Life at Conception

[scatt]

Sorry, nope.

Etymology arguments usually fail for the person using them.

 

[JayDubya]

Feticide is a subset of homicide, just like infanticide, fratricide or any of the other terms that specify a little more about the human being killed.

 

[iangb]

Etymology arguments usually fail for the person using them.

Serves you right for using an etymology/semantic argument then. Which, for the record, is exactly what you did - when you tried in post #999 to define "feticide" as the 'murder of a fetus', and then in post #1021 further attempted to equivocate "Feticide" with "Fetus Homicide"

EDIT: Now, Jay makes a better argument, since he shows he is basing it on the assumtion that "fetus" is a subset of "Human being". Unfortunately I doubt he will substantiate his assumption since I've yet to see him do so, but the argument is better - if not one I agree with!

 

[calamity]

[SUP][/SUP]

Feticide is a subset of homicide, just like infanticide, fratricide or any of the other terms that specify a little more about the human being killed.

False. Fetal homicide is not universally accepted. Hell, not even all 50 of our states can agree on the matter.

Fetal Homicide State Laws

Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws. The states include: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin. At least 23 states have fetal homicide laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy ("any state of gestation," "conception," "fertilization" or "post-fertilization"); these are indicated below with an asterisk (*).

 

[scatt]

Feticide laws are laws, which I why I cited California (because of the humor) including homicide of a fetus as still homicide, or feticide, if you will.

 

[calamity]

Feticide laws are laws, which I why I cited California (because of the humor) including homicide of a fetus as still homicide, or feticide, if you will.

Correct. Fetal homicide laws are laws.

 

[JayDubya]

[SUP][/SUP]

False. Fetal homicide is not universally accepted. Hell, not even all 50 of our states can agree on the matter.

Fetal Homicide State Laws

The sentence I typed and you quoted has nothing to do with the law.

If I shot and killed my brother in a terrible hunting accident, I would have committed fratricide.


A homicide is the killing of any human. There are other words with the latin root -cide, derived from cadere, to cut or kill.

Some are not about killing humans at all; From small to large, bactericide means the killing of a bacterium; deicide means the killing of a god.

Some are about killing very specific humans - regicide, for example, is killing a king (and of course, no other known species has kings). Infanticide is killing a human infant. Feticide is killing a human fetus.


But any killing of any human, illegal or not, is a homicide. Hence the "Hom," another latin root.

 

[calamity]

The sentence I typed and you quoted has nothing to do with the law.

If I shot and killed my brother in a terrible hunting accident, I would have committed fratricide.

No. You would have had a terrible accident.

 

[JayDubya]

No. You would have had a terrible accident.

An accident in which I killed my brother. By definition, I would have committed fratricide.

Would I be charged with murder? Well no, probably not, or at least I shouldn't be. But that act would be a homicide nonetheless.

 

[calamity]

An accident in which I killed my brother. By definition, I would have committed fratricide.

Would I be charged with murder? Well no, probably not, or at least I shouldn't be. But that act would be a homicide nonetheless.

Maybe I am mistaken on that. I will reread the definitions but it does seem you are correct. Thanks.

 

[JayDubya]

Indeed, this is why we have a whole subclass of homicide called "justifiable homicide."



In the abortion debate, what we are actually arguing about is whether or not abortion belongs in that category or not. Obviously, I say and will continue to say that it is not, that unlike other actions within that category, the act is purposeful, not accidental, and not in self-defense but aggressive.

While my other political views have changed over the years, my abortion stance has not wavered since I was young. I say this because my last "paragraph" up there reminds me of something else from my youth (and others'), courtesy of Jim Henson et al. It goes a little something like "One of these things is not like the others. One of these things does not belong."

 

[alsos]

Indeed, this is why we have a whole subclass of homicide called "justifiable homicide."



In the abortion debate, what we are actually arguing about is whether or not abortion belongs in that category or not. Obviously, I say and will continue to say that it is not, that unlike other actions within that category, the act is purposeful, not accidental, and not in self-defense but aggressive.

