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Legally Abortion Laws are flawed because they are one sided in terms of Reproductive Rights.

I dont understand your statements.

But now that you've admitted it's not a sexist issue, are you going with 'classist?' "Elitist?"

I've shown that it's a sexist issue. It's also a class issue. But, in this case, I'm just pointing out the inconsistency of your stance. You believe that non-custodial parents should reimburse taxpayers for any services provided to their children. Why does that not apply to anyone else who gets services? Why should poor people not pay back food stamps once they get a job? Why should sick people not pay back Medicaid once they get better? Why are you OK with taxpayers footing the bill for that?
 
You left out where all that $$ to enable a safer and more secure life for the child will come from. Where?

You know, the $$ that helps increase their chances of a more stable environment and having a lower risk of dropping out of school, staying out of juvenile hall or prison, etc and thus having a higher potential for contributing to society.

Can you show the cost of that? Who decides how much is necessary to foster the "contributing to society?" These are not measurable standards. Why should anyone be forced, under penalty of law, to contribute to meet these wishy-washy standards?

Can you at least address the points I laid out? You don't believe any of those are reasonable or fair reforms?
 
In a utopian world, men and women would only have sex in loving, committed relationships and all children would be raised by loving, respectful, responsible parents.

But that's not the world we live in. So:

{snipped, and moved to reply}

If the state is truly interested in the well-being of children, it should be helping fathers provide meaningful support, not impeding them, jailing them, and trapping them in a lifetime of state servitude.

1. Men should be able to choose to withdraw support for a child before it is born. A simple, legal opt-out. "I do not consent to being a parent."

They have that ability. It's called not coming into someone you don't know or trust.

2. Back child support should be able to be forgiven by a judge based on demonstrated circumstance.

Ok... Why, and under what circumstance? Unless the answer is "the child was free that year", I can't think of a good reason, other than severe illness, or other inability to work.

3. Child support should be based on the demonstrated needs of the child and the cost of living of the child's environment, not on the relative earning power of the parents and should not be easily changed unless need can be demonstrated -- no more dragging people back into court over and over.

For that to work, you need a utopian scenario where fathers don't become dead beat dads. And of course earning power would dictate - the cost of living of the child's environment should match the environment the child would have if the father was in the picture. Aka, the child shouldn't suffer because the father is a selfish asshole that wants nothing to do with them, and didn't have the good sense to ensure his nut butter didn't turn into a kid that requires stuff.

4. No one should ever go to jail for inability to pay child support.

I'm not aware that they do. Inability to pay and failure to pay are not the same thing. I could be wrong, I'm not as familiar with this part of the laws in America, so would be open to being corrected.

5. Child support payments should go to the support of the child -- not to state agents, not to prop up bureaucracies, and not to serve as punishment for male sexuality.

Totally agree - again, open to being corrected, but I was not aware this was the case in the present state. Administrative fees for ensuring father's live up to their obligations should be paid for by general taxes.

6. Voluntary payments (for example, buying dance lessons for a daughter or buying shoes or school clothing out of pocket) should count toward fulfilling legal child support obligations. Non-custodial parents should be empowered to make financial decisions for the well-being of their children instead of being rendered wage slaves to the custodials.

Why would you ever give non-custodial parents empowerment to make financial decisions for the well-being of their children? If they don't want custody, why would they want to make financial decisions, other than to limit their own expense? How is this good for the child? If anything, don't make the voluntary payments, and ensure that the support payments include things like a reasonable involvement in extra-curricular activities, and school clothes - if you consider school clothes a "voluntary payment" that would be outside the normal inclusions for support payments anyway.

I would have a different opinion on this if the father had joint custody, of course. But you don't get to wash your hands of the raising, but keep your hands in the till.

And finally, if every single father was truly interested in providing meaningful support, the courts would never have had to get involved in the first place. I'm a father, and the courts haven't had to get involved with me supporting my kid once.

One last time: to avoid all this, all you gotta do is keep it in your pants. How about teaching our boys that, instead of how to shirk their responsibilities?
 
