption etc (im far from expert on NATO requirements)
There must be a mechanism ...beyond my pay grade though

lots of concessions in terms of of a conditional promise by Putin not to invade LDNR
or of course any part of Ukraine. maybe get him to stop supplying the separatists with heavy weapons?
I'm just thinking out loud. But get talks going. Make it conditional that Zelensky be a part as well.
We need some diplomacy instead of massing by Putin and saber rattling by US
Click to expand...
Talks have been ongoing. Russia wants changes to NATO. NATO isn't going to change because Russia asks. As each party has stuck to their guns on that, there is only so far talks can go.
 
LetsGoBrandon said:
There have been separatist goons shelling Ukrainian military positions for months, hoping to provoke the Ukranian military to violate the Minsk Agreement and give Putin the false flag he seeks to justify an invasion.
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That's true, and that's why the sentiment expressed to the reporter was a change.

Let's go 'lgb'!
 
LetsGoBrandon said:
I think Putin wants to invade so badly he can taste it, however he may by now have worked out that Ukraine will not just fold like a pretzel and capitulate. They will fight. and in all likelihood there will be an insurgency. It will not just be a walk in like Crimea. 50,000 dead in Ukraine and perhaps thousands of dead Russian soldiers will not be a good look for Russia. The gain may not be worth the long term consequences of Russia starting a major war in Europe.
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Putin is smart, so the section I bolded is exactly what he would have thought about in the Ukraine invasion scenario. There's no scenario where this ends up being a net gain for Russia, and the troop build up was the first test to see the reaction from NATO. Now that the economic impacts are clear, it seems like an even worse outlook.
 
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