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Kyle Rittenhouse, 17, charged with murder after two killed during Wisconsin protests

During the nights that were broadcast by the independent media there was a lot of shots fired into the air. This could easily have been some random person with no knowledge of what was even taking place between Rittenhouse and Rosenbaum.

As Tlrmln has posted, the videos show the first shooter in the parking lot when Rosenbaum et al were chasing the kid. So it seems unlikely that the shot was random.
 
that picture seems to show him firing before that and again after he lunged...if he shot him for trying to disarm him, that is murder.

Well, that's not what the witness for the prosecution has testified to.

McGinnis stated he did not hear them exchange any words. McGinnis said that the unarmed guy (Rosenbaum) was trying to get the
defendant's gun. McGinnis demonstrated by extending both of his hands in a quick grabbing
motion and did that as a visual on how Rosenbaum tried to reach for the defendant's gun.
Detective Cepress indicates that he asked McGinnis ~ Rosenbaum had his hands on the gun when
the defendant shot. McGinnis said that he definitely made a motion that he was trying to grab the
barrel of the gun. McGinnis stated that the defendant pulled It away and then raised It. McGinnis
stated that right as they came together, the defendant fired. McGinnis said that when Rosenbaum
was shot, he had leaned in (towards the defendant).
 
Well, that's not what the witness for the prosecution has testified to.

McGinnis stated he did not hear them exchange any words. McGinnis said that the unarmed guy (Rosenbaum) was trying to get the
defendant's gun. McGinnis demonstrated by extending both of his hands in a quick grabbing
motion and did that as a visual on how Rosenbaum tried to reach for the defendant's gun.
Detective Cepress indicates that he asked McGinnis ~ Rosenbaum had his hands on the gun when
the defendant shot. McGinnis said that he definitely made a motion that he was trying to grab the
barrel of the gun. McGinnis stated that the defendant pulled It away and then raised It. McGinnis
stated that right as they came together, the defendant fired. McGinnis said that when Rosenbaum
was shot, he had leaned in (towards the defendant).

he didn't hear because he likely wasn't close enough to hear an exchange. Remember it was McGinnis that had interviewed him earlier, but didn't bother to report that a child was toting an AR15 around.
 
The picture in the NYT does not support your claim..in fact, the still picture shown also on this thread..shows he was quite a long ways away and seems like Kyle might have been pointing the weapon.

I don't know what picture you're looking at (feel free to post a link), but the one I'm referring to ties the first shot to a person walking right in front of the lot where the shooting happened, and that person was convincingly demonstrated to likely be one of the guys as the gas station confrontation who had a pistol in his hand whole time.
 
If you have a better theory than the NYT, I'm all ears.



The NYT did a detailed analysis of the videos pretty well pinpointing where the first shot came from. Others have taken that a step further to identify who was likely to have fired the first shot.

Tracking Kyle Rittenhouse in the Fatal Kenosha Shootings - The New York Times

If you can't access NYT, this video includes some of that content around the 19 minute mark.
Kyle Rittenhouse Shooting: New Videos, Map, Audio Visual Analysis by Criminal Defense Lawyer - YouTube

NBC has a second by second video of the incident. The first shots fired in the auto dealership parking lot sure sound like rifle shots to me.

 
when did he call 911? When did he drive to the police department?

As far as the mob was aware, he was running to the.cops, yet attacked anyway

As for my opinion, he was going to the cops, but they told him to move. . If someone is running to the cops, I'm not attacking them. Thats just me, though. At most, I might follow to ensure the cops are aware and to be a witness if needed.

I belive I heard he contacted the Cops that night from home. He was officially arrested the next am. I am not 100 percent on that, but that is what i have heard in some news report.
 
As far as the mob was aware, he was running to the.cops, yet attacked anyway

As for my opinion, he was going to the cops, but they told him to move. . If someone is running to the cops, I'm not attacking them. Thats just me, though. At most, I might follow to ensure the cops are aware and to be a witness if needed.

