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Looks like a judge made the right decision...

I am still waiting on something from you to state why you believe a fetus isn't a human being.

You have attempted to disprove everythign I have mentioned. Right down to ignoring the definition of a word in your attempts to discredit me. But you haven't given any reasoning at all about why I am incorrect.

You are simply telling me I am wrong and then assuming I am supposed to agree with you because you said so. You need to give me more than that.

What information are you basing your assumptions on?
Why are you trying to tell everyone that a fetus isn't an unborn child even though I showed you the exact definition of the word fetus where it clearly sates that a fetus is an unborn child?
Why are you saying that this fetus is invading her body when it was formed there?
Why are you trying to say that this fetus has commited crimes and then say that you can't prosecute this fetus under the crimes that you say it has commited?
 
Tinker said:
TryReading,
Your posts seem more sensable than some of the others around here. I would be more than happy to discuss with you some of these issues.

Although, I suppose these topics are probably better discussed in their own thread instead of highjacking all the perfectly good issues being discussed here.

Discuss them here. Nobody is complaining. But I'm not all that sensible.
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by Voidwar:
I don't have the right to invade and parasitize another human against her will, and neither does it.
Funny how you think you have that right when it's a whole country of humans.
 
Tinker said:
I am still waiting on something from you to state why you believe a fetus isn't a human being.

I am making the point to you that it doesn't MATTER whether it is or ain't.

Even if you could prove it was human, humans don't have the right to hijack each other's plumbing.

I don't have the right to invade and parasitize another human against her will, , ,and I am indisputably human.
 
Tinker said:
A fetus, since you are so set on attempting to de-humanize a baby with another name, is not invading another human without her will. The act of sex is the only invasion of her body and in the greatest majority of cases that is consensual.

The parasitization that you refer too is a direct consequence of her actions. She is still shirking the responsibility of her actions. Instead of being celibate until she is ready to have children, she wants to be a rabbit and not take responsibility for what she is doing.

What is more, the problem still remains. What about the rights of the unborn fetus. A fetus is a child, a human child, just in a different location, different level of development and different size than a child after birth. There really isn't any difference between an unborn child and a fetus are the EXACT same thing.

Fetus is a techinical term used by pro abortionists to de-humanize the unborn.

Now, let's take this issue back to the abortion area and get back to the issue at hand, shall we?


Tinker...again with words and not any proof of them. Sorry, I like you and all, but will not take your word for information regarding pregnancies.


http://www.babyjebus.net/Anatomy/development.htm

Try this out for size and tell me when you want to hold and take it home. I think the first trimester is okay to label the embryo and fetus and not able to withstand life outside the womb and there for not an individual.

Unless I'm mistaken, it takes a man, or semen, to impregnate a woman.. When does this pregnancy become all her fault? Are you a religious follower of the the Madonna/Whore theories of women? I'm not buying the low life female you want to create here...we all have instances where things happen in our lives because we believe someone.

Fetus is a technical term...it's the development of a pregnancy stage in the woman's womb. It's a medical term. They deal best with pregnant women. Wouldn't even want to think of accountants taking care of that.

Show me your proof that democrats de-humanize life. I want the source. I'll be glad to get you the pictures of the dead from Iraq while you look....

You brought the topic here and again, it won't set right with me to let your lies go unaddressed.

I'm here for you, Tinker...always...
 
One thing I am purposefully leaving out of this discussion is rape. There is a whole other discussion there.

The pregnancy isn't 'all her fault', as you say, it takes two. If the fetus growing inside of her is 'half hers' and 'half his' why doesn't the father have any say in this? "Because the baby is inside of her" is the defacto answer.

The only blame I am laying on her is this. She let his penis inside of her and the subsequent semen. In consentual sex, which I am currently limiting this to, the man and woman entered this sexual encounter knowingly and open mindedly with full knowledge of possible consequences of their actions. The whole purpose of abortion is to remove the consequences of her actions. She doesn't have to face up to what she has done and neither does the he in the equation.

Perhaps the greater problem is the lack of morals on the part of both parties to think that indescriminate sport sex is fine. If anything goes wrong, just go to the doctor and make the problem go away. We aren't done living selfishly yet. Neither party is thinking of how special it is to save yourself for your spouse for the first night. They are more interested in keeping score.
(Admitting my own hypocracy here. I didn't wait to get married to have sex the first time. And i have regretted it every day since. So hypocrite I may be, but punished for my actions, I am. No, my girl friend didn't have an abortion. We were always careful.)
 
