Louisiana Lawmaker Forced to Clarify There Was No ‘Good’ in Slavery

[Master Debator]

I don’t feel that such evidence exists. It is generally understood and it is often written about by more or less conventional sources.

How can there be no evidence of something you claim to be generally understood?

Some say this decline is ‘managed decline’ and suits an elite class in America that has means to benefit. I admit to uncertainty as to its causes.

I have no idea what decline you're talking about.

It can be the sort of conventional argument (a la Spengler and also of Richard Weaver) of the decline of civilization. My thought is that there is definitely decline in some areas, beside tremendous technological advances.

Which areas?

I am not at all interested in the game of presenting evidence as if by doing so you’d accept it and agree.

Of course you aren't. Because you can't.

 

[Alizia Tyler]

From the article our Nobel submitted:

To understand how that can be true, first imagine six individuals: two each from the continents of Africa, Asia, and Europe. Again, all of these individuals will be remarkably the same:

Sure, and one of those creates what we understand to be Occidental civilization. It creates societies to which everyone wishes to emigrate.

One of them creates very little and will likely create nothing substantial. In truth, wherever it thrives, it replicates Third World environments, violence, authoritarian rule, and down-descent.

What is the matter with me that I’m such a wrongseer?

(One creates sushi of course and even Pearl Harbor is forgiven ….)

 

[phoenix2020]

I don’t feel that such evidence exists. It is generally understood and it is often written about by more or less conventional sources.

Good of you to at least admit that these supposed changes are just a feeling of yours and not actually based on any evidence. If only the 2020 election truthers were as transparent about their position as you are…

 

[Alizia Tyler]

How can there be no evidence of something you claim to be generally understood?

You are an odd bird. Those that have the perspective I refer to present arguments in their essays and books. To know this you’d have to read. Have you read Spengler? Have you read Weaver? Do you read at all?!?

Of course not! You are outside of the entire conversation except as your narcissist’s forum-game.

You’d do well to expand your horizons . . .

 

[Alizia Tyler]

Good of you to at least admit that these supposed changes are just a feeling of yours and not actually based on any evidence.

Nice try. But I meant evidence that can be presented as a clickable link. Of the sort that can be presented on a forum!

 

[Master Debator]

From the article our Nobel submitted:

Sure, and one of those creates what we understand to be Occidental civilization. It creates societies to which everyone wishes to emigrate.

The civilizations everyone wants to emigrate to are democratic multicultural ones and democracy isn't limited to white cultures. In fact racist white cultures would almost certainly have to limit democracy in order to realize their racist goals.

One of them creates very little and will likely create nothing substantial. In truth, wherever it thrives, it replicates Third World environments, violence, authoritarian rule, and down-descent.

Here in America white racists created the deplorable societies of slave owning rapists and segregationists. It was black Civil rights activists that helped create the society we have here today.

 

[Master Debator]

You are an odd bird. Those that have the perspective I refer to present arguments in their essays and books. To know this you’d have to read. Have you read Spengler? Have you read Weaver? Do you read at all?!?

Of course not! You are outside of the entire conversation except as your narcissist’s forum-game.

You’d do well to expand your horizons . . .

I've read plenty of those arguments, they're as ridiculous and stupid in their books as they are here in your presentation of them.

Nice try. But I meant evidence that can be presented as a clickable link. Of the sort that can be presented on a forum!

You don't understand @phoenix2020 she has the evidence she just left it in her other forum.

 

[Ouroboros]

Alizia has claimed that "races" are incompatible but I'm not entirely sure what sort of incompatibility she's talking about and so I point out ways in which they are perfectly compatible.

No, that's a way of pointing out how their biologically compatible. Pointing out the spread of cultural influences, from Christianity spreading from the middle East to Europe, Asia and America, or capitalisms spread across the globe should be evidence enough to disprove the that bit of nonsense. If you want to claim a specific aspect of one culture is incompatible with specific aspects of another culture that could be debated and examined but then Alizia would have to actually specify what incompatibility she's talking about.

Race is real but it it's not genetic



You gave one example, abolitionist culture, some of whos most famous members were black. That is evidence of compatibility, not incompatibility.

I don't know what brown culture is and I recognize black american culture as result of white subjugation, segregation and exclusion of black Americans from white society. Black culture has no meaning outside that context of racial exclusion. The cultures of Kenyans and black Americans and Jamaicans are all very different despite their all sharing relatively close skin tones and can't be lumped into a category of a single black culture. Cultural differences exist but they're regional and mutable not racial and permanent except to racists.

