Leverage (1 Viewer)

[MrWonka]

How much leverage can you have over another person before you are imposing your will on them and giving them no choice?

If I put a gun to your head and make you do a task for me that's obviously illegal, but what if you're starving to death and I offer you a loaf of bread to do the task? You still die if you don't do what I say.

What if you're hanging from a cliff? Can I offer you my hand in exchange for $20?

Does it really matter why you're in that situation in the first place?

Why is blackmail wrong, but other types of bargaining are fine?

Does using certain forms of leverage make you a bad person even if not a criminal?

 

[RJApple]

How much leverage can you have over another person before you are imposing your will on them and giving them no choice?

If I put a gun to your head and make you do a task for me that's obviously illegal, but what if you're starving to death and I offer you a loaf of bread to do the task? You still die if you don't do what I say.

What if you're hanging from a cliff? Can I offer you my hand in exchange for $20?

Does it really matter why you're in that situation in the first place?

Why is blackmail wrong, but other types of bargaining are fine?

Does using certain forms of leverage make you a bad person even if not a criminal?

Regarding the bread for work scenario, that is a basic illustration of how employment works. It is not evil for a business owner to employ a person by paying them in exchange for work, in fact, it is quite admirable. And, yes, if said person doesn't work it is a very real possibility that they would starve. That is how the market works. The cliff scenario is entirely different from the previous, in this situation someone's life is in imminent danger. Refusing to help them would be wrong, assuming that helping them does not put your life at risk. Using leverage in this situation is absolutely wrong. These are two very different situations.

Blackmail isn't a bargain, it is extortion. These are two very different concepts. In a bargain, all parties universally agree to the terms of the agreement. However, in extortion, one party forces the other party to comply through threats and the like.

 

[MrWonka]

Regarding the bread for work scenario, that is a basic illustration of how employment works. It is not evil for a business owner to employ a person by paying them in exchange for work, in fact, it is quite admirable.

Slaves got feed right? Does that make slave owners admirable?

And, yes, if said person doesn't work it is a very real possibility that they would starve.

Why can't they just pick fruits and vegetables that are naturally growing around them?

The cliff scenario is entirely different from the previous, in this situation someone's life is in imminent danger.

So how far off does a person's death have to be before you have to help them?

Blackmail isn't a bargain, it is extortion. These are two very different concepts. In a bargain, all parties universally agree to the terms of the agreement. However, in extortion, one party forces the other party to comply through threats and the like.

Is that only if the threats originates from me? I mean if I agree not to shoot you for $20 and you agree to pay me $20 to not shoot you then it seems like all parties agree to the terms of the deal.

Conversely if you come across me stranded in the middle of the Sahara desert and you agree to give me some water and a ride only if I work as your servant for the next 10 years that to me feels like there's some extortion going on there.

 

[RetiredUSN]

How much leverage can you have over another person before you are imposing your will on them and giving them no choice?

If I put a gun to your head and make you do a task for me that's obviously illegal, but what if you're starving to death and I offer you a loaf of bread to do the task? You still die if you don't do what I say.

What if you're hanging from a cliff? Can I offer you my hand in exchange for $20?

Does it really matter why you're in that situation in the first place?

Why is blackmail wrong, but other types of bargaining are fine?

Does using certain forms of leverage make you a bad person even if not a criminal?

What exactly are you referring to?

 

[MrWonka]

What exactly are you referring to?

It's a general discussion. I'm trying to figure out where exactly is the line where Extortion and price gouging end and just making a business deal begins? How do you define it consistently? Why are some forms of "persuasion" considered off limits?

 

[MrWonka]

Another example:

A few years ago there was a guy from I think Wisconsin who owned a hardware store. After Hurricane Katrina he packed up a whole bunch of electric generators he had that he was trying to sell, and drove them down to Houston. He tried to sell them for twice their market value. FEMA stepped in and confiscated them saying that he was price gouging and taking advantage of a crisis. The guy drove a thousand miles to provide a service that people were in desperate need of, but he was treated as a criminal for trying to make a profit in exchange for his help. If he would have known that was going to happen he probably wouldn't have made that drive and the shortage of generators would have been even worse.

Was he being helpful? Was he being an asshole? Was he a good business man? Was he a shady opportunist?

 

[MrWonka]

Another Example:

During the Flint Water crisis there have been a number of companies(I believe Pepsi being one of them) that have donated clean drinking water to the people of Flint. They gave up the water for free, but realistically the advertising they got from their "good Samaritan" act was likely worth significantly more than the water itself.

Were they being helpful? Were they being a assholes? Were they good business people? Were they shady opportunists?

 

[RJApple]

Slaves got feed right? Does that make slave owners admirable?


Why can't they just pick fruits and vegetables that are naturally growing around them?



So how far off does a person's death have to be before you have to help them?


Is that only if the threats originates from me? I mean if I agree not to shoot you for $20 and you agree to pay me $20 to not shoot you then it seems like all parties agree to the terms of the deal.

Conversely if you come across me stranded in the middle of the Sahara desert and you agree to give me some water and a ride only if I work as your servant for the next 10 years that to me feels like there's some extortion going on there.

A slave is not given a choice to work or not. A person could, feasably, live by foraging, I guess, but that too could be considered a type of work. Extortion is "the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats." (Google definition) The last two situations you described might resonably fit the definition of extortion.

 

[MrWonka]

A slave is not given a choice to work or not. A person could, feasably, live by foraging, I guess, but that too could be considered a type of work.

Don't you generally need land to forage on? How do you get some of that for yourself?

Extortion is "the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats." (Google definition) The last two situations you described might resonably fit the definition of extortion.

Might? So you're saying it's a matter of opinion?

How about Taxation? You're forced to pay them, and if you don't you face the threat of prison. Or are taxes something you voluntarily agree to pay as a member of the society where you choose to reside and make your living? There are Libertarians who would tell you that Taxes are Extortion, unless of course it pays for the specific subset of things they want the government paying for. Namely the defense of their property from poor people who might want to use it to forage for a living rather than be stuck working for them.

 

[RJApple]

Don't you generally need land to forage on? How do you get some of that for yourself?



Might? So you're saying it's a matter of opinion?

How about Taxation? You're forced to pay them, and if you don't you face the threat of prison. Or are taxes something you voluntarily agree to pay as a member of the society where you choose to reside and make your living? There are Libertarians who would tell you that Taxes are Extortion, unless of course it pays for the specific subset of things they want the government paying for. Namely the defense of their property from poor people who might want to use it to forage for a living rather than be stuck working for them.

Taxes are a necessary part of living in civilized society which, generally speaking, are used for the benefit of all. Police departments, fire departments, the military, etc. are all beneficial to society. Dispute arises is when people disagree on exactly what programs to put taxes towards; some would rather have the absolute minimal amount of government interference in their lives, others would prefer more. That, however, is a debate all its own.