Tinker said:
No, my girl friend didn't have an abortion. We were always careful.)
No no no no no no no no,

you were always LUCKY.
 
Lucky, perhaps. I could also say that my God knew what was in store for my life and didn't allow anything like that to happen.
 
Tinker said:
One thing I am purposefully leaving out of this discussion is rape. There is a whole other discussion there.

The pregnancy isn't 'all her fault', as you say, it takes two. If the fetus growing inside of her is 'half hers' and 'half his' why doesn't the father have any say in this? "Because the baby is inside of her" is the defacto answer.

The only blame I am laying on her is this. She let his penis inside of her and the subsequent semen. In consentual sex, which I am currently limiting this to, the man and woman entered this sexual encounter knowingly and open mindedly with full knowledge of possible consequences of their actions. The whole purpose of abortion is to remove the consequences of her actions. She doesn't have to face up to what she has done and neither does the he in the equation.

Perhaps the greater problem is the lack of morals on the part of both parties to think that indescriminate sport sex is fine. If anything goes wrong, just go to the doctor and make the problem go away. We aren't done living selfishly yet. Neither party is thinking of how special it is to save yourself for your spouse for the first night. They are more interested in keeping score.
(Admitting my own hypocracy here. I didn't wait to get married to have sex the first time. And i have regretted it every day since. So hypocrite I may be, but punished for my actions, I am. No, my girl friend didn't have an abortion. We were always careful.)


You're leaving out the part where he's whispering "I'll love you forever, dear, and don't have me wear a condemn...I want to FEEL you inside..."

You certainly have a lot of judgment but obviously little experience in life. You are looking at human interactions and have them all pidgeoned holed into one neat little package of your faith called the Madonna/Whore syndrome...or "Men don't marry bad girls."

You crack me up, Tinker....your world doesn't exist....you have created it...need to open your eyes and be less judgemental on others' lives and take care that your own doesn't crash in on you...know what they say...Pride goeth before the fall.

It's not anyone's fault...stuff happens...To get rid of legalized abortion will not stop abortion. I say make it legal and sanitary.

Oh, BTW, the job of GOD has been filled...you might want to try saint, though, Thinker...
 
Little experience in life...

Mom in and out of mental institutions, including those for the criminally insane, for the first 12 years of my life. Raised by my father, grandmother and older sister.

I have two neices who had children before they were 15. My brother is an alcoholic because his wife has tied a noose around his neck with her mother's apron strings, and one of my sisters, (the one who raised me), has also had a child out of wedlock, and is more worried about getting to the next Star Trek Convention than taking care of her 4 kids. My other sister has had five children by 5 different men one of which wasn't married to her, although he was married, and another was physically and verbally abusive to her.

I myself spent time in the service, overseas. I was stationed in Germany when Saddam invaded Kuwait. I watched the incidents of Clap and Gohnorea more than double in just a couple of weeks as the reservist from the states were sent to my base temporarily. One woman had to go home and explain why she was two month pregnant after spending 3 months in Germany.

No I have no idea about the real, gritty underside of life. Never had any experience with the problems that life can throw your way.

The world I paint is one that isn't all that seperated form this one. As a matter of fact, it is the life led by most americans a short 60 years ago. People were self disciplined, self controlled, and mindfull of the feelings, emotions and the rights of others. Today, to many people want what they want and forget about what it might do to anybody else. Instant gratification, situational ethics, and the complete lack of concern for anyone else.

Parents don't raise their kids, they let babysitters, day cares and schools do that for them. Parents are too busy trying to pay the bills on all the stuff they baught to keep up with the Joneses. The kids get a barely adequate education, and little or no moral foundation to base their life's decisions on.

If these statements weren't true, then why are gangs running rampant in most cities in America? Why have there been more than 43 million abortions in the us in the last 30 odd years? Why are cities, counties and states, raising taxes to pay for the building of a newer bigger jail to hold all the criminals?

Those are some pretty big why's that didn't need to be asked before the 60's.
 
Tinker said:
Little experience in life...

Mom in and out of mental institutions, including those for the criminally insane, for the first 12 years of my life. Raised by my father, grandmother and older sister.

I have two neices who had children before they were 15. My brother is an alcoholic because his wife has tied a noose around his neck with her mother's apron strings, and one of my sisters, (the one who raised me), has also had a child out of wedlock, and is more worried about getting to the next Star Trek Convention than taking care of her 4 kids. My other sister has had five children by 5 different men one of which wasn't married to her, although he was married, and another was physically and verbally abusive to her.