I belive I heard he contacted the Cops that night from home. He was officially arrested the next am. I am not 100 percent on that, but that is what i have heard in some news report.

they knew he had shot someone....didn't matter where he was running...they had a right to stop a murderer.
 
that picture seems to show him firing before that and again after he lunged...if he shot him for trying to disarm him, that is murder.
You just make it up as you go along huh?
 
Let's consider the concept of Citizen's arrest. Wisconsin law is not silent on the matter, although there is no statute on it - e.g., State v. Slawek, 338 NW 2d 120 - Wis: Court of Appeals (1983), citing Keenan v. State, 8 Wis. 132 (1858) ("Any private person may prevent the commission of a felony, upon the same ground that an officer may prevent it.").

So for the sake of brevity, my understanding of your post is that Wisconsin case law suggests that that a citizen's arrest in the prevention of a probable commission of a felony is lawful, as is a citizen's arrest for a misdemeanor if a breach of the peace requires it for public safety against acts that threaten or incite violence.

After skimming your cases I found notations that in certain situations, in particular when a citizen witnesses a criminal activity by a person (e.g. that person robbing a house) he may make an arrest. I found nothing to suggest that a citizen has either immunity from his/her making mistakes, or that just a "probable cause" (or in this case "speculative cause"...such as hearing gunfire from somewhere) is sufficient. Nor have I noted a duty of an innocent citizen to allow such an arrest, or a surrender of his/her rights of self-defense from a mob chasing him/her.

To be specific: this is not a question over the lawful or unlawful intent of those chasing him, or over if they had "probable cause". Whether Rosenbaum was just intending to use deadly force, or just yell is irrelevant. Whether Grosskreutz or other assailants were attempting murder or just a citizen’s arrest is irrelevant to the lawfulness in use of defensive force. Intentions don't matter.

And on that what Wisconsin use-of-force law requires in the context of self-defense is pretty clear.

Wisconsin §939.48. explains self-defense and defense of others, and it privileges the use of defensive force against an actual threat of harm, but also the use of defensive force against what the defender “reasonably believes” to be a threat of imminent serious bodily harm or death to him/herself.

Look to Wisconsin jury instructions on this point, Wisconsin Jury Instruction Criminal (WJIC) 805. Privilege: Self-Defense: Force Intended or Likely to Cause Death or Great Bodily harm. It addresses §939.48, but also adds: "A belief may be reasonable even though mistaken."

Therefore, it does not matter if those shot were actually engaged in unlawful acts of imminent deadly force aggression, but rather whether Rittenhouse’s perception of them as being engaged in unlawful acts of imminent deadly force aggression was a reasonable perception.... which, obviously, it was.
 
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NBC has a second by second video of the incident. The first shots fired in the auto dealership parking lot sure sound like rifle shots to me.



sounds like 9 shots from an AR15. To clarify for those who don't know what an AR15 sounds like when it is shot...

How to Shoot an AR-15 / M4 Carbine - YouTube

This is closer up, but you can clearly hear that this is the same calibur as being fired in that video.
 
So for the sake of brevity, my understanding of your post is that Wisconsin case law suggests that that a citizen's arrest in the prevention of a probable commission of a felony is lawful, as is a citizen's arrest for a misdemeanor if a breach of the peace requires it for public safety against acts that threaten or incite violence.

After skimming your cases I found notations that in certain situations, in particular when a citizen witnesses a criminal activity (e.g. robbing a house) he may make an arrest. I found nothing to suggest that a citizen has either immunity from his/her making mistakes, or that just a "probable cause" (or in this case "speculative cause"...such as hearing gunfire from somewhere) is sufficient. Nor have I noted a duty of an innocent citizen to allow such an arrest, or a surrender of his/her rights of self-defense from a mob chasing him/her.

To be specific: this is not a question over the lawful or unlawful intent of those chasing him, or over if they had "probable cause". Whether Rosenbaum was just intending to use deadly force, or just yell is irrelevant. Whether Grosskreutz or other assailants were attempting murder or just a citizen’s arrest is irrelevant to the lawfulness in use of defensive force. Intentions don't matter.

