Life at Conception

[Steve Ja]

Witty!

I hope you can provide more actual material to discuss sometime.

I've provided plenty, if you wish to discuss further we can. might even get some clarity on my actual takes on things and not talking just about abortion.. or you can continue your combative ways and think you are somehow winning something

 

[Lursa]

Yes I disrespect women by defending the right to have a chance at life just as you and I do, if that's disrespect, then yes I disrespected women. i didn't minimize anything. where did I once say oh the woman doesn't have to deal with body changes, high blood pressure and the risk of death? I never once said that did I, so since I didnt mention it I automatically don't care about it. Hmmm makes sense

Where did you acknowlege she does? I didnt see it but I didnt read every post either.

However the fact that, with a safe (not 100%) option to terminate a pregancy available, it absolutely DOES disrespect women to not recognize the impacts of those things...including DEATH...to the point where you feel someone ELSE has the right to demand she accept those risks.

Both options have risks. You seem to think strangers or the govt should have the right to tell a women WHICH options...which consequences...to choose. Disrespectful is a polite way of putting it. When do strangers or the govt have the right to demand that you take a risk to your life or long-term health when you dont want to?

 

[Lursa]

I've provided plenty, if you wish to discuss further we can. might even get some clarity on my actual takes on things and not talking just about abortion.. or you can continue your combative ways and think you are somehow winning something

I havent been combative...but denying your disrespect of women by minimizing their risks in pregnancy is dishonest and I will call that out.

 

[Steve Ja]

No, I can think of no reason for you not to post it online.

what was it again you wanted to know about. What social programs would I want in place and how to pay for them for these births? Like a would be abortion birth is any different then any other birth. Is it somehow special? No. And there are already programs in place for these events. You should know this. How to pay for them? Is there any way to actually know how much costs will be incurred through this? I would like some hard data on this. I'm a numbers guy. And added cost wll be paid for by cutting other things. There is plenty of waste in washington

 

[joko104]

I said start a thread, or pm me if you want to know my feelings about a completely different issue

I had. Not asking for "your feelings." I'm asking WHAT IS YOUR PLAN for all the ever increasing numbers of 10s of millions of unwanted babies?

HERE IT IS:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/abortion/155664-costs-if-all-abortions-stopped-7.html

 

[Lursa]

It's well worth pointing out that half of the innocent victims of abortion are girls, who, if allowed to live, would become women. In some places, like China or India, where women are held in less value, it's more than half.

How odd that those who wish these precious girls to die get to accuse those of us who wish them to be allowed to live of being “anti-women”.

LOL...in China, their rural society IS anti-women.

Have you ever read any Pearl S. Buck? Like The Good Earth? Into the 1900's they still called *all women* slaves. That is how they referred to them in speaking vernacular. They were slaves or concubines.

So...they do not as a society value women...what is your point? Their govt had political objectives when designating a 1 child only policy..but THE PEOPLE chose to have boys and kill the girls...and didnt need abortion to do so. They killed them after birth as well.

So....are you comparing American's views of women to that?

 

[Peter King]

I'm sure there are numerous other posts regarding this, but I decided to post mine anyways. I believe life begins at conception and abortion is unacceptable under any circumstances, except when the mothers life is in danger. I consider it murder of an innocent life, that had no say in how it was conceived. The argument about it being the woman's body and it should be her choice makes me giggle often. She gets to make the decision on whether the baby lives or dies? As if it is only her this is affecting. The entire world is affected by abortions. The next cure, the next big discovery etc etc might be killed with that abortion. some make it seem like the ability to bring life into this world is such a burden. I wish I had the capabilities to get pregnant. A wonderful gift that only women were given. But that does not mean they should also have the right to kill off babies before they are born. Nobody should be given that authority, except nature. Nature will determine if the baby is viable or not.

What are your thoughts on this touchy subject

Yes, but with every birth you risk the next creator of a superbug, the next world dictator, the new Adolf Eichmann, the new Stalin, the new Mark Chapman, the new Son of Sam, the next abortion doctor, the next Bin Laden, Mohammed Atta, Saddam, Pol Pot, Timothy McVeigh etc. etc. etc.

With your reasoning why should we risk ever letting someone get born again. The world has been affected by births, both in good and bad ways. And it will be the same with abortions, some might have grown up to do something useful, the other will have been the next Adam Lanza.

And you might find the "it' s a woman's body" amusing but I do not. I think it is a very valid point and as it is human biology that women are the only ones capable of creating a zygote/fetus and if it is allowed to grow a potential child.

As said in another thread, not your body so not your right to decide/your choice.

 

[Steve Ja]

Where did you acknowlege she does? I didnt see it but I didnt read every post either.