I myself spent time in the service, overseas. I was stationed in Germany when Saddam invaded Kuwait. I watched the incidents of Clap and Gohnorea more than double in just a couple of weeks as the reservist from the states were sent to my base temporarily. One woman had to go home and explain why she was two month pregnant after spending 3 months in Germany.

No I have no idea about the real, gritty underside of life. Never had any experience with the problems that life can throw your way.

The world I paint is one that isn't all that seperated form this one. As a matter of fact, it is the life led by most americans a short 60 years ago. People were self disciplined, self controlled, and mindfull of the feelings, emotions and the rights of others. Today, to many people want what they want and forget about what it might do to anybody else. Instant gratification, situational ethics, and the complete lack of concern for anyone else.

Parents don't raise their kids, they let babysitters, day cares and schools do that for them. Parents are too busy trying to pay the bills on all the stuff they baught to keep up with the Joneses. The kids get a barely adequate education, and little or no moral foundation to base their life's decisions on.

If these statements weren't true, then why are gangs running rampant in most cities in America? Why have there been more than 43 million abortions in the us in the last 30 odd years? Why are cities, counties and states, raising taxes to pay for the building of a newer bigger jail to hold all the criminals?

Those are some pretty big why's that didn't need to be asked before the 60's.


OMG, everyone has a story on the internet, Tinker. I can assure you yours is not unique.

There were illegitimate babies in the 1950's and there were back alley abortions which killed women. Your experiences in Germany hardly depict America who had a great number of people trying to raise the status of minorities in a nation which saw minorities hung in the 1950's. Women were of second class nature (muck like they are now) and living under the heavy hand of husbands who chose to be such.

The times from 1980 to current are the direct result of the fundamentalist New Wave Christians and the conservatives. We have hate-mongering, anti-poor cries and people who would not more help someone in need then they would buy an old car. Material values are the highest ever.

You need to look around..your country is gone...forever...Bush has given you a global land in which to live...America is dead...and your party killed it.
 
Tinker said:
Little experience in life...

Mom in and out of mental institutions, including those for the criminally insane, for the first 12 years of my life. Raised by my father, grandmother and older sister.

I have two neices who had children before they were 15. My brother is an alcoholic because his wife has tied a noose around his neck with her mother's apron strings, and one of my sisters, (the one who raised me), has also had a child out of wedlock, and is more worried about getting to the next Star Trek Convention than taking care of her 4 kids. My other sister has had five children by 5 different men one of which wasn't married to her, although he was married, and another was physically and verbally abusive to her.

I myself spent time in the service, overseas. I was stationed in Germany when Saddam invaded Kuwait. I watched the incidents of Clap and Gohnorea more than double in just a couple of weeks as the reservist from the states were sent to my base temporarily. One woman had to go home and explain why she was two month pregnant after spending 3 months in Germany.

No I have no idea about the real, gritty underside of life. Never had any experience with the problems that life can throw your way.

And when you were a kid, did you have to walk through the snow to and from school every morning, up hill both ways?
 
TryReading - LOL, No, I didn't have to walk to school up hill both ways. But I did stand in the snow bank on the side of the road waiting for the bus. Does that count?

Muddy - I posted that synopsis of my life story not to say I was special far from it. I was merely pointing out that I am not as far removed from the worst case scenarios that seem to be the favorits examples of some folks around here as it seems.

And I do have a question. How is it that the hate mongering conservative christians killed america? When did they tell anyone that premarital sex was okay? When did they ever say that homosexuality was right? When did they say that marriage was a tax break to be used and thrown away when ever it felt comfortable? When did they decide that murdering innocent children in the womb was fine? When did they endorse situational ethics?

How did this 'conservative right wing hate mongering christian group' destroy the morals, ethics and values that made this country great in the first place? From what i can tell, they have done what they could to save the morals and values of this country. Granted, they didn't always do it the best way they could, but they tried.
 
Tinker said:
Lucky, perhaps. I could also say that my God knew what was in store for my life and didn't allow anything like that to happen.

Considering your last post, maybe god just thought he had picked on your clan enough and gave you a free pass :cool:
 
VoidWar,
LOL, "All things are possible". Either a free pass or he had something bigger and better in mind for me. Since the other three obviously stuck their head in their exit only orifice. hehe
 
Tinker said:
And I do have a question. How is it that the hate mongering conservative christians killed america? When did they tell anyone that premarital sex was okay? When did they ever say that homosexuality was right? When did they say that marriage was a tax break to be used and thrown away when ever it felt comfortable? When did they decide that murdering innocent children in the womb was fine? When did they endorse situational ethics?

