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LAPD kills man and daughter

FiremanRyan

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http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-071105toddler_lat,0,426545.story?coll=la-home-headlines

what do you guys think about this? basically, a man took his daughter hostage and on multiple occasions left his house, using the 19 month old as a human shield, and opened fire on SWAT in the middle of a neighborhood. one officer was hit but survived. the officers exchanged fire and hit the girl.

while its hard to deal with a tradgedy like this, i dont think we can blame the LAPD for the death of the girl, only her father, who was the one controlling the situation. procedure was followed correctly and i know killing the girl wasnt intentional. a lot of people are saying that it shouldnt have happened but they arent coming up with alternative plans of action that could have been taken. its hard to criticize police officers when you dont do their job day in and day out.
 

ShamMol

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I remember reading this exact article and let me say that LAPD really doesn't get the credit it deserves. I remember being on the street late at night and seeing at least 10 cops out walking in a gang infested area trying to keep it safe. That takes balls (or ovaries in the case of a lot of them) and they really have my respect.

That being said, I would like to know what their plans are for situations like this are. And as a result of this accident, are they going to change? I don't think it was intentional, and I sure hope it wasn't, and I hope that they don't charge those SWAT officers. What should be noted is this from the article.

LAtimes.com said:
Lopez was only the second hostage to die during 4,000 SWAT operations by the LAPD in 38 years.

"We tried to do the best we could," Bratton said.

"This is only the second time in all those years when a hostage was killed," Bratton said. "The first time was back in the 1970s, and the hostage was killed by the hostage taker."
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by FiremanRyan:
what do you guys think about this? basically, a man took his daughter hostage and on multiple occasions left his house, using the 19 month old as a human shield, and opened fire on SWAT in the middle of a neighborhood. one officer was hit but survived. the officers exchanged fire and hit the girl.

while its hard to deal with a tradgedy like this, i dont think we can blame the LAPD for the death of the girl, only her father, who was the one controlling the situation. procedure was followed correctly and i know killing the girl wasnt intentional. a lot of people are saying that it shouldnt have happened but they arent coming up with alternative plans of action that could have been taken. its hard to criticize police officers when you dont do their job day in and day out.
Is it their job to shoot at an un-armed man 104 times? Is it their job to beat a guy senseless with their clubs while 11 of their buddies stand around and watch? Is it their job to call in false police reports to their duty sargent? Although I will agree in your example that is was the fathers fault.
 

ShamMol

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You are thinking of LAPD, this was SWAT. They are the best in the world at what they do and this was just an unavoidable tragedy.

LAPD is adressing those problems finally, like I have been hoping htey would for years. They do unfairly target minorities, and I for one hope that is about to change because the new leadership is very receptive to the idea...ironically, the old leadership failed to see it as a problem.
 

FiremanRyan

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ShamMol said:
You are thinking of LAPD, this was SWAT. They are the best in the world at what they do and this was just an unavoidable tragedy.

LAPD is adressing those problems finally, like I have been hoping htey would for years. They do unfairly target minorities, and I for one hope that is about to change because the new leadership is very receptive to the idea...ironically, the old leadership failed to see it as a problem.

true, there is a difference and i forgot to mention that. LAPD has had some problems in the past but they have always been far outweighed by the good that they do. these officers work in an extremely hostile environment though, and bad things happen.
 

cnredd

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I'm reading the story saying to myself, "I guess some people like Billo Really will attack the police for this..."

And then he posts....

Is it their job to shoot at an un-armed man 104 times? Is it their job to beat a guy senseless with their clubs while 11 of their buddies stand around and watch? Is it their job to call in false police reports to their duty sargent?

A spiteful, inept child will never change his spots...
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by FiremanRyan:
true, there is a difference and i forgot to mention that. LAPD has had some problems in the past but they have always been far outweighed by the good that they do. these officers work in an extremely hostile environment though, and bad things happen.
I would have to agree.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally quoted by cnredd:
I'm reading the story saying to myself, "I guess some people like Billo Really will attack the police for this..."

And then he posts....

Is it their job to shoot at an un-armed man 104 times? Is it their job to beat a guy senseless with their clubs while 11 of their buddies stand around and watch? Is it their job to call in false police reports to their duty sargent?

A spiteful, inept child will never change his spots...
Just answer the god-damn question.
 