And on that what Wisconsin use-of-force law requires in the context of self-defense is pretty clear.

Wisconsin §939.48. explains self-defense and defense of others, and it privileges the use of defensive force against an actual threat of harm, but also the use of defensive force against what the defender “reasonably believes” to be a threat of imminent serious bodily harm or death to him/herself.

Look to Wisconsin jury instructions on this point, Wisconsin Jury Instruction Criminal (WJIC) 805. Privilege: Self-Defense: Force Intended or Likely to Cause Death or Great Bodily harm. It addresses §939.48, but also adds: "A belief may be reasonable even though mistaken."

Therefore, it does not matter if those shot were actually engaged in unlawful acts of imminent deadly force aggression, but rather whether Rittenhouse’s perception of them as being engaged in unlawful acts of imminent deadly force aggression was a reasonable perception.... which, obviously, it was.

problem is, he knew he had just shot someone and that those people likely saw him do it.
 
they knew he had shot someone....didn't matter where he was running...they had a right to stop a murderer.

So you claim. I dont agree that curb stomping and hitting someone In the head with a skateboard is a good idea when that someone is neither threatening or attempting to injure anyone while running to the cops. Guess we disagree on that.
 
NBC has a second by second video of the incident. The first shots fired in the auto dealership parking lot sure sound like rifle shots to me.



That's not even close to being complete. They don't do any analysis of the different gunshots heard, let alone pointing out that they obviously came from at least two different guns. They also actually zoomed in past the point where you could see the source of the first shot (although it is clear from their zoomed-in video that it was clearly fired while Kyle still had his back to Rosenbaum).
 
I don't know what picture you're looking at (feel free to post a link), but the one I'm referring to ties the first shot to a person walking right in front of the lot where the shooting happened, and that person was convincingly demonstrated to likely be one of the guys as the gas station confrontation who had a pistol in his hand whole time.

What I've seen from the guy over on AR15.com is a guess that it's the camo pants guy. I don't disagree that he's got the same two people (camo pants and blm backpack girl) in various photos but I noticed all he did in the way of screenshots was to show camo guy with his arm up. And he concludes with:

Obviously, this supports the notion that the figure in the video who appears to be the "First Shooter" might be Grey Camo Pants.
 
What I've seen from the guy over on AR15.com is a guess that it's the camo pants guy. I don't disagree that he's got the same two people (camo pants and blm backpack girl) in various photos but I noticed all he did in the way of screenshots was to show camo guy with his arm up. And he concludes with:

There's far more to it than that. There's a visible muzzle flash and smoke in one angle, which is consistent with the positioning of Grey Camo Pants with his arm in the air in the other video, and the timing with the sound of the shot is perfectl. And then there's the fact that Grey Camo Pants was seen with a handgun (in his hand for no apparent reason) earlier.

As I said, it's not conclusive, but close enough for DP.
 
So you claim. I dont agree that curb stomping and hitting someone In the head with a skateboard is a good idea when that someone is neither threatening or attempting to injure anyone while running to the cops. Guess we disagree on that.

witnesses said clearly that he had just shot someone and then they proceeded to chase him.
 
As Tlrmln has posted, the videos show the first shooter in the parking lot when Rosenbaum et al were chasing the kid. So it seems unlikely that the shot was random.

I don't disagree that camo pants and the girl were in the area. What I've not seen is proof that's who fired the shot.
 
they knew he had shot someone....didn't matter where he was running...they had a right to stop a murderer.

witnesses said clearly that he had just shot someone and then they proceeded to chase him.

I get it. You like to curb stomp people as they are going to the police and not threatening anyone.
 
As far as the mob was aware, he was running to the.cops, yet attacked anyway

As for my opinion, he was going to the cops, but they told him to move. . If someone is running to the cops, I'm not attacking them. Thats just me, though. At most, I might follow to ensure the cops are aware and to be a witness if needed.

I belive I heard he contacted the Cops that night from home. He was officially arrested the next am. I am not 100 percent on that, but that is what i have heard in some news report.