How did this 'conservative right wing hate mongering christian group' destroy the morals, ethics and values that made this country great in the first place? From what i can tell, they have done what they could to save the morals and values of this country. Granted, they didn't always do it the best way they could, but they tried.
\
Of the religious in this country, what percentage is conservative Christian? The reason I ask is that Christianity is the majority religion here, I think forming about 69% of the public, if I properly recall the last poll I saw. There are a lot of Christians in America. So there must be a lot of conservative Christians here.

The truth is that they engage in premarital sex. They cheat on their wives. They are unethical at times like most people can be. The last poll I saw regarding adultery indicated that 70% of all men cheat on their wife at some point. Christians and conservative Christians make up the majority of that 70%, because they make up the majority of total people. They also make up the majority of tax cheaters, speeders, etc. And a lot of them have had abortions, or persuaded their girlfriends/wives to.

Also, morals and values are qualities that people have, to one degree or another. They are not qualities of the religious only.
 
The distinction you have to make here is not just how many are conservative Christians, but how many are practicing Christianity. There are a majority of the people in this country that profess to be Christians, but they really don't have a clue what being a christian is all about. Most are what have been affectionately referred to as CEO christians, Christmas and Easter Only. Maybe a Thanksgiving weekend thrown in for good measure. Then there are those professing Christianity that the only way they are going to attend church is if they are carried by 6 strong men.

True Christians that not only believe in the Bible, Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior, and who have given thier lives to the Lord are definantly in the minority. I am not boiling this all the way down to clergy only here either. There are many people who are really trying to follow the teachings of Christ, they tend to get lumped in with the right wing fanatic uber conservative types that are more after power than any real desire to see Christ proclaimed to the masses.

No professing or truly Christian person is perfect, we all sin from time to time. The difference is that a true Christian will repent and turn from thier sin and endeavor to never again commit that sin. If you really go tto looking at it and truly understood what being a christian is all about, you would find that there aren't nearly as many CHristians in this country as many would have you believe. And of those few real Christians, the ones having the premarital sex, affairs, and unethical behavior is a whole lot smaller than any one would care to believe.

Morals and values are taught, they aren't genetic. Morals and values have to be taught. So who is teaching the young today morals and values? The daycare who is looking for a check, not an upstanding citizen? Or the school teacher being told what to tell children by a union and activist judges? Morals and values are SUPPOSED to be taught by parents. But how can they when they are holding down two or three jobs to pay alltheir credit card debt down. Or the single parent who has to work two full time jobs to pay for the children they had in or out of wedlock. Their morals and values are already out of whack or they wouldn't be where they are in the first place.

Our level or morals, values, ethics, and integrity have been eroding for the past 50 plus years. And the only people I see trying to stop it are those right wing conservative nuts everyone here keeps hating.

That is one of the problems with Christianity, too many people consider it 'fire insurance', or a way to stay out of hell. That it does, but there is so much more to it than that. The joy that comes from saving a lost soul. The blessings that happen when we obey His teachings and His guidance. The peace that comes about when every thing around you seems to be going wrong. There is so much more to being a Christian than all the can't dos you hear from most pastors or preachers. There is more to it than protesting abortion, or boycotting Ford and Disney for supporting the homosexual lifestyle.

And after saying all this, I reply lastly with, "Your post didn't address my questions. It merely tried to say that christians do it to so it must have been okay. That is not what I asked."
 
Muddy - I posted that synopsis of my life story not to say I was special far from it. I was merely pointing out that I am not as far removed from the worst case scenarios that seem to be the favorits examples of some folks around here as it seems.

And I do have a question. How is it that the hate mongering conservative christians killed america?
tal sex was okay?

By getting us involved in an illegal war, by stopping states rights of gays, by using violence to negate a woman's right to choose and by attempting to abolish our constitution.


When did they tell anyone that premarital sex was okay?

What are you talking about here? You are setting up a straw man..creating a non-existent argument and then trying to defend it..

When did they ever say that homosexuality was right? When did they say that marriage was a tax break to be used and thrown away when ever it felt comfortable? When did they decide that murdering innocent children in the womb was fine? When did they endorse situational ethics?


