Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

Winston Smith · Jul 25, 2010

texmaster said:
Go ahead. Show us where we are wrong.

Show us all the religous freedom that Muslim dominated countries dish out.

Then explain how America deserved 9.11

I'll wait.

Muslim countries have a mix of freedom and discrimination. What you need to understand is that the discrimination isn't just against non-Muslims. It's also against Muslims who believe the Koran but don't interpret it a certain way. See this article for example:

It finds that members of all religions in Iraq are “victims of harassment, intimidation, kidnapping, and killings” and that “frequent sectarian violence included attacks on places of worship.”

Muslims who practice less-strict versions of their faith suffer because “conservative and extremist Islamic elements exert tremendous pressure on society to conform to their interpretations of Islam’s precepts,” the report says.

Afghanistan: “Decades of war, years of Taliban rule, and weak democratic institutions, including a developing judiciary, have contributed to intolerance manifested in acts of harassment and violence against reform-minded Muslims and religious minorities,” it says.

Saudi Arabia: “While overall government policies continue to place severe restrictions on religious freedom, there were some improvements in specific areas during the period covered by this report,” it says, noting nascent moves that “could lead to important improvements in the future.” Still, it says “non-Muslims and Muslims who do not adhere to the government’s interpretation of Islam continued to face significant political, economic, legal, social, and religious discrimination.”

There are different interpretations of Islam, and as I said before, Muslims who don't interpret it the way you and Bin Laden do have suffered greatly from terrorist attacks in their own countries. Those are our potential allies, but they won't be allies if we demonize them and ignorantly smear them together with Al Qaeda and the like.

No one has said the US deserved 9/11. We did invite it, however, with our military presence in the Middle East, our lopsided support of Israel, and our decimation of Iraq's civilian population. Bin Laden has stated this pretty clearly. Of course, he knew our reaction in the short term would be more of the same. He cynically escalated the conflict in the hope of uniting Muslims against a common enemy and reviving his unpopular, failing ideology. Unfortunately, there were plenty of extremists in our own government who were more than happy to give him his "war of civilizations." Osama couldn't have hoped for better allies than Dick Cheney and company.

Agent Ferris · Jul 25, 2010

Laila said:
Kuwait,

Homosexuality:

LGBT rights in Kuwait - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Adultery:

KuwaitPoint - Kuwaiti woman, Syrian jailed for adultery | Kuwait Crime

Apostasy:

Once found out, Husein Ali Qambar who by now had taken the name of Robert Husein Ali, stood up to the storm of reactions around him. Instead of hiding, he willingly met with the press, wearing a small silver cross around his neck, and to the question about why he had decided to become Christian, he candidly answered 'I have found God elsewhere'.

Following the practice established by tradition, according to which the community must try to win back the apostate before punishing him/her, a group of learned men met several times with Qambar for the purpose of reconverting him. By January 1996, when it became clear that he would not give in to this amicable approach and recant his decision, popular anger began rising against Qambar. In the National Assembly an islamist deputy called for legal actions to be taken against the convert. Not long after, an islamist lawyer sued Qambar for apostasy. To the court, the plaintiff said that he hoped the lawsuit would make the accused 'regret and reverse his decision or else be officially declared an apostate and bear the consequences'. Meanwhile, the home of the convert was vandalized, he was entirely barred from seeing his children, and when his father passed away, he was forbidden from receiving his share of the inheritance. Gradually, the number of people suing Qambar for apostasy grew. At the same time, he found no lawyers willing to defend him. In May 1996 the judge in the shi'a lower court issued a ruling that officially declared Qambar an apostate and recommended that the death penalty be pronounced against him. Qambar appealed against the apostasy ruling. His appeal was to be reviewed in September 1996. One month before that date, the authorities issued Qambar a passport and he left Kuwait for the USA. What happened in the following months, I don't know because my fieldwork for that year had come to an end and I had to leave for Norway. But when I returned to Kuwait for a brief visit in November 1997, I learnt that Qambar had reconverted to Islam and was now back in the country.

The apostasy law

UAE,

Adultery:

British woman arrested in UAE on suspicion of adultery - Telegraph

Homosexuality:

LGBT rights in United Arab Emirates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Blasphemy:

Blasphemy law in the United Arab Emirates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bahrain,

LGBT rights in Bahrain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Turkey,

Correct. But then again they explicitly exclude religious parties from participating in the government, though the current administration has a decidedly Islamist bent and Turkey is currently moving in the wrong direction.