I'm pretty sure that AT has not asserted that the races cannot interbreed, so there's no substance in arguing that point. I believe that she has offered examples of cultural dissonance and that you've just ignored them rather than arguing that her examples were specifically flawed.

The fact that cultures borrow from one another does not prove compatibility. When the Muslims preserved a certain amount of Greek learning, they had no great interest in the culture of Greece; they were concerned with harvesting data about Greek math and science.

Now, Black citizens who worked alongside White abolitionists were INDIVIDUALLY compatible, but that in itself does not prove overall cultural compatibility.

Most of the times I've used "White Culture" and "Black Culture" on this thread to signify the culture shared by Americans of those races, so I have not been emphasizing any connection between White Americans and White Europeans, or between Black Americans and Black Africans, EXCEPT when specifically addressing how key ideas were passed down from White Europeans to White Americans and to whatever Black Americans were interested in said ideas. There were evidently some religious practices passed down from Black Africa to Black America but that seems to be the only connection. All cultural ideas are somewhat mutable but while they aren't permanent some are extraordinarily persistent, and so can't be brushed off as being regional. Think of Weber's characterization of Americans as devoted to deferred gratification, or Veblen's concept of conspicuous consumption. These weren't limited to Americans only, but they spanned so much territory here that I would not call them "regional."

 

[Master Debator]

I'm pretty sure that AT has not asserted that the races cannot interbreed, so there's no substance in arguing that point. I believe that she has offered examples of cultural dissonance and that you've just ignored them rather than arguing that her examples were specifically flawed.

If you believe that then provide these examples that I've ignored.

The fact that cultures borrow from one another does not prove compatibility. When the Muslims preserved a certain amount of Greek learning, they had no great interest in the culture of Greece; they were concerned with harvesting data about Greek math and science.

Muslim culture isn't a fixed thing. There are American Muslims, Chinese Muslims, African Muslims as well as Middle Eastern Muslims and they can be as progressive and liberal as Ilhan Omar or as radical and fundamentalist as Ayman al Zawahiri.

Now, Black citizens who worked alongside White abolitionists were INDIVIDUALLY compatible, but that in itself does not prove overall cultural compatibility.

It certainly doesn't prove cultural incompatibility.

All cultural ideas are somewhat mutable but while they aren't permanent some are extraordinarily persistent, and so can't be brushed off as being regional. Think of Weber's characterization of Americans as devoted to deferred gratification, or Veblen's concept of conspicuous consumption. These weren't limited to Americans only, but they spanned so much territory here that I would not call them "regional."

If you want to make the case that some cultural ideas are incompatible with others then you'd have to be specific what exactly you're talking about and so far I have no clue what incompatibility you or Alizia are referring to.

 

[Alizia Tyler]

I've read plenty of those arguments, they're as ridiculous and stupid in their books as they are here in your presentation of them.

Yes, I believe that I can understand why you would see them as such (though I also know that you have not ever read Spengler or Weaver!)

Nevertheless, what is taking shape in front of us all -- even if you cannot fully see it, or choose not to see it -- is the opening of the *fissures* that have appeared in the nation's edifice. I did not live during the Civil Rights era, or the Sixties era, and I know that the US has been through various crises and got through them -- indeed it got through a world war -- but in my limited historical experience what is happening today seems quite different, more consequential. Is it a revisit of the Sixties? or a culmination or fruition of Sixties issues?

I honestly do not know how to put all the information and perspectives together into some sort of *operative perspective*. (And you do know I hope that when I write in this *personal* way -- as if you could hear any of this, as if you were even interested! -- I do so not because I think I could successfully communicate with you, or that you'd agree with any part, but because it is a public forum and numerous people read here). You are the inspiration for a certain general counter-argument that I attempt to put together, but what I feel I am speaking to (and about) is the régime that is so powerful in America today. I believe it to be essentially an elite régime -- a power-class within America that has the most power to direct its affairs -- but I am uncertain how to characterize it.

Still, as a point to start from, and in speaking about *destruction* or *decline* or *social & political chaos* or *American decline* and obviously other things too, the issue of decline is present for all to see, and many do see it. I would locate that decline and destruction primarily within the fracturation I have named. It does not bode well that such dramatic divisions have developed.

But with that said, and in relation to you, we have already established that your metaphysical predicates are enormously distinct from, for example, mine and of course those who see and think as I do (or similarly). So the thing to pay attention to in my opinion, in these conversations we are having, is not solely the specifics of the conflicts and differences of view/opinion -- such as the demographics and culture-shift I have noted -- but the structures of view of those who have such divergent values and focus. The operative ideas have to be isolated and seen.