Sex does not constitute the waiving of individual rights. Period. Your arguments are sexist and authoritarian.

And your arguments are ridiculous, immature, and selfish. Negligence creates liability in any number of scenarios. Why you think it shouldn't here is still a mystery.
 
I've shown that it's a sexist issue. It's also a class issue. But, in this case, I'm just pointing out the inconsistency of your stance. You believe that non-custodial parents should reimburse taxpayers for any services provided to their children. Why does that not apply to anyone else who gets services? Why should poor people not pay back food stamps once they get a job? Why should sick people not pay back Medicaid once they get better? Why are you OK with taxpayers footing the bill for that?

No, your sexist argument as failed. Shall I repost it? You left it behind in post 384.

And I'm not discussing overall welfare here. I'm discussing the direct results of an adult's actions that produced a kid that they are responsible for supporting.

I'm not going to discuss why old people are or arent entitled to medicaid, etc. You seem to only be able to continue the discussion by broadening...and generalizing. Sorry.

Your original claims were that enforced child support is sexist...and now you've been shown it's not.
 
And your arguments are ridiculous, immature, and selfish. Negligence creates liability in any number of scenarios. Why you think it shouldn't here is still a mystery.

If women do not want a child they can abstain fromsex. It works both ways
 
They have that ability. It's called not coming into someone you don't know or trust.

Unless their birth control fails or he's a sperm donor or he unknowingly has been raising another man's child -- all cases that have resulted in child support obligations.

Ok ... Why, and under what circumstance? Unless the answer is "the child was free that year", I can't think of a good reason, other than severe illness, or other inability to work.

Based on the discretion of the judge. Judges don't currently have that power. Back child support is often paid years after the children in question are adults. The money is going to the state, not to the needs of children.

For that to work, you need a utopian scenario where fathers don't become dead beat dads. And of course earning power would dictate - the cost of living of the child's environment should match the environment the child would have if the father was in the picture. Aka, the child shouldn't suffer because the father is a selfish asshole that wants nothing to do with them, and didn't have the good sense to ensure his nut butter didn't turn into a kid that requires stuff.

This is just sexist shaming. "Deadbeat dads" is a **** term with little meaning in the real world. People are individuals with individual circumstances and should be treated as such, not lumped into a group of undesirables to justify shoddy treatment by the state.

I'm not aware that they do. Inability to pay and failure to pay are not the same thing. I could be wrong, I'm not as familiar with this part of the laws in America, so would be open to being corrected.

Read the articles I linked.

Totally agree - again, open to being corrected, but I was not aware this was the case in the present state. Administrative fees for ensuring father's live up to their obligations should be paid for by general taxes.

Read about the cases where support obligations continue long after the children are grown. They're not that uncommon.

Why would you ever give non-custodial parents empowerment to make financial decisions for the well-being of their children? If they don't want custody, why would they want to make financial decisions, other than to limit their own expense? How is this good for the child? If anything, don't make the voluntary payments, and ensure that the support payments include things like a reasonable involvement in extra-curricular activities, and school clothes - if you consider school clothes a "voluntary payment" that would be outside the normal inclusions for support payments anyway.
Why should parents be cut off from financial decisions concerning the well-being of their children? It's not me that considers the payments voluntary. It's the court. Currently, you can't offset support obligations by providing actual support. Buying clothes and other necessities is just a "voluntary" addition and doesn't count toward the obligation to the state.

I would have a different opinion on this if the father had joint custody, of course. But you don't get to wash your hands of the raising, but keep your hands in the till.

That's not what I'm arguing for. If a father opts-out, then he's not a father. No rights to the children. If he agrees to be a parent, then he takes on all the associated rights and responsibilities. Joint custody should be the default, anyway.

And finally, if every single father was truly interested in providing meaningful support, the courts would never have had to get involved in the first place. I'm a father, and the courts haven't had to get involved with me supporting my kid once.

One last time: to avoid all this, all you gotta do is keep it in your pants. How about teaching our boys that, instead of how to shirk their responsibilities?