Jordan

Apostasy:

WORLD Magazine | Apostasy rules | Mindy Belz | Apr 09, 05

Blasphemy:

Blasphemy law in Jordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

.... they are some Muslim countries which allow freedoms.

They are more liberal than most of the Islamic world I'll grant you that.

Agent Ferris · Jul 25, 2010

Laila said:
I don't even know why some people just don't admit they hate Muslims. I'd have more respect for you Tex, Ric, Ferris if you just admitted it and we can stop pretending

I already admitted that I hate Islam and anyone who does not hate oppression should is the enemy of liberty.

Agent Ferris · Jul 25, 2010

Winston Smith said:
Actually, you and Ferris are the ones who have consistently been toeing the Al Qaeda line. Your interpretation of the Koran with regard to religious freedom in Muslim societies is pretty close to Bin Laden's ideal. Fortunately, most Muslims don't agree with you.

No sir I have not been "towing the AQ line" I have been stating quite clearly that the Ulama of all 5 mainstream schools of Islamic Fiqh have ruled through Ijma that corporal and/or capital punishment is the penalty for apostasy, sodomy, adultery, and/or premarital sex. That is not the radical fringe view, that is the only accepted view in mainstream Islam, the radical fringe views are the liberal ones.

I never even once quoted the Koran. :roll:

Winston Smith · Jul 25, 2010

Sodomy, adultery, and premarital sex have all been criminalized in the US to various extents. It's been less than ten years since the sodomy laws were held to be unconstitutional. Adultery is still a criminal offense carrying a potential life sentence in some states. If you go back far enough, you'll find that the American colonies imposed the death penalty for witchcraft and blasphemy. All these laws were enacted by people who read the same Bible we read. They just interpreted it differently.

ric27 · Jul 25, 2010

Laila said:
Every Muslim believes the Qu'ran is the word of God and Prophet Mohammed is one of his messengers.

Save me from the stupid :roll:

Do you respect fundamentalism of any faith?

ric27 · Jul 25, 2010

Laila said:
Al Qaeda would love you.
Your image of Islam is exactly what they wish every Muslim followed.

Not every muslim is a fundamentalist. But every muslim is a potential fundamentalist. You may wind up like that

If all 1.2billion of us had it in for US there is no army big enough to stop us
It's a good thing the majority of us Muslims are not hate filled bigots eh.

Go back and polish up on that....

We have achieved a level of technological and military superiority such that no Islamic army can face a modern western army on the open battlefield and hope to survive. So, you people have turned to un-conventional warfare to balance the odds, because we are against (for some ***** **** up reason) to the use of force that eliminates your civilian shield.

Your Muslim brothers and sisters are advancing geographically in a different way. Muslims are taking advantage of the west's openness and principles of human freedom to immigrate, populate, and eventually, dominate with Sharia Law

Thats YOUR ultimate plan, lady

Jetboogieman · Jul 25, 2010

ric27 said:
Your Muslim brothers and sisters are advancing geographically in a different way. Muslims are taking advantage of the west's openness and principles of human freedom to immigrate, populate, and eventually, dominate with Sharia Law

Thats YOUR ultimate plan, lady

How fricking paranoid are you?

(thats rhetorical)

DrunkenAsparagus · Jul 25, 2010

Agent Ferris said:
Ya this Mosque is a clear fist, they have every right to build it, but ask yourself one thing, why are they having the ground breaking ceremony on 9-11 of all days? Give me a ****ing break, these people need to be protested day in and day out until they decide to build their little temple to oppression somewhere the **** else.

To remember the attack? They say their goal is reconciliation between non-Muslims and Muslims. This relationship was badly damaged by that attack, and the groundbreaking ceremony is trying to address that.

ric27 · Jul 25, 2010

Jetboogieman said:
How fricking paranoid are you?

(thats rhetorical)

Not at all....A large part of the Muslim pop just want to live their lives and raise their families like most people do, but they will do what their mullahs and imams tell them to do and religious loyalty trumps Western concepts of freedom and democracy. Most of them may not support terrorism, but they won't do anything to fight it.

DrunkenAsparagus · Jul 25, 2010

texmaster said:
Go ahead. Show us where we are wrong.