I think what gets missed in these discussions is the reality that abortion is going to happen. Things go wrong and people get desperate, which causes them to make irrational decisions. Of course I’d argue that having sex without seriously considering the consequences is irrational; but humans have never shown themselves – as a collective – to keep the ability to behave rationally.

I digress… Abortions are going to happen. Making them illegal is not going to fix that. The only path to fixing the problem is through societal change; not through governments that don’t have the ability to fix these things. This is up to US to fix. You want to stop abortions? Change the way we think. Passing laws that ban it doesn’t change anything but cause people to get even more desperate and go into the back allies with old rusty coat hanger…

But the reality is, I believe we’ve pivoted past that. We’re too deep into this mentality of cheapening life and avoiding personal responsibility. I know I’m painting a broad brush on everyone that has abortions. I’m not trying to do that. I realize there are some –albeit a very few – circumstances that don’t fall along these lines.

We have become a very irresponsible and morally damaged society when we can turn our backs on the millions of abortions performed every year. Every time I see some sort of crazy news story of a kid killing someone or parents driving their kids into lakes or someone going into a school and shooting it up… and people are shocked by it… I’m not. It’s exactly what we’re teaching folks to do; the desensitization of death.

And folks want to deny the sex and violence on TV, movies, and video games doesn’t affect anyone? I watch a report on a new TV show coming out called ‘Friday Night Tykes’. It’s about pee wee football and how the coaches are lashing out at the kids for not trying hard enough and kids crying and blah, blah… One of the first comments I heard was they would never let their kids watch this, it would be a bad influence on them; yet they justify their kids playing violent video games and salacious TV shows and movies – that has no affect. Then those same people get outraged when our kids get pregnant at 13 or go into a school and shoot it up.

The writing is on the wall. And this is a societal problem, not legal.

 

[prometeus]

I think what gets missed in these discussions is the reality that abortion is going to happen. Things go wrong and people get desperate, which causes them to make irrational decisions. Of course I’d argue that having sex without seriously considering the consequences is irrational; but humans have never shown themselves – as a collective – to keep the ability to behave rationally.

I digress… Abortions are going to happen. Making them illegal is not going to fix that. The only path to fixing the problem is through societal change; not through governments that don’t have the ability to fix these things. This is up to US to fix. You want to stop abortions? Change the way we think. Passing laws that ban it doesn’t change anything but cause people to get even more desperate and go into the back allies with old rusty coat hanger…

But the reality is, I believe we’ve pivoted past that. We’re too deep into this mentality of cheapening life and avoiding personal responsibility. I know I’m painting a broad brush on everyone that has abortions. I’m not trying to do that. I realize there are some –albeit a very few – circumstances that don’t fall along these lines.

We have become a very irresponsible and morally damaged society when we can turn our backs on the millions of abortions performed every year. Every time I see some sort of crazy news story of a kid killing someone or parents driving their kids into lakes or someone going into a school and shooting it up… and people are shocked by it… I’m not. It’s exactly what we’re teaching folks to do; the desensitization of death.

And folks want to deny the sex and violence on TV, movies, and video games doesn’t affect anyone? I watch a report on a new TV show coming out called ‘Friday Night Tykes’. It’s about pee wee football and how the coaches are lashing out at the kids for not trying hard enough and kids crying and blah, blah… One of the first comments I heard was they would never let their kids watch this, it would be a bad influence on them; yet they justify their kids playing violent video games and salacious TV shows and movies – that has no affect. Then those same people get outraged when our kids get pregnant at 13 or go into a school and shoot it up.

The writing is on the wall. And this is a societal problem, not legal.

Great post, thank you.

 

[alsos]

Great post, thank you.

I appreciate that.

 

[Lursa]

I think what gets missed in these discussions is the reality that abortion is going to happen. Things go wrong and people get desperate, which causes them to make irrational decisions. Of course I’d argue that having sex without seriously considering the consequences is irrational; but humans have never shown themselves – as a collective – to keep the ability to behave rationally.