BS. The existence of laws is not proof of the poor character of all those subject to them. Also: More sexist shaming.
 
No, your sexist argument as failed. Shall I repost it? You left it behind in post 384.

And I'm not discussing overall welfare here. I'm discussing the direct results of an adult's actions that produced a kid that they are responsible for supporting.

I'm not going to discuss why old people are or arent entitled to medicaid, etc. You seem to only be able to continue the discussion by broadening...and generalizing. Sorry.

Your original claims were that enforced child support is sexist...and now you've been shown it's not.

I didn't say child support is sexist. I said it's a violation of individual rights, which it is. What I've correctly pointed out is that the attitudes propping up this injustice are sexist in nature.

Edit: Also, if you didn't want to discuss the role of taxpayers, why do you keep insisting that taxpayers' interests should be weighed in these matters?
 
And your arguments are ridiculous, immature, and selfish. Negligence creates liability in any number of scenarios. Why you think it shouldn't here is still a mystery.

Edit: No they're not. They just make you uncomfortable because they challenge your assumptions but you can't defeat them.

Consensual sex is not negligence. We left Puritanism behind a long time ago.
 
I will start out by saying any silly comments about "When a man carries a fetus for 9 months..." will be ignored because this thread does not ignore that fact, it's just that it is irrelevant to the discussion.

Neither is this about men having any say in what a woman chooses to do in terms of a pregnancy. Posts claiming otherwise will also be summarily ignored as such comments are patently dishonest.

Now that the groundwork is laid, and yes, some might remember a similar thread from many a moon ago, but here it is again.

1. Abortion gives a woman the right to decide her future should an unwanted pregnancy occur. SCOTUS has decided they have that right.
This will not be contested or debated again.

2. Much of this is "Right to her body" and "Reproductive Rights", and it is the latter that is the focus here as in the long term, that is where the incongruity and unfairness in the law resides.

Let's say, Tom and Jane have a consensual sexual relationship, be it a steady relationship or a one night fling.

Whatever or lack of, birth control used fails to prevent a pregnancy. These are the basic outcomes (barring injury, illness, miscarriage or the like)

A: Jane chooses to carry to term and keep her child.
B: Jane carries to term, but gives the child up for adoption/to the father
C: Jane aborts her child

That's all understood, but what about Tom?

Tom has no say in the matter, if he wants his child, and she aborts... so sad to bad.
If he doesn't want the child, he's just starting med school and cannot afford to pay for it, so sad, to bad, he's going to be paying child support for the next 18 years of his life at minimum.

In both cases, his reproductive rights are denied. In the initial instance, she chooses to abort, that's her body, her choice.
But why, if she chooses to carry to term, does Tom lack the legal grounds to not "abort" his rights and obligations?

After all, a common reason for abortion is "Not ready to care for or support a child". Why is Tom denied that right? What legal, moral or rational reason is there to deny Tom his reproductive rights and self determination of his future?

I open the floor to discussion.

Contrary to your opening statement, reproductive rights are exclusively female since the female (a biological one) is the person who carries the fetus in her body. Ergo, all abortion decisions are legally hers to make and hers a lone. /thread
 
Can you show the cost of that? Who decides how much is necessary to foster the "contributing to society?" These are not measurable standards. Why should anyone be forced, under penalty of law, to contribute to meet these wishy-washy standards?

Can you at least address the points I laid out? You don't believe any of those are reasonable or fair reforms?

Nope, not addressing them. Nobody likes paying taxes...the real point here is that you want to make something *you believe is fair* by making it *more unfair* for taxpayers...when the responsible parties are available *and capable* to pay for their own choices. Tough if it makes life harder...a kid makes life harder too. Paying more taxes makes life harder too.

None of your examples addresses this ^^ specifically.