Lilith

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FiremanRyan said:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-071105toddler_lat,0,426545.story?coll=la-home-headlineswhile its hard to deal with a tradgedy like this, i dont think we can blame the LAPD for the death of the girl, only her father, who was the one controlling the situation.
Phew! By the title of the thread I thought maybe you'd put a bit o' :spin: on it! I agree with your synopsis.
By a Friend O' Mine- They had been in negotiation with him on and off for 3 hours. In those conversations with him, he repeated several times that he would not be taken alive. The SWAT guys were told that if they had the shot, to take it. When he came out the last time, with the kid as a shield, a sniper did have the shot and he took it. Unfortunately, that shot wasn't fatal. He spun around and continued to shoot. One officer down and a very near miss on a civilian. Once the officer was hit and the civilian woman was in the line of fire, they shot again to take him out. This is an absolute tragedy in the worst sense, but I don't think anyone can fault the LAPD in this one.
 

ShamMol

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FiremanRyan said:
true, there is a difference and i forgot to mention that. LAPD has had some problems in the past but they have always been far outweighed by the good that they do. these officers work in an extremely hostile environment though, and bad things happen.
Exactly, I fault them for some stuff they have done, but when you look at what they go through, day in and day out, it is some serious *****. I think though, change has finally come in the way of Bratton. Crimes are generally down, and with a reduced cop force no less. The city has to pony up some more money for the crime to be reduced significantly and pressure the cheif to institute some more reforms to make the LAPD completely right.

I know by my old school, there was always a police presence...it was playboy and crip area. My school had some bullet holes in the exterior, luckily though no violence ever came on campus. I suspect the latter is true because of the police presence there.
 

vandree

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So they knew he would use the little girl as a shield;
They knew he wouldn't be taken alive;
He has nowhere to go, so what was the hurry? Why not wait it out?

Why was there a civilian in the line of fire? Usually the police officers go around the neighboorhood in these circumstances and tell everyone to stay inside
 

cnredd

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vandree said:
So they knew he would use the little girl as a shield;
They knew he wouldn't be taken alive;
He has nowhere to go, so what was the hurry? Why not wait it out?
Why was there a civilian in the line of fire? Usually the police officers go around the neighboorhood in these circumstances and tell everyone to stay inside
Because the hostage-taker, who has already admitted his death-wish, might "take people with him"...maybe that gun in his hand has something to do with it...I don't know...

go over this point again....A sniper had an open shot....That open-shot window can, literally, last less than a second...The hostage taker might sneeze; the girl he was holding might slip, making his head drop 3 inches...

In the time the sniper pulls the trigger, a multitude of scenarios may happen, and if he doesn't pull the trigger right then and there, who's to say the hostage-taker doesn't say "the hell with it" fifteen seconds later and starts opening fire on everyone around, still using the the girl as a shield. During during THESE shots fired, no one has a "clean shot" at him, and more people end up dead.

Then you would have said, "How come the sniper didn't hit him when he had a clean shot?"

Your asking the Force to create an infallible situation...I don't think anyone on Earth has that capability.
 

ElGringo17

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As one who has graduated from a police academy with honors, let me tell you that many cops are ticking time bombs and there is a pervasive attitude that once the departmental guidelines for use of force are met, that it mandates that violence as opposed to constantly apprising the situation and using discretion.

LAPD like most police agencies is rife with crooks and LAPD mentality is to allow it. That is LAPD culture, and it casts a bad light on the other decent cops who are in the majority. Their criminal dispostions are not what police recruits are taught in the academy, it is learned on the job.

Leave it to LAPD to kill a baby by shooting her in the head in order to protect her. Reminds me of Lon Horiuchi, the FBI assassin who executed Vicky Weaver at Ruby Ridge in Idaho by exploding her brain with a high powered .308 rifle round to her head while she was holding nothing but her baby in her arms.
 
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akyron

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Billo_Really said:
Is it their job to shoot at an un-armed man 104 times? Is it their job to beat a guy senseless with their clubs while 11 of their buddies stand around and watch? Is it their job to call in false police reports to their duty sargent? Although I will agree in your example that is was the fathers fault.

When did the special weapons and tactics have anything to do with any of this? Your rant on button has a hair trigger and is misfiring again.
 
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