Libertarianism is built on selfishness and greed.

[Fishking]

it's based on the mistaken conclusion that if government is pared down to its bare bones, then you'll get the freedom and wealth just like your employer, the rich, and everyone else with more power than you. in reality, you'll more likely end up as an independent contractor if you're lucky enough to be employed at all, and you still won't be able to smoke pot in your spare time due to limited worker rights and drug screens that you pay for yourself. also, bye bye, SS and Medicare.

Quite the strawman there. I think most Libertarians know there are downsides to the ideology. We get that there is no perfect utopia where all wrongs are righted, unlike many on the left don't get. We simply say that government is generally responsible for all the large-scale atrocities in human history and should be severely limited while maximizing freedom so long as you're not harming others or their property.

 

[Captain Adverse]

No, it is you who have missed the point.
It is being rational to point out that to have the ability to understand the very concept of " as such action does not harm other's or other's property. " one must have the ability to empathise, to be altruistic. Without those abilities your claim of caring is worthless.

Pardon me?

Where in my response did I assert any emotional point?

No, one does not have to have the "ability to empathize, or be altruistic."

There is no altruism when I agree to support your right to present any non-violent form of "free expression," it is self-interest. I am making a rational decision to add my support to protect my rights.

Stop trying to push an emotional ideal onto a rational viewpoint.

 

[soylentgreen]

ah the old us americans are not as educated as foreigners. More bullshit

No just more of the fact that you have a corrupt government that has failed the people. It is understandable why you do not want socialism in your country because that would only line the pockets of corrupt politicians. The failure is not socialism which works quite well when it works for the people. The failure is that america is a failed experiment in republicism.

 

[TurtleDude]

No just more of the fact that you have a corrupt government that has failed the people. It is understandable why you do not want socialism in your country because that would only line the pockets of corrupt politicians. The failure is not socialism which works quite well when it works for the people. The failure is that america is a failed experiment in republicism.

yet people are dying to get into the USA. How about New Zealand?

 

[soylentgreen]

Pardon me?

Where in my response did I assert any emotional point?

No, one does not have to have the "ability to empathize, or be altruistic."

There is no altruism when I agree to support your right to present any non-violent form of "free expression," it is self-interest. I am making a rational decision to add my support to protect my rights.

Stop trying to push an emotional ideal onto a rational viewpoint.

How ridiculous, you just made the assertion of emotion both in your first post and this one.

And you obviously have no idea what a sociopath is if you think no one does not have empathy and altruism.

I find it even more laughable that a right wing libertarian should argue that altruism even exists when during their stage of worshipping the idiot rand they blindly followed her lies that altruism was fake.

 

[soylentgreen]

yet people are dying to get into the USA. How about New Zealand?

Yes you would not believe how many americans are asking to get into nz because we don't have covid unlike your rather pathetic attempt to deal with it.

 

[TurtleDude]

How ridiculous, you just made the assertion of emotion both in your first post and this one.

And you obviously have no idea what a sociopath is if you think no one does not have empathy and altruism.

I find it even more laughable that a right wing libertarian should argue that altruism even exists when during their stage of worshipping the idiot rand they blindly followed her lies that altruism was fake.

can you establish that most RW Libertarians worship "Rand"? You don't even have the stones to list your lean.

 

[TurtleDude]

Yes you would not believe how many americans are asking to get into nz because we don't have covid unlike your rather pathetic attempt to deal with it.

My bullshit detector is redlining. you will get it-sooner or later.

 

[Captain Adverse]

How ridiculous, you just made the assertion of emotion both in your first post and this one.

And you obviously have no idea what a sociopath is if you think no one does not have empathy and altruism.

I find it even more laughable that a right wing libertarian should argue that altruism even exists when during their stage of worshipping the idiot rand they blindly followed her lies that altruism was fake.

There you go, when you really have no argument...your fallback position is "attack the person."

I think you've proven my point...and failed in your own.

Tagline time.

 

[soylentgreen]

can you establish that most RW Libertarians worship "Rand"? You don't even have the stones to list your lean.

How long have you been on debate sites? Because not to many years ago you could tell who was a right wing libertarian by the fact that they would have one of rands book covers for an avatar picture.
And no they would never admit to the fact that theirs was nothing more than sycophantic worship. After all it is not as if the idiot actually had an intelligent argument or a good reason not to hold her or her worshippers in contempt.

 

[calamity]

I have experienced the same thing with many socialists and SJWs I have met. radical chic-mercedes Marxists or blue book bolsheviks.

I doubt you ever met one.

 

[soylentgreen]

My bullshit detector is redlining. you will get it-sooner or later.