And here you go:
Children in single-parent households are burdened not only with profound economic disadvantages, but are also far likelier to eventually get into trouble with the law. As a Heritage Foundation analysis notes, youngsters raised by single parents, as compared to those who grow up in intact married homes, are much more likely to be physically abused; to be treated for emotional and behavioral disorders; to smoke, drink, and use drugs; to behave aggressively and violently; to engage in criminal activity; and to be arrested for a juvenile crime. According to the National Fatherhood Initiative, 60% of rapists, 72% of adolescent murderers, and 70% of long-term prison inmates are men who grew up in fatherless homes.*

Poverty and Crime - Discover the Networks

Praise for Our Work
*ELLIOT INSTITUTE OUR MISSION & MINISTRY OUR MISSION & MINISTRY S COMPASSIONATE OUTREACH PRO-WOMAN /*PRO-LIFE
*
Post-Abortion Research, Education and Advocacy*Pro-life*and pro-family leaders applaud our research, our education and outreach initiatives, and*our efforts to end abortion*with compassion by building on the pivotal truth that the welfare of a mother and her unborn child are inseparable.
*
From: CDC - About Teen Pregnancy - Teen Pregnancy - Reproductive Health
*
"In 2008, teen pregnancy and childbirth accounted for nearly $11 billion per year in costs to U.S. taxpayers for increased health care and foster care, increased incarceration rates among children of teen parents, and lost tax revenue because of lower educational attainment and income among teen mothers."
*
"Pregnancy and birth are significant contributors to high school drop out rates among girls. Only about 50% of teen mothers receive a high school diploma by 22 years of age, versus approximately 90% of women who had not given birth during adolescence."
*
"The children of teenage mothers are more likely to have lower school achievement and drop out of high school, have more health problems, be incarcerated at some time during adolescence, give birth as a teenager, and face unemployment as a young adult."

Poverty affects a child's development and educational outcomes beginning in the earliest years of life, both directly and indirectly through mediated, moderated, and transactional processes. School readiness, or the child's ability to use and profit from school, has been recognized as playing a unique role in escape from poverty in the United States and increasingly in developing countries.

https://nyaspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1196/annals.1425.023

And there are plenty more links that show how lack of stability, from stress (parent and child) and lower income, affect child development:

https://research.cornell.edu/news-features/damaging-effects-poverty-children

https://www.princeton.edu/futureofchildren/publications/docs/07_02_03.pdf

Enduring Damage: The Effects of Childhood Poverty on Adult Health ? Chicago Policy Review
 
Contrary to your opening statement, reproductive rights are exclusively female since the female (a biological one) is the person who carries the fetus in her body. Ergo, all abortion decisions are legally hers to make and hers a lone. /thread

And it's a non-custodial parents' labor -- their bodies, their time, and their treasure -- that are being given to other against their will. Ergo, all support decisions should be the supporters' to make.
 
Edit: No they're not. They just make you uncomfortable because they challenge your assumptions but you can't defeat them.

Consensual sex is not negligence. We left Puritanism behind a long time ago.

lmao...oh, buddy, you do love to assume the sale, don't you.

No, consensual sex is not negligence. But being negligent while having casual sex is.

Let's try your "logic" in a few different directions.

"Uh, officer, I know I just shot and killed that guy, but I was only trying to scare him and missed, so I shouldn't be charged".

"Uh, officer, I know I was doing 80 in a 60, but my cruise control was set to 60, so clearly that was my intention, it's not my fault I didn't put the brakes on going down this hill"

"Uh, IRS guy, I know I didn't claim any of my tips as a waiter, but I didn't ask for them, so I shouldn't have to claim them".

Yes, this is just as stupid as those.
 
I didn't say child support is sexist. I said it's a violation of individual rights, which it is. What I've correctly pointed out is that the attitudes propping up this injustice are sexist in nature.

Edit: Also, if you didn't want to discuss the role of taxpayers, why do you keep insisting that taxpayers' interests should be weighed in these matters?

Ah, dont lie. You have continually accused people in this thread that the position of paying child support is a sexist one, even when it was pointed out that the law is equal once a child is born. If we use biological facts to defend the choices leading up to the need to apply that law, that is not sexist.

Unless biology is sexist?

And I have been clear about the taxpayer issue being framed around *your claims of unfairness, injust* And in that context, since the parties directly responsible for producing that kid are available, it's not remote fair or just to ask taxpayers to pay MORE for something we didnt produce.