If it seems (as it seems to me) that I am thinking out-loud here, it is true. I do not know what to think about the civil conflict that is on-going, meaning that I am aware of it certainly, but uncertain what to conclude and even at times what precisely to support (and what not to support).

Just Googling "America's fracture" or "the fracture of America" pulls up dozens of references to one of the core issues of the day.

This was made in 2018 when things were significantly less hot than they seem now. Ezra Klein is of course definitely 'progressive' and left-oriented, but his exposition at least gets many things out on the table:

 

[Master Debator]

Nevertheless, what is taking shape in front of us all -- even if you cannot fully see it, or choose not to see it -- is the opening of the *fissures* that have appeared in the nation's edifice. I did not live during the Civil Rights era, or the Sixties era, and I know that the US has been through various crises and got through them -- indeed it got through a world war -- but in my limited historical experience what is happening today seems quite different, more consequential. Is it a revisit of the Sixties? or a culmination or fruition of Sixties issues?

More coward commentary. I have no idea what incompatibility or decline you're referring to and you don't appear to brave enough to offer up any specifics.

I honestly do not know how to put all the information and perspectives together into some sort of *operative perspective*.

That much is apparent.

Still, as a point to start from, and in speaking about *destruction* or *decline* or *social & political chaos* or *American decline* and obviously other things too, the issue of decline is present for all to see, and many do see it. I would locate that decline and destruction primarily within the fracturation I have named. It does not bode well that such dramatic divisions have developed.

More general vagueness.

Here's what I know. Disagreement and conflict are as American as apple pie. It the reason the founders put the protecting of freedom of speech first, so we could have the right to voice disagreement with each other and our government. Maybe you and yours aren't cut out for that. Maybe disagreement and conflict frighten you. But then maybe you aren't cut out to be American.

 

[Alizia Tyler]

I have no idea what incompatibility or decline you're referring to

In the above post fracture was addressed. Not incompatibility.

If you are unaware of the decline and fracture I refer to in the context of the demographic and political conflicts which have erupted, and if these seem merely run of the mill, I won’t be able to help.

You might need to get better informed. Only you can do that for yourself. There are dozens — hundred — of references and articles.

 

[Alizia Tyler]

The truth about Apple Pie.

“Rather than the good old US-of-A, apple pie as we know it first originated in England, where it developed from culinary influences from France, the Netherlands, and even the Ottoman Empire. In fact, apples weren't even native to North America until the Europeans arrived.”​

Were you thinking of indigenous Acorn Pie?

 

[Master Debator]

In the above post fracture was addressed. Not incompatibility.

All seems to be a part of the same vague omens in service of xenophobia.

If you are unaware of the decline and fracture I refer to in the context of the demographic and political conflicts which have erupted, and if these seem merely run of the mill, I won’t be able to help.

And I'm not even pretending to be trying to help you be less of a coward.

You might need to get better informed. Only you can do that for yourself. There are dozens — hundred — of references and articles.

The one video you just pointed to indicates that more conservative individuals are scared different looking and different sounding people, almost as if they were complete cowards like I just explained.

 

[Master Debator]

The truth about Apple Pie.

​

“Rather than the good old US-of-A, apple pie as we know it first originated in England, where it developed from culinary influences from France, the Netherlands, and even the Ottoman Empire. In fact, apples weren't even native to North America until the Europeans arrived.”​

Were you thinking of indigenous Acorn Pie?

See this is what I'm talking about. Are you even American? I am and so is apple pie. I didn't ask you were the **** it came from because I don't give a shit. It belongs to us now. Like pizza. We put cheese on it and pepperoni and pineapple and now that shit belongs to us. You know who cares if the Italians are salty about that? Not one damn American, that's who. Tacos? That's ours too. **** corn tortillas. That's what we do here. If there's one thing more American than baseball or apple pie it's taking people's shit and making it ours. Now some cucks want to cry because some immigrants came here and did just that? Well maybe they're more American than you are. And maybe the self proclaimed illiberals and anti democratic dissidents are the real threat. But they're not one I'm worried about.

 

[Alizia Tyler]

Whether you Dear FTP like, dislike, understand or misunderstand what I write, and whether you condemn or praise either my certitude or my uncertainty, or any inclination to suggest conclusiveness or to hold back from the same, means nothing to me.

The one video you just pointed to indicates that more conservative individuals are scared [of] different looking and different sounding people, almost as if they were complete cowards like I just explained.

That is Ezra Klein unless I am mistaken. Now with the NYTs.