These are all straw men...say what you mean, boy. Either give a real discussion or go on along and play games...


How did this 'conservative right wing hate mongering christian group' destroy the morals, ethics and values that made this country great in the first place? From what i can tell, they have done what they could to save the morals and values of this country. Granted, they didn't always do it the best way they could, but they tried.

Through violence used against women who have legal rights to abortions, to judging gays as not being worthy of religion and denying gays the state right to marry, by increasing the divorce rate to higher than the marriage rate by voting in block for a party that has taken more good paying jobs out of this country and created financial stress in marriages. And by judging others and creating an atmosphere of hate and fear where once was love and compassion.

The next time you want to discuss issues with someone, don't create such logical fallacies. Bring to the table your facts and issues...it goes smoother like that...
 
Tinker said:
The distinction you have to make here is not just how many are conservative Christians, but how many are practicing Christianity. There are a majority of the people in this country that profess to be Christians, but they really don't have a clue what being a christian is all about. Most are what have been affectionately referred to as CEO christians, Christmas and Easter Only. Maybe a Thanksgiving weekend thrown in for good measure. Then there are those professing Christianity that the only way they are going to attend church is if they are carried by 6 strong men.

True Christians that not only believe in the Bible, Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior, and who have given thier lives to the Lord are definantly in the minority. I am not boiling this all the way down to clergy only here either. There are many people who are really trying to follow the teachings of Christ, they tend to get lumped in with the right wing fanatic uber conservative types that are more after power than any real desire to see Christ proclaimed to the masses.

No professing or truly Christian person is perfect, we all sin from time to time. The difference is that a true Christian will repent and turn from thier sin and endeavor to never again commit that sin. If you really go tto looking at it and truly understood what being a christian is all about, you would find that there aren't nearly as many CHristians in this country as many would have you believe. And of those few real Christians, the ones having the premarital sex, affairs, and unethical behavior is a whole lot smaller than any one would care to believe.

Morals and values are taught, they aren't genetic. Morals and values have to be taught. So who is teaching the young today morals and values? The daycare who is looking for a check, not an upstanding citizen? Or the school teacher being told what to tell children by a union and activist judges? Morals and values are SUPPOSED to be taught by parents. But how can they when they are holding down two or three jobs to pay alltheir credit card debt down. Or the single parent who has to work two full time jobs to pay for the children they had in or out of wedlock. Their morals and values are already out of whack or they wouldn't be where they are in the first place.

Our level or morals, values, ethics, and integrity have been eroding for the past 50 plus years. And the only people I see trying to stop it are those right wing conservative nuts everyone here keeps hating.

That is one of the problems with Christianity, too many people consider it 'fire insurance', or a way to stay out of hell. That it does, but there is so much more to it than that. The joy that comes from saving a lost soul. The blessings that happen when we obey His teachings and His guidance. The peace that comes about when every thing around you seems to be going wrong. There is so much more to being a Christian than all the can't dos you hear from most pastors or preachers. There is more to it than protesting abortion, or boycotting Ford and Disney for supporting the homosexual lifestyle.

And after saying all this, I reply lastly with, "Your post didn't address my questions. It merely tried to say that christians do it to so it must have been okay. That is not what I asked."

No, your distinction in your first paragraph is wrong. Probably, some of those Christians you say aren't practicing might think you don't have a clue as to what Christianity is. They can't be excluded from the ranks of Christianity by you, can they? They know what they believe. They know if they are Christians or not. You should not judge them anyway if you are Christian.



Tinker said:
And I do have a question. How is it that the hate mongering conservative christians killed america? When did they tell anyone that premarital sex was okay? When did they ever say that homosexuality was right? When did they say that marriage was a tax break to be used and thrown away when ever it felt comfortable? When did they decide that murdering innocent children in the womb was fine? When did they endorse situational ethics?

I was responding to this. I never said Christians doing something makes it okay. My point was that these things are done by Christians every day, in very large numbers. Saying or teaching something is wrong is fine, but then doing it just like everybody else is hypocritical. Christians represent over two-thirds of our population, according to the last poll numbers I saw, so I maintain that most of the above acts, by population, are committed by Christians. Most divorces separate Christian couples. Most premarital sex is engaged in by Christians, etc.

Conservative Christians also commit these sins in huge numbers, apply situational ethics, and some (stick your fingers in your ears quickly) are homosexual. But the way you word your questions, one would think they are on the path to ending your list of corruptions. They are not. Like you said, we all sin from time to time.
 
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