I find this silly. A guy shoots someone 4 times is then running from the scene of the crime and people should believe him when he says he's going to get police. Not that those people knew at the time but Rittenhouse is a liar. When asked by Balch how old he was, he said 18. And he tossed in that he was an EMT. He told others he was an EMT. He wasn't 18 and he wasn't an EMT.

But past that, this whole "he tried" is really weak sauce. He could have stood right there in front of that police car and not moved and then told them he was the shooter. He could have walked beyond that police car and called 911. He could have gone less than 5 minutes down the road to the actual police dept and turned himself in. He could have sat right there on the curb outside the dept and called 911. There is absolutely nothing that was in his way to do any of those things in order for police to take him in and question him. WITH the weapon he used. And the thing is, we know he's not ignorant of the laws. He lived and breathed police, fire and Trump.

There was literally a police news conference that night where they said---we will identify this shooter soon and he will be arrested. Guess what? They could have saved that time if Rittenhouse had really "gone to get police" like he said.
 
There's far more to it than that. There's a visible muzzle flash and smoke in one angle, which is consistent with the positioning of Grey Camo Pants with his arm in the air in the other video, and the timing with the sound of the shot is perfectl. And then there's the fact that Grey Camo Pants was seen with a handgun (in his hand for no apparent reason) earlier.

As I said, it's not conclusive, but close enough for DP.

Link? I've seen the muzzle flash, what I've not seen is how that matches up to camo pants. Here's the shot

muzzle 1.webp

Can you really say that you can determine who's firing that weapon?
 
So for the sake of brevity, my understanding of your post is that Wisconsin case law suggests that that a citizen's arrest in the prevention of a probable commission of a felony is lawful, as is a citizen's arrest for a misdemeanor if a breach of the peace requires it for public safety against acts that threaten or incite violence.

After skimming your cases I found notations that in certain situations, in particular when a citizen witnesses a criminal activity by a person (e.g. that person robbing a house) he may make an arrest. I found nothing to suggest that a citizen has either immunity from his/her making mistakes, or that just a "probable cause" (or in this case "speculative cause"...such as hearing gunfire from somewhere) is sufficient. Nor have I noted a duty of an innocent citizen to allow such an arrest, or a surrender of his/her rights of self-defense from a mob chasing him/her.

To be specific: this is not a question over the lawful or unlawful intent of those chasing him, or over if they had "probable cause". Whether Rosenbaum was just intending to use deadly force, or just yell is irrelevant. Whether Grosskreutz or other assailants were attempting murder or just a citizen’s arrest is irrelevant to the lawfulness in use of defensive force. Intentions don't matter.

And on that what Wisconsin use-of-force law requires in the context of self-defense is pretty clear.

Wisconsin §939.48. explains self-defense and defense of others, and it privileges the use of defensive force against an actual threat of harm, but also the use of defensive force against what the defender “reasonably believes” to be a threat of imminent serious bodily harm or death to him/herself.

Look to Wisconsin jury instructions on this point, Wisconsin Jury Instruction Criminal (WJIC) 805. Privilege: Self-Defense: Force Intended or Likely to Cause Death or Great Bodily harm. It addresses §939.48, but also adds: "A belief may be reasonable even though mistaken."

Therefore, it does not matter if those shot were actually engaged in unlawful acts of imminent deadly force aggression, but rather whether Rittenhouse’s perception of them as being engaged in unlawful acts of imminent deadly force aggression was a reasonable perception.... which, obviously, it was.

Rittenhouse was engaging in unlawful conduct. The gun he possessed was illegal and he traveled to Wisconsin with it and was openly carrying it in a provocative manner for the purported purpose of protecting property not of his own, absent of any legal authorization of any kind from the state. And it's going to be quite stretch to explain just how he felt his life was in imminent danger from a unarmed bare chested man throwing a plastic bag at him. This defense is not available to him.
 
Link? I've seen the muzzle flash, what I've not seen is how that matches up to camo pants. Here's the shot

View attachment 67294539

Can you really say that you can determine who's firing that weapon?

Can you really even say that it was a weapon being fired that produced the flash?
 
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