It's very succinct and specific.
 
And it's a non-custodial parents' labor -- their bodies, their time, and their treasure -- that are being given to other against their will. Ergo, all support decisions should be the supporters' to make.

I probably agree that men should not be on the hook for a child they do not want. There should be a way to "opt out" for men who want nothing to do with their offspring. But, that should then be binding. Opt out and you are erased from the record forever, with no rights to later claim the child or have any decisions affecting it.
 
Nope, not addressing them. Nobody likes paying taxes...the real point here is that you want to make something *you believe is fair* by making it *more unfair* for taxpayers...when the responsible parties are available *and capable* to pay for their own choices. Tough if it makes life harder...a kid makes life harder too. Paying more taxes makes life harder too.

None of your examples addresses this ^^ specifically.

And here you go:






And there are plenty more links that show how lack of stability, from stress (parent and child) and lower income, affect child development:

https://research.cornell.edu/news-features/damaging-effects-poverty-children

https://www.princeton.edu/futureofchildren/publications/docs/07_02_03.pdf

Enduring Damage: The Effects of Childhood Poverty on Adult Health ? Chicago Policy Review

So you're saying it's irresponsible for a woman to choose to bring a child into this world without the loving support of a willing father? I agree. The question is: Should the law enforce it? I say no.

But I will note that child support payments do not count as income to the recipient, so those poverty stats are skewed by not accurately reflecting the circumstances of supported children. A child might be receiving hundreds of dollars a month in support but still be impoverished on paper. A child who's needs are met is not suffering.

It also seems your argument would be addressed by empowering non-custodials to be more involved in the day-to-day lives of their children. I agree.
 
I probably agree that men should not be on the hook for a child they do not want. There should be a way to "opt out" for men who want nothing to do with their offspring. But, that should then be binding. Opt out and you are erased from the record forever, with no rights to later claim the child or have any decisions affecting it.

Yes. An early and permanent decision
 
Its not a red herring: The fundamental arguments supporting women's reproductive rights can also be applied to men's reproductive rights but are being denied. That's not a red herring, it's a valid comparison within the same policy arena.

Using the premise I described, what would a law look like if men could opt out of financial responsibilities for an unwanted pregnancy?

But remember, women’s right to abort “is a legal option”. Most pregnancies are brought to full term. Most pro-choice women won’t have an abortion, but realize the various reasons that abortions may be necessary, and including the right to abort on demand within the parameters of the law.

The reason most pro-choice women won’t have an abortion unless there are life threatening issues - is because they have the right to exercise “moral choice”. A moral choice could well be associated with their First Amendment Rights.

So again, please describe what your “Men’s right to opt out of financial responsibilities for an unwanted pregnancy law” would look like.
 
If women do not want a child they can abstain fromsex. It works both ways

So, if a woman does have sex she has no right to expect equal responsibility for the results of that sex from her partner? Good deal for the dude!

I don't think that if a woman has sex and gets pregnant in the current state that she gets off scot free, without any accountability. I'm not suggesting something happen to the man that doesn't to the woman...I mean, by biological necessity something happens to the woman that doesn't happen to the man, so it's already off balance, but in terms of responsibility of any resulting children I feel like both parents should be on the hook...so, yes, it most definitely works both ways...if not exactly the way you intended it.
 
So you're saying it's irresponsible for a woman to choose to bring a child into this world without the loving support of a willing father? I agree. The question is: Should the law enforce it? I say no.

Not all women believe in abortion. Oh well.

If a man doesnt like the law...he doesnt have to have sex with a woman that wont have an abortion. If he doesnt trust her word...that's also his choice.
 
Ah, dont lie. You have continually accused people in this thread that the position of paying child support is a sexist one, even when it was pointed out that the law is equal once a child is born. If we use biological facts to defend the choices leading up to the need to apply that law, that is not sexist.

Unless biology is sexist?

