King Charles III visits Africa

[Lord Tammerlain]

Thats nice...and yet...unlike the Brits who turned over Kenya, you still remain as occupiers, offering trinkets, baubles, and 'apologies'. And you still remain living comfortable with your privilege while the aboriginal first people struggle to survive.

Sorry...but that stinks of hypocrisy.

Heres the thing. If no European had ever set foot on this continent, I assure you....the Iroquois would still have laid waste to the flat heads in the north east.
"It is the height of glory [for a warrior] when he takes prisoners and brings them back alive. As soon as he arrives, the entire village gathers and lines up along the path the captives will take. The prisoners receive a cruel welcome: some tear out their fingernails, others cut off their fingers or ears, others beat them with sticks."

The women, raped and enslaved. Children, raped and killed...often eaten. Warriors used for bloodsport.

There is no judgment there. Its what societies did.

And then societies grew...and learned...and matured.

I do not understand the pathetic need people have to prone themselves to atone for history.

Just because others might have done it, does not make it right. That is the excuse of toddlers

But Tommy did it first.

If invasion and slavery are wrong it is wrong, no matter who did it no matter if someone else did it first or worse

 

[VanceMack]

Just because others might have done it, does not make it right. That is the excuse of toddlers

But Tommy did it first.

If invasion and slavery are wrong it is wrong, no matter who did it no matter if someone else did it first or worse

Your arguments are toddler arguments.

History isnt about right or wrong...its about the study of what happened and if we are smart, how and what we can learn from it. Its unbelievably juvenile to try to judge historical perspectives with modern understandings. 'Wrong' would be doing it TODAY...or...maybe...peeing yourself about something someone else did and judging them, but then outside of offering a few trinkets, keeping the land you stole from someone.

You know...like what YOU are doing.

 

[Juin]

What is there to apologize for?

One is either forward looking, or backward looking. A retrograde state of mind can be dangerous. Kenya is independent, for more than half a century as a matter of fact. The UK has moved on. Healthier minds should be envisioning a brighter 21st Century.

 

[VanceMack]

One is either forward looking, or backward looking. A retrograde state of mind can be dangerous. Kenya is independent, for more than half a century as a matter of fact. The UK has moved on. Healthier minds should be envisioning a brighter 21st Century.

I agree. High fives for whatever progress they have made...and maybe building positive relationships for future partnerships and growth.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Your arguments are toddler arguments.

History isnt about right or wrong...its about the study of what happened and if we are smart, how and what we can learn from it. Its unbelievably juvenile to try to judge historical perspectives with modern understandings. 'Wrong' would be doing it TODAY...or...maybe...peeing yourself about something someone else did and judging them, but then outside of offering a few trinkets, keeping the land you stole from someone.

You know...like what YOU are doing.

60 years is not that long ago, many people will still alive from that time.

 

[VanceMack]

60 years is not that long ago, many people will still alive from that time.

And?

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

And?

You are making it seem like it is so long ago that morality changed drastically in just 60 years,

 

[VanceMack]

You are making it seem like it is so long ago that morality changed drastically in just 60 years,

I'm not. I'm asking your point. If there is someone there from 60 years ago still living today, I should think they would look back to that time with great pride as they successfully gained their independence as a nation. I should also think they would be more concerned with what they have done since becoming independent than prior. Britain didnt swagger in and steal the land from Kenyans...they swaggered in and took the land from Arabs...who swaggered in and took the land from the Portuguese...who didnt really take it from anyone because no one really claimed the land.

 

[bomberfox]

I think he's going there to apologize actually.

Eh only apology would be self governance.

 

[zincwarrior]

Eh only apology would be self governance.

I thought they were self governed. Am I worng?

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

I thought they were self governed. Am I worng?

They are now after fighting for freedom

 

[bomberfox]

I thought they were self governed. Am I worng?

In this way, Kenya became an independent country under the Kenya Independence Act 1963, which established the independent Commonwealth realm of Kenya, with Queen Elizabeth II as head of state
Only in name it seems. Independent with a completely foreign queen they had no say in as head of state.

 

[VanceMack]

You are making it seem like it is so long ago that morality changed drastically in just 60 years,

BTW...I dont mean this conversation to sound dick-ish. I realize it can come across that way. Not my intent.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

What is there to apologize for?

Historical massacres, false borders that trapped warring tribes together forever because all it did was allow one tribe to take power through sheer numbers and then dictate to other tribes without ever letting them gain any real self representation.

Ethnic hostility in Kenya.

Ethnic hostility in Zimbabwe.

Ethnic hostility in Nigeria.

All former colonialist powers bear responsibility for the ensuing bloodshed.

The Kenyans should express their gratitude by being very respectful of Their Majesties.

But maybe the British would have been more gentle if the Kenyan people had respectfully accepted British rule as being very beneficial in teaching them how to run an independent nation when they were eventually prepared to do so.

See above, colonial powers drew artificial boundaries that trapped enemies together forever - also, there is nothing beneficial in having all your wealth and peoples stolen to enrich western nations at cost to your own peoples.

Remember, your nation fought a war of independence to remove the colonial yoke.

 

[Juin]

I'm not. I'm asking your point. If there is someone there from 60 years ago still living today, I should think they would look back to that time with great pride as they successfully gained their independence as a nation.

Exactly. The United States every July 4th proudly celebrates its Independence from His Britannic Majesty free of incessant and retrograde demands of apologies. This allows for a bright and amicable future for the United States and His Britannic Majesty.

I do not see what benefit accrues to Kenya to trap itself in a past that offers nothing but bitterness and recriminations.

I should also think they would be more concerned with what they have done since becoming independent than prior. Britain didnt swagger in and steal the land from Kenyans...they swaggered in and took the land from Arabs...who swaggered in and took the land from the Portuguese...who didnt really take it from anyone because no one really claimed the land.

I am sure various African ethnic groups laid claims over various portions of the land. And you notice that such claims and fights over land did not cease with the departure of Her Britannic Majesty

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Exactly. The United States every July 4th proudly celebrates its Independence from His Britannic Majesty free of incessant and retrograde demands of apologies. This allows for a bright and amicable future for the United States and His Britannic Majesty.

I do not see what benefit accrues to Kenya to trap itself in a past that offers nothing but bitterness and recriminations.







I am sure various African ethnic groups laid claims over various portions of the land. And you notice that such claims and fights over land did not cease with the departure of Her Britannic Majesty

The US and Great Britain were not friendly for many decades after the US independence

The War of 1812 took place 35 or so years after US independence. They did not form a good relationship until the 20th century

 

[Juin]

The US and Great Britain were not friendly for many decades after the US independence

The War of 1812 took place 35 or so years after US independence. They did not form a good relationship until the 20th century

Someone else may "colonise" Kenya in some distant furure. Kenyan attention should be directed at the challenges of the future. I believe Someone fixated with the past has taken his eyes off the ball. Kenyan kids should develop a healthy vision for the world and their futures. Frankly, I have never been too keen on folks with long memories. At the drop of a hat they dredge up thousands years old crimes and grievances

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Someone else may "colonise" Kenya in some distant furure. Kenyan attention should be directed at the challenges of the future. I believe Someone fixated with the past has taken his eyes off the ball. Kenyan kids should develop a healthy vision for the world and their futures. Frankly, I have never been too keen on folks with long memories. At the drop of a hat they dredge up thousands years old crimes and grievances

If the country is being run for the best interests of the country rather than by leaders in the pockets of foreign powers it takes a 40 years to recover from colonial oppression. Some with less internal cohesion will take much longer as internal squabbles over power distract over growth and development ( why say Thailand is doing better than most African countries)