Let's hear an argument for Republicans

[The Stars Tremble]

The companies should be allowed to make money for inventing a new drug and bringing it to market. They should not be allowed to charge people who need this drug into poverty. What is needed is some price control, not an end to patents

Maybe we need a government pharma? As someone said in the other thread, pharmas don't so much invent drugs as buy out the small companies which do. From there on it's just testing and marketing (and I suppose sometimes write-offs if a drug fails testing) which a government agency could do just fine.

 

[aociswundumho]

The companies should be allowed to make money for inventing a new drug and bringing it to market.

I agree.

They should not be allowed to charge people who need this drug into poverty. What is needed is some price control, not an end to patents

Price controls cause shortages, and need I point out the hilarity of a left wing "anarchist" who supports government-enforced monopolies?

 

[ataraxia]

Why do you suppose the invisible hand is so weak today?

The invisible hand is not all-powerful, and can sometimes wack people over to her in a very rough way it’s not watched to some extent.

It is not some benevolent deity that always does the best thing for us if we just worship it blindly and unconditionally enough.

 

[Tettsuo]

Because price controls have generally proven to be a disaster wherever they're attempted.

Is that only applicable in the USA or does that appear to happen in other countries as well?

 

[Tettsuo]

I agree.


Price controls cause shortages, and need I point out the hilarity of a left wing "anarchist" who supports government-enforced monopolies?

Is that only applicable in the USA or does that appear to happen in other countries as well?

 

[MamboDervish]

Why do you suppose the invisible hand is so weak today?

Because it's an illusion. It doesn't really exist. There has never been a truly "free market" anywhere, certainly not in a global economy.

The only "invisible hand" is the one that's tipping the scales.

 

[aociswundumho]

Threads like this one are why politics is so entertaining/idiotic.

We have all of these progressives criticizing Adam Smith's metaphor regarding incentives in a free market, and these very same progressives also support the government granting and enforcing drug monopolies for big pharma.

 

[Craig234]

The companies should be allowed to make money for inventing a new drug and bringing it to market. They should not be allowed to charge people who need this drug into poverty. What is needed is some price control, not an end to patents

Do you realize how much the government pays for drug research, that companies then profit from, and how much they use claims that they did the research for propaganda? You raise 'an end to patents', but this is about a corrupt law passed by corrupt Republicans under Bush to ban negotiating Medicare drug prices. Patents are another topic.

 

[Ginger Ale]

And to add insult to injury, the 'centrist' Democrats call Sanders 'extremist', to attack him for things like wanting to remove the corrupt prohibition against price negotiation - before we even get to Republicans. But at least they'll support the bill.

We talk about this with humor in my home because Bernie would be moderate, almost center in most other countries in Europe or Scandinavia.

 

[Ginger Ale]

Threads like this one are why politics is so entertaining/idiotic.

We have all of these progressives criticizing Adam Smith's metaphor regarding incentives in a free market, and these very same progressives also support the government granting and enforcing drug monopolies for big pharma.

And there lies the problem. Capitalism doesn't produce a good quality of life. So now what? It has failed in our healthcare and educations systems. So, what to do, what to do.........

 

[Craig234]

And there lies the problem. Capitalism doesn't produce a good quality of life. So now what? It has failed in our healthcare and educations systems. So, what to do, what to do.........

Funny enough we don't even have the words to talk about the topic, which prevents discussion. I've suggested we use the phrases "plutocratic capitalism" and "democratic capitalism", but since I can't tell the nation's media to use them, they're not used. Everything from Koch broth pollution to mom and pop is "capitalism" while everything from public education to Stalin is "socialism".

 

[Ginger Ale]

Funny enough we don't even have the words to talk about the topic, which prevents discussion. I've suggested we use the phrases "plutocratic capitalism" and "democratic capitalism", but since I can't tell the nation's media to use them, they're not used. Everything from Koch broth pollution to mom and pop is "capitalism" while everything from public education to Stalin is "socialism".

LOL, yes! Spot on!

 

[aociswundumho]

And there lies the problem. Capitalism doesn't produce a good quality of life.

The comedy continues.

Consider your own life, and imagine removing everything you have that was produced by capitalism.

So now what? It has failed in our healthcare and educations systems. So, what to do, what to do.........

lol, maybe healthcare and education just need a little more government intervention?

 

[Jkca1]

Shouldn't the market be the final arbitrator?

 

[NatMorton]

You may be on to something, Nat. When a govt run op is more lent to privatization, it becomes more costly and/or renders less service. When the govt steps in, cost goes down and/or services are provided that weren't before.

I think you're confusing cost and price. They are not the same, and price mandates only affect the latter.

 

[NatMorton]

So drugs the government buys for Medicare or Medicaid patients, can be bargained down by government?

Yes.

Or are you going even further left, and saying those drugs should be taken from company warehouses at whatever price government chooses?

No.

 

[Craig234]

Shouldn't the market be the final arbitrator?

Patents violate 'the market'. Laws violate 'the market'. Unequal capital creates unequal competition and violates a free competitive market. What Bernie is trying to do here is remove the Republicans' ban on 'the market' regarding price negotiation.