And I have been clear about the taxpayer issue being framed around *your claims of unfairness, injust* And in that context, since the parties directly responsible for producing that kid are available, it's not remote fair or just to ask taxpayers to pay MORE for something we didnt produce.

It's very succinct and specific.

That same argument can be made for reimbursing Medicaid and food stamps -- like I noted above and you rejected as off-topic.

And biology IS sexist in you framing. Men, biologically, can "pump and dump." Biology is not the determining factor in the law, as I've repeatedly pointed out.

I've already made the distinction between sexist attitudes and the uneven application of laws in practice. This is a complex issue, but I've attempted to make my points honestly. I'll clarify if necessary. Child support laws are not sexist on paper, but they are in practice, and the attitudes used to justify them almost certainly are.
 
So, if a woman does have sex she has no right to expect equal responsibility for the results of that sex from her partner? Good deal for the dude!

I don't think that if a woman has sex and gets pregnant in the current state that she gets off scot free, without any accountability. I'm not suggesting something happen to the man that doesn't to the woman...I mean, by biological necessity something happens to the woman that doesn't happen to the man, so it's already off balance, but in terms of responsibility of any resulting children I feel like both parents should be on the hook...so, yes, it most definitely works both ways...if not exactly the way you intended it.

Equal responsibility means the man and the women can opt out of parenthood after conception. You want unequal responsibility
 
Not all women believe in abortion. Oh well.

If a man doesnt like the law...he doesnt have to have sex with a woman that wont have an abortion. If he doesnt trust her word...that's also his choice.

And there's the fundamental disconnect in your argument: Her body. Her choice. His responsibility. The uncoupling of rights and responsibilities is the most basic form of injustice.
 
Using the premise I described, what would a law look like if men could opt out of financial responsibilities for an unwanted pregnancy?

But remember, women’s right to abort “is a legal option”. Most pregnancies are brought to full term. Most pro-choice women won’t have an abortion, but realize the various reasons that abortions may be necessary, and including the right to abort on demand within the parameters of the law.

The reason most pro-choice women won’t have an abortion unless there are life threatening issues - is because they have the right to exercise “moral choice”. A moral choice could well be associated with their First Amendment Rights.

So again, please describe what your “Men’s right to opt out of financial responsibilities for an unwanted pregnancy law” would look like.

Here's what I posted earlier:

1. Men should be able to choose to withdraw support for a child before it is born. A simple, legal opt-out. "I do not consent to being a parent." The woman can legally demand he pay for half the abortion, if she so chooses. Failure to disclose fatherhood within the abortion window is automatic non-consent unless the father later chooses to opt-in and then is afforded full legal parental rights and responsibilities based on that commitment.

2. Back child support should be able to be forgiven by a judge based on demonstrated circumstance.

3. Child support should be based on the demonstrated needs of the child and the cost of living of the child's environment, not on the relative earning power of the parents and should not be easily changed unless need can be demonstrated -- no more dragging people back into court over and over.

4. No one should ever go to jail for inability to pay child support.

5. Child support payments should go to the support of the child -- not to state agents, not to prop up bureaucracies, and not to serve as punishment for male sexuality.

6. Voluntary payments (for example, buying dance lessons for a daughter or buying shoes or school clothing out of pocket) should count toward fulfilling legal child support obligations. Non-custodial parents should be empowered to make financial decisions for the well-being of their children instead of being rendered wage slaves to the custodials.

If the state is truly interested in the well-being of children, it should be helping fathers provide meaningful support, not impeding them, jailing them, and trapping them in a lifetime of state servitude.

That's my basic outline for a fair and ethical system that still addresses the needs of children. it's just a skeleton framework. I'm open to changing my mind.
 
And there's the fundamental disconnect in your argument: Her body. Her choice. His responsibility. The uncoupling of rights and responsibilities is the most basic form of injustice.

Annnnnddd we're back to biology again and the fact that you have zero way to make that 'just' legally. (see: taxpayer discussion)

Still beating the old 'sexist' drum when we've already covered that if it was 'his body, his choice, her responsibility' the law and my personal stance would be exactly the same.

Please dont get circular. If you're done, just be done.
 
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