I digress… Abortions are going to happen. Making them illegal is not going to fix that. The only path to fixing the problem is through societal change; not through governments that don’t have the ability to fix these things. This is up to US to fix. You want to stop abortions? Change the way we think. Passing laws that ban it doesn’t change anything but cause people to get even more desperate and go into the back allies with old rusty coat hanger…

But the reality is, I believe we’ve pivoted past that. We’re too deep into this mentality of cheapening life and avoiding personal responsibility. I know I’m painting a broad brush on everyone that has abortions. I’m not trying to do that. I realize there are some –albeit a very few – circumstances that don’t fall along these lines.

We have become a very irresponsible and morally damaged society when we can turn our backs on the millions of abortions performed every year. Every time I see some sort of crazy news story of a kid killing someone or parents driving their kids into lakes or someone going into a school and shooting it up… and people are shocked by it… I’m not. It’s exactly what we’re teaching folks to do; the desensitization of death.

And folks want to deny the sex and violence on TV, movies, and video games doesn’t affect anyone? I watch a report on a new TV show coming out called ‘Friday Night Tykes’. It’s about pee wee football and how the coaches are lashing out at the kids for not trying hard enough and kids crying and blah, blah… One of the first comments I heard was they would never let their kids watch this, it would be a bad influence on them; yet they justify their kids playing violent video games and salacious TV shows and movies – that has no affect. Then those same people get outraged when our kids get pregnant at 13 or go into a school and shoot it up.

The writing is on the wall. And this is a societal problem, not legal.

Have you abandoned your arguments on this subject in other threads?

 

[alsos]

Have you abandoned your arguments on this subject in other threads?

Do explain.

 

[JayDubya]

I think what gets missed in these discussions is the reality that abortion is going to happen.

It's not missed. I mean, homicide of born humans still happens - a lot - and that's highly illegal.

Making something illegal doesn't magically prevent it from happening, never will.

While you will see me argue for the legalization of sale and possession of drugs, you will never see me argue that they should be legal because of the failure of the "War on Drugs," they should be legal because it is the right thing to do from a freedom perspective - in fact, this is an area where "freedom of choice" should be the prevailing value, as when drug use affects only yourself, the act is victimless.

What making something illegal DOES do is allow you to at least try to prevent it from happening and perhaps more importantly, punish the ones doing it and protect others from being victims of the perp.

Passing laws that ban it doesn’t change anything but cause people to get even more desperate and go into the back allies with old rusty coat hanger…

Tetanus well-earned.

 

[prometeus]

this is an area where "freedom of choice" should be the prevailing value...

...when drug use affects only yourself, the act is victimless...

...Tetanus well-earned.

Wow, who would have ever imagined, hypocrisy, ignorance and humanitarianism al tied together so nicely. BRAVO Jay...

 

[JayDubya]

Tl;dr

 

[alsos]

It's not missed. I mean, homicide of born humans still happens - a lot - and that's highly illegal.

Making something illegal doesn't magically prevent it from happening, never will.

While you will see me argue for the legalization of sale and possession of drugs, you will never see me argue that they should be legal because of the failure of the "War on Drugs," they should be legal because it is the right thing to do from a freedom perspective - in fact, this is an area where "freedom of choice" should be the prevailing value, as when drug use affects only yourself, the act is victimless.

What making something illegal DOES do is allow you to at least try to prevent it from happening and perhaps more importantly, punish the ones doing it and protect others from being victims of the perp.



Tetanus well-earned.

If you read back, I am not promoting making abortion illegal. I will admit it’s a bit of a dilemma for me considering I do believe abortion is the killing of a human person; and I don’t necessarily view it as a right for the mother to destroy that child that is in her womb; not a right based on the premise ‘she can do with her own body…’ The dilemma for me is making it a legal matter vs. a social matter. Our society has largely accepted that abortion is acceptable, even though the vast majority of people will admit they are not comfortable with it. Unlike drugs where you could use them without harming someone else, I believe abortion is harming someone else. It is not the woman’s body that is being aborted. It is not the woman’s flesh being ripped to pieces thrown in the trash.