 

[NatMorton]

Is that only applicable in the USA or does that appear to happen in other countries as well?

Can't say I've done a study, but I'm comfortable considering that a universal statement.

 

[NatMorton]

Patents violate 'the market'. Laws violate 'the market'. Unequal capital creates unequal competition and violates a free competitive market. What Bernie is trying to do here is remove the Republicans' ban on 'the market' regarding price negotiation.

Yes, yes. It's all a misunderstanding and GOP propaganda. Bernie, you see, is really pro markets.

 

[Threegoofs]

Maybe we need a government pharma? As someone said in the other thread, pharmas don't so much invent drugs as buy out the small companies which do. From there on it's just testing and marketing (and I suppose sometimes write-offs if a drug fails testing) which a government agency could do just fine.

This really isn’t true.

Having lead candidates is important, and over the years, small companies have evolved to take this role over, but development after discovery of a compound is critically important, very hard work, and fairly risky,

 

[Threegoofs]

Should the government be allowed to negotiate drug prices for Medicare patients, as Bernie Sanders' bill and Democrats say, or have to pay full price, as Republicans say?

This is a trade off. The US market props up the entire worldwide pharma industry. Most of the revenue generated from pharma comes from one country- the USA.

Without this market, pharma would be much less profitable, and the innovation we have seen in the industry over the last couple decades would absolutely suffer. Risk taking is inherent in drug development, and when you have less reward, you simply don’t take risks.

You really, really, REALLY want innovation in pharma. It’s literally keeping many of us alive. Look at the mRNA vaccines for a recent example, and look at statins as an old one.

Thirty years after the first statin was out, we now basically have millions of people on this incredibly cheap drug that noticeably has reduced cardiovascular death and complications all over the world. None of that would have happened without the huge investment into clinical trials over the last few decades to expand their use and understand their impact. The dollars for those risky studies came from US spending on the drug and the knowledge that the US would spend even more if we showed the drug works in specific areas of disease.

The pricing in the US is the result of a simply insane system. Insurance companies, PBMs, government run programs all combine to make high prices to the consumer a thing, because no one actually pays full price for any drug out there, except for some unfortunate patients.

The weird ‘coupon’ system that exists, and odd generic pricing and restriction on your pharmacist being able to tell you cash price is lower than an insurance copay are all symptoms of the mess.

Removing patent protection would be a potential disaster, Allowing Medicare negotiation would reduce revenue to the companies. That’s fine, but realize the consequences. The cost of that is innovation. And if we’ve seen anything over the last 20 years, it’s that the current system is ridiculously innovative.

 

[Liberal7360]

Should the government be allowed to negotiate drug prices for Medicare patients, as Bernie Sanders' bill and Democrats say, or have to pay full price, as Republicans say?

GOP Blocks Sanders Effort to Force Vote on Slashing Drug Prices | Common Dreams

"How many people need to die, how many people need to get unnecessarily sicker, before Congress is prepared to take on the greed of the prescription drug industry?" asked Sen. Bernie Sanders.

www.commondreams.org

The government used to negotiate prices until the bush boy and republicans made it illegal.

The minute the law went into effect the price of drugs skyrocketed.

The government still negotiates prices for drugs with the VA but not medicare. Which causes higher drug prices for everyone.

Of course the republicans aren't going to support returning back to the government negotiating lower drug prices.

 

[Liberal7360]

Well new drugs are invented other places besides the US. Other than comparing price, however, it's extremely complicated to tell whether these are as valuable from a health perspective.

You want to hear the Republican side though? Even drugs developed in Europe have the lucrative US market to sell into. US consumers are subsidizing drug development for everyone.

Our tax dollars pays for a large portion of the cost to develop drugs.

It's through block grants.

So we pay for the development of the drugs then we pay the highest prices to actually use the drugs we paid the cost to develop.

We can all thank Reagan for deregulating it all in the 80s.

Then we can thank the bush boy for making it illegal for the government to negotiate lower prices to use those drugs we paid to create.

It's all a huge rip off.

 

[Liberal7360]

Because price controls have generally proven to be a disaster wherever they're attempted.

Really?

The government negotiated the price of drugs with drug companies for decades before the bush boy and republicans made it illegal in 2005 with their so called "drug benefit" for medicare.

The government still negotiates prices for drugs for the VA.

Where is the disaster at the VA? Where was the disaster with medicare?

Your post just isn't true which is why you didn't put up any proof of your claim.

 

[Liberal7360]

I agree.


Price controls cause shortages, and need I point out the hilarity of a left wing "anarchist" who supports government-enforced monopolies?

What you posted didn't happen and isn't still happening.

The government negotiated lower drug prices for medicare for decades until the bush boy and republicans made it illegal in 2005.

The government still negotiates lower drug prices for the VA.

There has not been any shortages of medications in that time.

What you posted is a very old and tired untruth.

Those of us who were around before the bush boy and republicans made negotiating lower drug prices for medicare illegal, knows that what you posted didn't happen in those decades with medicare and isn't happening now with the VA.

It's also not happening in the nations that do negotiate drug prices.

Intelligent people are getting so tired of the lies.