Show us all the religous freedom that Muslim dominated countries dish out.

Wait, so the actions of autocratic, corrupt governments reflect on a religion of 1.2 billion? Well by this standard I guess this makes all Latinos Fascists, Chinese totalitarians, and Blacks blood-thristy warlords.

texmaster said:
Then explain how America deserved 9.11

I'll wait.

Nobody here or the Cordoba Institute said that America deserved 9-11. They said that our foreign policy pissed fundamentalists off. There is a difference between explanation and justification.

texmaster · Jul 25, 2010

Winston Smith said:
Muslim countries have a mix of freedom and discrimination. What you need to understand is that the discrimination isn't just against non-Muslims. It's also against Muslims who believe the Koran but don't interpret it a certain way. See this article for example:

How does that excuse the severe lack of religious freedom in Muslim dominated countries? It doesn't.

And the differences between Sunni and Shia Muslims have NOTHING to do with Islam's stance on non believers, women or religious text that bare any point to the discussion here:

Shia Muslims believe that the Imam is sinless by nature, and that his authority is infallible as it comes directly from God. Therefore, Shia Muslims often venerate the Imams as saints and perform pilgrimages to their tombs and shrines in the hopes of divine intercession.

Sunni Muslims counter that there is no basis in Islam for a hereditary privileged class of spiritual leaders, and certainly no basis for the veneration or intercession of saints. Sunni Muslims contend that leadership of the community is not a birthright, but a trust that is earned and which may be given or taken away by the people themselves.

What's the Difference Between Shia and Sunni Muslims?

There are different interpretations of Islam, and as I said before, Muslims who don't interpret it the way you and Bin Laden do have suffered greatly from terrorist attacks in their own countries. Those are our potential allies, but they won't be allies if we demonize them and ignorantly smear them together with Al Qaeda and the like.

Yet not a single Muslim country has a majority of people in ANY poll where Bin Laden is considered evil.

There goes your theory.

No one has said the US deserved 9/11. We did invite it, however, with our military presence in the Middle East, our lopsided support of Israel, and our decimation of Iraq's civilian population. Bin Laden has stated this pretty clearly.
Of course, he knew our reaction in the short term would be more of the same. He cynically escalated the conflict in the hope of uniting Muslims against a common enemy and reviving his unpopular, failing ideology. Unfortunately, there were plenty of extremists in our own government who were more than happy to give him his "war of civilizations." Osama couldn't have hoped for better allies than Dick Cheney and company.

And you being the Bin Laden supporter ignore the fact that we pulled out of Saudi Arabia before the Afgan invasion and he still attacked nor were we in Iraq. Your excuses for Bin Laden's claims for justification are truely pathetic.

How about we read what Bin Laden told his followers about the real reason he attacked us.

In 2003 on the first day of the Muslim holy celebration of Eid al-Adha, the Feat of Sacrifice, he began a sermon:

"Praise be to Allah who revealed the verse of the Sword to his Servant and messenger in order to establish truth and abolish falsehood."

What does the verse of the Sword say?

Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)."

Bin Laden's supporters like you who soak up his lies about his justification for attacking can always find an excuse to continue the murder of Americans.

You give Bin Laden his power. Terrorist supporters like you who justify attacks on Americans by believing what the terrorists claim in speeches to the West while ignoring the speeches they give to their own people which reveals the true justification for attacking the West.

DrunkenAsparagus · Jul 25, 2010

texmaster said:
How does that excuse the severe lack of religious freedom in Muslim dominated countries? It doesn't.

And the differences between Sunni and Shia Muslims have NOTHING to do with Islam's stance on non believers, women or religious text that bare any point to the discussion here:

Shia Muslims believe that the Imam is sinless by nature, and that his authority is infallible as it comes directly from God. Therefore, Shia Muslims often venerate the Imams as saints and perform pilgrimages to their tombs and shrines in the hopes of divine intercession.

Sunni Muslims counter that there is no basis in Islam for a hereditary privileged class of spiritual leaders, and certainly no basis for the veneration or intercession of saints. Sunni Muslims contend that leadership of the community is not a birthright, but a trust that is earned and which may be given or taken away by the people themselves.

What's the Difference Between Shia and Sunni Muslims?

Yet not a single Muslim country has a majority of people in ANY poll where Bin Laden is considered evil.