All dramatic jargon aside, I am advocating a societal change, not legal. It’s my desire for THE PEOPLE to wake up to the reality of abortion. I think if every person were required to watch an actual abortion occur we’d be taking a completely different stance on this and wouldn’t even need government to intervene and decide this for us. But I am completely in tune with reality and know this will never happen. I’m not content with realizing abortions are going to happen no matter how much I scream about it, but I am content with knowing it has societal consequences and simply saying ‘we reap what we sow’ is good enough for me. And I am content with just letting God and nature runs its course on these things.

 

[JayDubya]

If you read back, I am not promoting making abortion illegal.

I know.

I am.

If I pay someone to shoot you, in my state, my life and the life of that shooter are forfeit when we are caught following that misdeed. In any state, the best I could hope for would be life in prison...

There is no practical or logical difference between that act and the act of.hiring an abortionist. One party paying a second party to kill a third party in cold blooded aggression.

 

[alsos]

I know.

I am.

If I pay someone to shoot you, in my state, my life and the life of that shooter are forfeit when we are caught following that misdeed. In any state, the best I could hope for would be life in prison...

There is no practical or logical difference between that act and the act of.hiring an abortionist. One party paying a second party to kill a third party in cold blooded aggression.

If, and until our society can agree that a fetus is a human life, no different than that of a born human, abortion will remain. Even when provided legal precedence that killing a fetus is murder, pro-abortion folks reject that it’s human. If it’s not human, no one should be charged with murder and these advocates should be screaming about the miscarriage (no pun intended) of justice inflicted on these people.

Those who support abortion will feel you are imposing your will on other by ‘forcing women’ to have babies; even if the result of that baby is irresponsible sex. I simply contend that it’s something as simple as the fact that the baby being aborted doesn’t make a sound when being killed. If a fetus could scream when their flesh is being sliced apart, I bet we wouldn’t be having these debates.

 

[prometeus]

Even when provided legal precedence that killing a fetus is murder

But it is not, it is the "equivalent" of it or treated like it. From the law itself:

"Except as otherwise provided in this paragraph, the punishment for that separate offense is the same as the punishment provided under Federal law for that conduct had that injury or death occurred to the unborn child’s mother."

pro-abortion folks reject that it’s human.

That is not true either, but of course if you could provide evidence to the contrary...

If it’s not human, no one should be charged with murder

But no one is charged with murder. They are charged separately with the punishment being the same as.

Those who support abortion will feel you are imposing your will on other by ‘forcing women’ to have babies

That is the reality of it not a feel.

even if the result of that baby is irresponsible sex.

Yes even so. Forcing is forcing.

I simply contend that it’s something as simple as the fact that the baby being aborted doesn’t make a sound when being killed. If a fetus could scream when their flesh is being sliced apart, I bet we wouldn’t be having these debates.

These is an old Hungarian saying that if one's grandmother had a penis then she would be one's grandfather but alas that is not the case. These is a reason why a fetus does not scram, a good one and that is why abortion is permissible.

 

[Lursa]

Do explain.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/abortion/183520-pope-says-abortion-evidence-throwaway-culture-19.html

You were involved in a similar discussion here....did you abandon it?

 

[GEIxBattleRifle]

1. If, and until our society can agree that a fetus is a human life, no different than that of a born human, abortion will remain.

2. Even when provided legal precedence that killing a fetus is murder, pro-abortion folks reject that it’s human. If it’s not human, no one should be charged with murder and these advocates should be screaming about the miscarriage (no pun intended) of justice inflicted on these people.

3. If a fetus could scream when their flesh is being sliced apart, I bet we wouldn’t be having these debates.

1. There are pro choicers like myself who agree that a unborn human is obviously a human life and there are differences when you look more carefully and look pass the species membership.

2. When debating on a issue like this, it is not best to say ''law x is the law'' as this doesn't apply to others like myself who live in Canada where our laws don't have this inconsistency which was created I believe by Bush when he got reelected in the USA.

3. I bet you we still would. We kill plenty of mere animals on a consistent basis Rat TRap - YouTube