No, your laziness to look up any references is what is redlining here.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid...-to-virus-free-nz/MXJXK2EJQOPC37UTYDRPWYJC6I/

Covid 19 coronavirus: Americans visit Immigration NZ website every 30 seconds, tens of thousands consider shift to virus-free NZ

More than 250,000 Americans have investigated whether they qualify to move to New Zealand since the coronavirus pandemic took hold this year.

Hundreds of thousands of foreigners from other countries are also inquiring about living here or applying for residency as the deadly pandemic sweeps the globe.

With international death rates steadily climbing, our Pacific island nation is quickly becoming an attractive haven to live.

Where as, of course who the **** wants to live in a country with such a pathetic and corrupt government as america had with trump that america now has the most deaths from their incompetence in dealing with the pandemic.

 

[MauiMan]

One of the measures of any society is how they care for their indigent population. Does uncontrolled and unregulated capitalism result in a bigger middle class? Ayn Rand does not comment on the vicissitudes of capitalism, and the resultant problems in our society.

 

[iguanaman]

A Libertarian believes in individual freedom to live one's own life as one choses as long as one does not intentionally act to harm other's or the property rights of other's. This allows for willing cooperation with a group as long as such cooperation is not turned into compulsory obligations to sacrifice more than originally contracted.

Thus an individual can be compassionate if one so choses, or selfish if one so choses, as long as one's actions aren't deliberately intended to cause harm to other's or their property.

This idea of "compulsory compassion" you argue is a moral construct used by those who think they have both a right and a duty to compel other's to submit themselves to the group and "share" in the fruits of their labor. Based on the weird idea that simply by existing one may demand to be taken care of by everyone else. That is the foundation of Socialism and it's extreme of Communism, i.e. that the group has the right to compel individuals to work as hard as possible and then "share" the bulk of their production with those less capable or less willing to put in the same effort.

Your fallacious use of both religious and economic demonization of the inherent individual rights to preserve one's own life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness reflects a typical attempt to claim some "moral high ground" as justified in every ideology arguing "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

That is where it goes wrong. Selfishness does harm to society because it breeds greed and that is the enemy of any society. Greed as well as "might makes right" are a main reasons for Govt.

 

[Bullseye]

Those traits are necessary if you want to be able to understand how and why your actions may be harmful to others.

And are are present in varying degrees in most humans, libertarian or not.

 

[soylentgreen]

And are are present in varying degrees in most humans, libertarian or not.

True, I agree. Which is what makes captain adverse's argument so silly. ( refer post #5)

There is no idea of compulsory compassion if in fact you are correct and everyone has altruism and empathy to some degree and use it.

 

[Bullseye]

True, I agree. Which is what makes captain adverse's argument so silly. ( refer post #5)

There is no idea of compulsory compassion if in fact you are correct and everyone has altruism and empathy to some degree and use it.

Ok . . .and?

 

[soylentgreen]

Ok . . .and?

And the captain is wrong. But then that is what is usually said about right wing libertarians.

 

[Bullseye]

And the captain is wrong. But then that is what is usually said about right wing libertarians.

You really don’t know much about libertarians, do you?

 

[MrWonka]

Whats the problem? If you see something needs doing, do something about it. You don't need government for that.

Why should I solve your problems for you?

If I spend my own time and money building a homeless shelter and making sure every homeless person in town can get a basic meal and the health care they need then you don't have to worry about
being bothered by homeless people begging you for money or stealing when they can't get what they need by begging.

You've benefitted from my solution every bit as much as I have. Why shouldn't you be required to chip in?

 

[MauiMan]

You really don’t know much about libertarians, do you?

Nope, he doesn’t. Lot’s of blather.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Fair enough. I did see some very uncaring crap come out of Paul Ryan and company during the great recession however in the face of no work and people suffering. I bet you remember too.

Democrats are better at talking about how much they care about the unfortunate. But are they any more likely than Republicans to make major sacrifices to help people they don't even know?

 

[MrWonka]

supporting government coercion is not caring.

Coercion assumes you don't have a choice to just leave. No one is making you live in this country. If you don't think the policies are fair you're free to find another country that you think would give you a better deal.
It's no different than an HOA. You agree to pay a fee and submit to certain rules if you want to live in the neighborhood. If you decide the HOA fees are too high or you don't like the rules you can find a new neighborhood.

 

[TurtleDude]

Coercion assumes you don't have a choice to just leave. No one is making you live in this country. If you don't think the policies are fair you're free to find another country that you think would give you a better deal.
It's no different than an HOA. You agree to pay a fee and submit to certain rules if you want to live in the neighborhood. If you decide the HOA fees are too high or you don't like the rules you can find a new neighborhood.

that's really stupid.

 

[Felis Leo]

I doubt you ever met one.

One of mine and my father’s dearest friends was a Marxist...a Trotskyist, specifically, who ran a fantastic little used bookstore in my hometown. He was a really great guy. He smoked like a chimney sadly, and passed away from lung cancer. I still miss him.