However the fact that, with a safe (not 100%) option to terminate a pregancy available, it absolutely DOES disrespect women to not recognize the impacts of those things...including DEATH...to the point where you feel someone ELSE has the right to demand she accept those risks.

Both options have risks. You seem to think strangers or the govt should have the right to tell a women WHICH options...which consequences...to choose. Disrespectful is a polite way of putting it. When do strangers or the govt have the right to demand that you take a risk to your life or long-term health when you dont want to?

Actually happens all the time. I've been deployed, did i want to be? nope. Where there risks to my long term health and life. Yes. I understand I took the risk of deployment when I signed the dotted line. But in a vast majority of pregnancies the woman took the risk by having the sex. Abortion should never be birth control period. am I off my rocker here? I'm not trying to change your views, I know that wont happen, but can you even see mine? I am ot thinking so. I can see yours, even if I disagree. Yes I say murder and baby killing a lot, but it really is about more then the simple act of abortion isn't it?

 

[Steve Ja]

Yes, but with every birth you risk the next creator of a superbug, the next world dictator, the new Adolf Eichmann, the new Stalin, the new Mark Chapman, the new Son of Sam, the next abortion doctor, the next Bin Laden, Mohammed Atta, Saddam, Pol Pot, Timothy McVeigh etc. etc. etc.

With your reasoning why should we risk ever letting someone get born again. The world has been affected by births, both in good and bad ways. And it will be the same with abortions, some might have grown up to do something useful, the other will have been the next Adam Lanza.

And you might find the "it' s a woman's body" amusing but I do not. I think it is a very valid point and as it is human biology that women are the only ones capable of creating a zygote/fetus and if it is allowed to grow a potential child.

As said in another thread, not your body so not your right to decide/your choice.

I've argued my point through out this thread. Not my body right but it's not just her life either. She should not be able to make the decision if the human race lives or dies. If every pregnancy was aborted that's what would happen. Where do you draw the line in your support?

 

[Removable Mind]

I value both the same. I have written about this to support what I say. Difference is the born have a voice, the unborn does not, so they need one to defend them against legalized baby killing aka abortion.
Personally it has not if a stranger does it, but what about someone close to me? Sure will affect me. So just because something does not affect me personally I should just sit by and watch as countless babies get murdered everyday through abortions? there are lots of things that do not affect me personally, cancer is one of them, heart disease etc etc. so should I not care about those issues too? Oh Cancer and heart disease can affect me? So can abortion. Maybe not my body but can affect me personally if someone close to me has one (they have BTW in case you were wondering)

At best...you can call the unborn "potential babies". It's a biological and sociological fact that the the unborn and the born can't be equal.

 

[joko104]

what was it again you wanted to know about. What social programs would I want in place and how to pay for them for these births? Like a would be abortion birth is any different then any other birth. Is it somehow special? No. And there are already programs in place for these events. You should know this. How to pay for them? Is there any way to actually know how much costs will be incurred through this? I would like some hard data on this. I'm a numbers guy. And added cost wll be paid for by cutting other things. There is plenty of waste in washington

Go to the thread on the topic, since that is what you want - a different thread AND one started by me. BINGO! YOUR WISH IS GRANTED!!!!

The NUMBERS are there.

 

[joko104]

I've argued my point through out this thread. Not my body right but it's not just her life either. She should not be able to make the decision if the human race lives or dies. If every pregnancy was aborted that's what would happen. Where do you draw the line in your support?

So your case now comes down to fearing the end of the human race?

http://www.citeste-ne.ro/wp-content/uploads/World-Population-Growth-Chart-300x228.gif


Fenner, who is emeritus professor of microbiology at the Australian National University (ANU) in Canberra, said homo sapiens will not be able to survive the population explosion and “unbridled consumption,” and will become extinct, perhaps within a century, along with many other species. United Nations official figures from last year estimate the human population is 6.8 billion, and is predicted to pass seven billion next year.

Eminent Scientist Claims Humans Will Be Extinct In 100 Years


In nature, out of control population growth results in mass death by disease, starvation and in many species mass genocidal wars.

 

[Steve Ja]

You view it as murder.

Incorrectly as you well know, legally and IMO morally. Society and the US courts recognize this.

*Personally* it makes a great deal of sense to me...and to any woman that chooses to have an abortion. The opposite personal view is also valid....that it is unnecessary killing...and any woman with that view may choose to have that baby.

now you are making sense

 

[Steve Ja]

At best...you can call the unborn "potential babies". It's a biological and sociological fact that the the unborn and the born can't be equal.