There goes your theory.

And you being the Bin Laden supporter ignore the fact that we pulled out of Saudi Arabia before the Afgan invasion and he still attacked nor were we in Iraq. Your excuses for Bin Laden's claims for justification are truely pathetic.

How about we read what Bin Laden told his followers about the real reason he attacked us.

In 2003 on the first day of the Muslim holy celebration of Eid al-Adha, the Feat of Sacrifice, he began a sermon:

"Praise be to Allah who revealed the verse of the Sword to his Servant and messenger in order to establish truth and abolish falsehood."

What does the verse of the Sword say?

Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)."

Bin Laden's supporters like you who soak up his lies about his justification for attacking can always find an excuse to continue the murder of Americans.

You give Bin Laden his power. Terrorist supporters like you who justify attacks on Americans by believing what the terrorists claim in speeches to the West while ignoring the speeches they give to their own people which reveals the true justification for attacking the West.

What does any of this to do with the Cordoba Institute?

texmaster · Jul 25, 2010

DrunkenAsparagus said:
Wait, so the actions of autocratic, corrupt governments reflect on a religion of 1.2 billion? Well by this standard I guess this makes all Latinos Fascists, Chinese totalitarians, and Blacks blood-thristy warlords.

This is what happens when you jump into an argument already in progress and don't research the argument. The claim was that Muslim dominated countries support religious freedom. I proved that laughably inaccurate.

Try to keep up.

Nobody here or the Cordoba Institute said that America deserved 9-11. They said that our foreign policy pissed fundamentalists off. There is a difference between explanation and justification.

No. Thats justification not explanation and it ignores what Bin Laden has told his own people the real reason.

Tell me, if being in Saudi Arabia was the reason as Bin Laden first claimed, why did he keep attacking before the Afgan war and after we pulled out?

Its simple. Those were never the reasons. Terrorists will always find justification and the true enemy are the people in the west who justify the attacks by accepting the explanations for the attacks by the terrorists themselves in speeches to the West.

texmaster · Jul 25, 2010

DrunkenAsparagus said:
What does any of this to do with the Cordoba Institute?

For the love of God would you please research the arguments you are jumping into before making false assumptions as to what we are arguing?

texmaster · Jul 25, 2010

Laila said:
Al Qaeda would love you.

LOL I'm sure they love you more.

Your image of Islam is exactly what they wish every Muslim followed.

My image is based on what the book says. You should actually try reading it.

If all 1.2billion of us had it in for US there is no army big enough to stop us
It's a good thing the majority of us Muslims are not hate filled bigots eh.

Still the same bull**** line I see. You once again ignore the fact that I never said all Muslims are fundamentalists. If they were, you bet we would have a far larger problem. the lack of reform however and the lack of speaking out against the fundamentalists does show the literal interpretation of the book is alive and well as you proved in your own words pages ago.

TacticalEvilDan · Jul 25, 2010

ric27 said:
I tell ya what... I, being the magnanimous person I am....We let them build it then claim eminent domain. We demolish, the **** outta it and, we build a museum of fine arts in its place

I think its a good plan

ric27 said:
You and others attacked me because my ideas were "unconstitutional". Now, eminent domain which is clearly legal (Fifth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution) is being discussed and you're, the one thats foaming out of the mouth...lol

Now, who is the hypocrite?

How, exactly, is standing by and watching someone build something on their property, then using eminent domain to take that property away and destroy the completed construction in any way a Constitutional use of eminent domain? Why didn't you claim it before they built their mosque?

For that matter, how can you seriously argue that New York city needs not only another museum, but another museum right on that spot?

TacticalEvilDan · Jul 25, 2010

ric27 said:
This is why I have such an issue with the Muslim faith and the way our media, politicians and seemingly, most people are portraying it. The fundamentalist, "kill the infidel" types are called radical, islamo-fascists and we say they are not true Muslims. The moderates we want to deal with are the true Muslims. No!!! Sorry, wrong ****ing answer. The radicals are the ones who are TRUE to their faith and that is why we will NEVER have peace with Islam. We will be at war with any Muslim who TRULY believes that the Koran is the word from Allah and Mohammed is his prophet.