 

[Master Debator]

Whether you Dear FTP like, dislike, understand or misunderstand what I write, and whether you condemn or praise either my certitude or my uncertainty, or any inclination to suggest conclusiveness or to hold back from the same, means nothing to me.

That is Ezra Klein unless I am mistaken. Now with the NYTs.

You're the one who linked to it and said it "gets many things on the table".

If you're frightened by more than brown skin and strange accents then be my guest and explain what exactly this incompatibility is or why a fractured electorate is anything to be concerned about. I'm not afraid of disagreement. Are you?

 

[Alizia Tyler]

Now some cucks want to cry because some immigrants came here and did just that?

Relax . Calm down! Appropriate to your heart content!

I am a naturalized American originally from Venezuela. Did you not catch that? I might have said “I’m as Venezuelan as hallacas” (but it wouldn’t be true — that was never a family dish for us, and I have out America’d America at this point!)

 

[Alizia Tyler]

If you're frightened by more than brown skin and strange accents then be my guest and explain what exactly this incompatibility is or why a fractured electorate is anything to be concerned about. I'm not afraid of disagreement. Are you?

Did you listen to the whole talk? It will help you to get better oriented:

 

[Master Debator]

Did you listen to the whole talk? It will help you to get better oriented:

Yea, you posted that before and I listened to that nonsense and wasn't impressed by Taylor's dire predictions of white genocide.

 

[Alizia Tyler]

Yea, you posted that before and I listened to that nonsense and wasn't impressed by Taylor's dire predictions of white genocide.

Though I guess this difference of view could’ve been predicted? OTOH, I regard Taylor’s presentation as upstanding, reasonable, comprehensible, as well as ethical and moral (in the true senses of those terms).

It really matters nothing if you were not impressed. The real real question (for one who could think in fair snd honest terms) is are his ideas fair, coherent, reasonable and justifiable? The answer is plain: yes indeed they are. Without doubt, beyond argument.

Except for you and you-plural. You unfairly and unethically negate his grounding in reason, fairness, logic and justice, because of personal and group hatred. It is all clear in what you write! You do not conceal any part of it. You state it plainly and clearly.

Because this is so, and because you represent a larger, general movement, and one in which your intentionality has been defined and displayed, at this point the conversation could proceed to the question of ramifications.

But with you the actual conversation, the discussion of the real meaning, is always blocked with various rhetorical and sophistical parries.

You have no choice but to inhibit the fair and open conversation as you are able. For obvious reasons!

“That’s what weapons are for” is how you put it.

You are the spearpoint of an aggressive, Marxian praxis-inspired social movement that intends to topple a demographic (if topple is the right term) as well as restructure ideology in accord with similarly grounded praxis.

 

[Ouroboros]

If you believe that then provide these examples that I've ignored.

Muslim culture isn't a fixed thing. There are American Muslims, Chinese Muslims, African Muslims as well as Middle Eastern Muslims and they can be as progressive and liberal as Ilhan Omar or as radical and fundamentalist as Ayman al Zawahiri.

It certainly doesn't prove cultural incompatibility.

If you want to make the case that some cultural ideas are incompatible with others then you'd have to be specific what exactly you're talking about and so far I have no clue what incompatibility you or Alizia are referring to.

Since I specified the historical instance in which Arab Muslims preserved Greek learning, that would be an example in which Arab Muslims showed no interest in Greek culture, despite having translated a good hunk of it. At the same time, I believe other Muslims had even less interest in learning anything about the Greeks, so all Muslims prior to the modern era demonstrate incompatibility of cultures when they don’t share at least some major philosophical priorities. White Europeans shared such priorities with White Americans, so there was less cultural dissonance between those groups. But I repeat that the act of borrowing ideas from other cultures does not prove cultural compatibility.

I would prefer to let AT to weigh on her interpretation of incompatibility in whatever forms she chooses to explore.

 

[Master Debator]

Since I specified the historical instance in which Arab Muslims preserved Greek learning, that would be an example in which Arab Muslims showed no interest in Greek culture, despite having translated a good hunk of it. At the same time, I believe other Muslims had even less interest in learning anything about the Greeks, so all Muslims prior to the modern era demonstrate incompatibility of cultures when they don’t share at least some major philosophical priorities.

What are you talking about? Who cares if Muslims aren't interested in learning about Greek culture? What does a lack of interest in Greek culture have to do with incompatibility? In what sense? I don't give a shit about Greek culture either other than enjoying a nice kebab every now and then but I can live peacefully next to greek americans without much issue. I still don't understand in what sense you're implying incompatibility.