And why can't they be equal. I want a logical answer other then because it is not born yet

 

[Steve Ja]

At best...you can call the unborn "potential babies". It's a biological and sociological fact that the the unborn and the born can't be equal.

of course they are potential, we don't actually call them babies until they are born. which is why i say developing a lot developing human beings i say a lot. some will say i say murder and killing a lot too, which I do.

 

[Steve Ja]

Go to the thread on the topic, since that is what you want - a different thread AND one started by me. BINGO! YOUR WISH IS GRANTED!!!!

The NUMBERS are there.

I responded with some numbers of my own

 

[Steve Ja]

So your case now comes down to fearing the end of the human race?

http://www.citeste-ne.ro/wp-content/uploads/World-Population-Growth-Chart-300x228.gif


Fenner, who is emeritus professor of microbiology at the Australian National University (ANU) in Canberra, said homo sapiens will not be able to survive the population explosion and “unbridled consumption,” and will become extinct, perhaps within a century, along with many other species. United Nations official figures from last year estimate the human population is 6.8 billion, and is predicted to pass seven billion next year.

Eminent Scientist Claims Humans Will Be Extinct In 100 Years


In nature, out of control population growth results in mass death by disease, starvation and in many species mass genocidal wars.

No, I was pointing it out. I do not fear the end of humans

 

[year2late]

Ah I'm not religious, so do not buy into all that. egg and sperm come together, wham a baby is started, quite simple. Maybe use the word fertilize then

So is a woman pregnant before the fertilized egg is implanted?

 

[Peter King]

I've argued my point through out this thread. Not my body right but it's not just her life either. She should not be able to make the decision if the human race lives or dies. If every pregnancy was aborted that's what would happen. Where do you draw the line in your support?

But it is not the human race that lives or dies with the decision to end a pregnancy. Not every pregnancy ends in abortion, actually most pregnancies do not end in abortion but in births.

I draw the line at the first stages of the pregnancy (first 6 weeks preferably) or no later then the first trimester ideally but no later than week 16 or so at the latest if it were up to me. But it is not up to me, in the end it is up to the woman who is pregnant.

 

[Steve Ja]

So is a woman pregnant before the fertilized egg is implanted?

well pregnancy is what? The fertilization and development right? So I'd say yes she is pregnant before implanted. however I'm not arguing pregnant not pregnant. I'm arguing human life. And yes it is a human baby after fertilization. Stage of development does not matter to me. It's is developing into a human being and as such should be treated as a human being at every stage. Again my take on it, it causes a lot of riling up and name calling, but it shouldn't.

 

[Steve Ja]

But it is not the human race that lives or dies with the decision to end a pregnancy. Not every pregnancy ends in abortion, actually most pregnancies do not end in abortion but in births.

I draw the line at the first stages of the pregnancy (first 6 weeks preferably) or no later then the first trimester ideally but no later than week 16 or so at the latest if it were up to me. But it is not up to me, in the end it is up to the woman who is pregnant.

so reality you dont have a line

 

[joko104]

I responded with some numbers of my own

No, you didn't. Instead you tried diverting and then threw a tantrum as your excuse not to answer at all.

 

[joko104]

well pregnancy is what? The fertilization and development right? So I'd say yes she is pregnant before implanted. however I'm not arguing pregnant not pregnant. I'm arguing human life. And yes it is a human baby after fertilization. Stage of development does not matter to me. It's is developing into a human being and as such should be treated as a human being at every stage. Again my take on it, it causes a lot of riling up and name calling, but it shouldn't.

:lamo Yeah, calling women murderers isn't name calling.

 

[Peter King]

so reality you dont have a line

I do have a line, but the line is largely in accordance with what the law is.

 

[Juanita]

Great Response. I like to argue that it is an argument at least for me about when life begins, or more precisely human life. That life is a human being at conception, or part of one if you want to break it down further as you have, you even said human cells. Only it's not like an arm or finger, or even skin which will not develop into an actual human being. It is in fact developing into a complete human being and aborting it is preventing a human being form being born and in fact killing a human being. The 12 week and 22 day stuff are things i got from others, I am in no way an expert on the development of babies inside the womb, nor is it really a basis of any argument i have on being against abortion at all stages. I do believe it is in fact a human baby at every step of the way and deserves the right to live just as you and I do. That is my argument. Viable outside the womb is irrelevant as there are human beings living outside the womb that without the help of machines, or heavy drugs would die. A tangent yes, but still an argument.

I look forward to your future responses

Ummmm-- every cell in the human body is a human cell...I personally do not believe that life starts at conception..It is a mesh of cells just like the other cells in your body.. It is not a person. It is not a human being. It is a bloody mesh.. It cannot think, it cannot feel, it is unaware...Your liver is more aware as it has a function--a job to do....I also have spiritual reasons for believing this...At about 5-6 months it can be conceived as a probable human being...