Thanks for proving my point with your blind fear of Islam. :lol:

TacticalEvilDan · Jul 25, 2010

ric27 said:
Not every muslim is a fundamentalist. But every muslim is a potential fundamentalist. You may wind up like that

Not every human is a mass-murderer. But every human is a potential mass-murderer. You may wind up like that

ric27 said:
We have achieved a level of technological and military superiority such that no Islamic army can face a modern western army on the open battlefield and hope to survive. So, you people have turned to un-conventional warfare to balance the odds, because we are against (for some ***** **** up reason) to the use of force that eliminates your civilian shield.

You people? Are you seriously lumping Laila in with militants?

That said, I think similar complaints could've been lodge by the Brits against the way our forefathers fought the Revolution -- we refused to line up in nice neat rows before them on the field of battle. Instead we snuck about and sniped and ambushed.

That the militants aren't engaging us as we expect to be engaged isn't a sign of cowardice, it's a sign of intelligence. Read The Art of War, their tactics read like a study of that book.

ric27 said:
Your Muslim brothers and sisters are advancing geographically in a different way. Muslims are taking advantage of the west's openness and principles of human freedom to immigrate, populate, and eventually, dominate with Sharia Law

Thats YOUR ultimate plan, lady

Could you, please, make a decision about what group you're lumping Laila in with?

You can't seem to decide if she's a sneaky ninja militant Muslim or if she's a sneaky ninja Sharia law Muslim. :lol:

DrunkenAsparagus · Jul 25, 2010

texmaster said:
This is what happens when you jump into an argument already in progress and don't research the argument. The claim was that Muslim dominated countries support religious freedom. I proved that laughably inaccurate.

Try to keep up.

I read through the posts. My assertion is that what Muslim governments do is irrelevant to whether or not Islam is a mostly peaceful religion or not.

texmaster said:
No. Thats justification not explanation and it ignores what Bin Laden has told his own people the real reason.

How is explaining that Al Qaeda saw our foreign policy as imperialist, pissing them off, justification? We're not saying that America was doing what Bin Laden said we were doing. It's explaining his point of view. I can't imagine that putting our troops in the Arabian peninsula and our relationship with Israel, justified or not, made us the best of friends with Bin Laden.

texmaster said:
Tell me, if being in Saudi Arabia was the reason as Bin Laden first claimed, why did he keep attacking before the Afgan war and after we pulled out?

Our culture, which Bin LAden saw as in conflict with his own, but there's a another reason. I'll give you a hint; it starts with an "I".

texmaster said:
Its simple. Those were never the reasons. Terrorists will always find justification and the true enemy are the people in the west who justify the attacks by accepting the explanations for the attacks by the terrorists themselves in speeches to the West.

No one is justifying the attacks!! Since when is explanation justification? This is like saying that all forensic psychiatrists serial killers now.

DrunkenAsparagus · Jul 25, 2010

texmaster said:
For the love of God would you please research the arguments you are jumping into before making false assumptions as to what we are arguing?

For the love of God, will you stop making generalizations about Muslims?

ric27 · Jul 25, 2010

Winston Smith said:
No one has said the US deserved 9/11. We did invite it, however, with our military presence in the Middle East, our lopsided support of Israel, and our decimation of Iraq's civilian population.

"our lopsided support of Israel"...

Even if Israel was given to them, they would find another reason to justify attacking the US. We could give them everything they have ever asked for, and they would still find a reason to fight.

Because until the world is Muslim and one of them is the Caliph, they won't rest.

Thats the bottom line

TacticalEvilDan · Jul 25, 2010

Kind of reminds me of the cold war... :lol:

ric27 · Jul 25, 2010

DrunkenAsparagus said:
For the love of God, will you stop making generalizations about Muslims?

At it's very roots, it's essential being, Islam is violently intolerant and incompatible with everyone who is not Muslim

ric27 · Jul 25, 2010

TacticalEvilDan said:
How, exactly, is standing by and watching someone build something on their property, then using eminent domain to take that property away and destroy the completed construction in any way a Constitutional use of eminent domain? Why didn't you claim it before they built their mosque?

For that matter, how can you seriously argue that New York city needs not only another museum, but another museum right on that spot?

The Muslims are simply exploiting an available weakness. I can't fault them for that strategy. We do the same to our enemies. We try to determine their weaknesses and exploit them to our advantage. That's simply war and life in general.

another museum right on that spot?

What about a bacon sammich joint?

Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

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