White Europeans shared such priorities with White Americans, so there was less cultural dissonance between those groups. But I repeat that the act of borrowing ideas from other cultures does not prove cultural compatibility.

I don't have to prove anything. Alizia is the one claiming incompatibility, the onus of proof is on her. You claimed she provided this proof and I ignored it, the onus of providing that evidence is on you. If you want to see that Greeks and Muslims can live side by side go visit New York.

I would prefer to let AT to weigh on her interpretation of incompatibility in whatever forms she chooses to explore.

So would I but I doubt the coward will delve into specifics.

 

[Alizia Tyler]

I would prefer to let AT to weigh on her interpretation of incompatibility in whatever forms she chooses to explore.

I don't have to prove anything. Alizia is the one claiming incompatibility, the onus of proof is on her. You claimed she provided this proof and I ignored it, the onus of providing that evidence is on you. If you want to see that Greeks and Muslims can live side by side go visit New York.

I believe I have already expressed it many different times. I referred to Angela Davis who referred to the Black experience as having “been robbed from the shores of Africa” and transported to the plantations of the South. I did of course insert another line (where it came from I can’t remember) “and forced to labor in the empire of the white man’s will”. It really says it all.

One aspect of social and political incompatibility is quite simply within that historical picture — a tragedy in so many senses, and yet something to utterly human (in terms of the wide, human experience) as to qualify as ‘human, all too human’.

My understanding (reading a good deal of Black literature) is that this fact, this act, this history, proposes to Blacks an insoluble problem. “How can I as a bona fide person, with dignity, ever agree to acquiesce to that bondage?“ And the further issue becomes How can such a person, a human being, ever reconcile theirself to live, passively and peaceably, within the entire Structure which is, esentially, that of *the white man‘s will*.

That knowledge, that grasp of the facts, seems to produce in Black (speaking generally) a malicia indigina. It is a complex term to some degree, but it refers to a deep-seated attitude of resentment coupled with an attitude, or intention, to “get even”. You could describe it as a will to cheating in a given transaction; or resistance; or non-cooperation to ‘the white man’s plans’. It can operate like a justification. For example, malicia indigina operates, psychologically, within Latinos and in Latino culture, generally vis-a-vis Gringos. It is a sense, deeply embedded, that they deserve to have something taken from them. If there is a deal (a negotiation, an exchange) it is the Gringo who must lose.

I get 6 he gets 4 — justice!

So, social and psychological attitudes, which certainly exist, and seem to go on existing and operating hundreds of years later, bespeak *rebellion* *resistance* and *non-cooperation*.

I know, I know — many Black think they deserve something. Something to even the score. FTP for example wants ‘reparations’.

So right at the very core of the social-psychological problem, in which I identify *incompatibility* , is this basic and ever-present attitude. Is it somatic? That is, living in the body? Or is it merely ‘deeply psychological’? and still a ‘category of the mind’?

But it really seems to lead to basic, incontrovertible problems. Blacks cannot really be happy until they have not only earned their *freedom* (it was not earned but granted by high-minded Whites) but attained their freedom through reverse-domination. Meaning, to reverse the historical roles in one way or another.

So there’s that. A great deal to be thought on here.

But the other is to exist in a state of total non-cooperation and resistance. To turn against all tides. To subvert moral and social codes. To be constantly a problem, an obstruction.

And to need, internally and also morally, to define their own independent path, even if there really is not one. That is, not the *white man’s* path but their own path, even if it is ridiculously primitive — like recovering an African religion and sacrificing doves to Obatala and proposing something to confront and challenge the Christian God (to which slaves bowed down and became, to some degree, docile).

To have been made docile through religious trickery! Aaaaaarrggghhh!

As I say Fight the Power is a wonderful example of all the traits I have here listed. He revels in his newly realized destructive power. He really can impose himself now within history! He can thwart *white man’s* plans and even Coca-Cola seems to be on his side against ‘Whitey’. (But Coca-Cola is on Coca-Cola’s side . . . )

Within this area I would define *incompatibility* to the Caucasian peoples who really can achieve great things among themselves, by themselves. The “Negro’ is a really substantial burden. He can’t make it. He won’t make it! He constantly lags behind and demands that everyone surrounding be brought down to his level.

Define goals and aspirations of civilization?!?

C’mon man! says Fearless Leader.

 

[Alizia Tyler]

So would I but I doubt the coward will delve into specifics.

In a way I am a coward! But then in another I am really not a coward. Given what I have been willing to put on the line. And given how the ideas I share run so strongly against the grain.

I could say as well that you, FTP, are a coward. There is so much you have not examined in detail. You put up so many *false-fronts*.