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Kerry condemns Russia's 'incredible act of aggression' in Ukraine


What is your suggestion that Obama do?
 
VanceMack said:
No...but their people were pressing to be.
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No, some of their people were pressing to be.

They ahd already charted a path and created economic ties and were working towards EU membership.
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Yes, but that is far from being a member or even applying to be a member.

Yanukovych chose to abandon the will of the people, cut ties to the EU, and move the Ukraine back to Russia. Thats what has triggered this whole mess. Or have you missed that?
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Again false. Yanukovych chose not to have deep ties to the EU and instead turn towards Russia. He did not CUT ties to the EU. All he did was not agree to the first step that would eventually maybe have made the Ukraine a member of the EU... 10-20 years down the road. That is what triggered this whole mess.
 

So what's the big problem then?
 
Montecresto said:
What is your suggestion that Obama do?
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Stop making stupid comments he cant back up. Stop threatening red lines and wars in the first place. Stop making empty vapid threats built on rhetoric. Act or dont but stop with the pretense you are. If you want credibility as a diplomat and statesman than BE one. Engage world leaders. Stop being a ****ing clown. This is Syria redux and the world is laughing at him.
 
PoS said:
So what do you call taking over a region's government buildings with foreign troops then? A picnic?
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First off it has far from been established that it is "foreign" troops. And how can it be "foreign troops" when 90% of the population is Russian?

Secondly the regional government is actually pro-Russian and according to the reports, the men with guns who took over the buildings, did so to protect them from troops and armed men from Kiev.

The whole situation is driven by fear and that fear is based on past history. The people in Crimea dont trust Kiev because Kiev has removed and tried to remove even more rights form the area. It use to be very independent from the rest of the Ukraine but Kiev has been for years been pulling back powers. And that has all to do with one thing... the military port of Sevastepol... presently under Russian control and wanted badly by the Ukrainian nationalists. That is what Russia is protecting.

Funny cause every defense analyst says they are Russian troops, heck even the Russians themselves admit it. :doh

Russia admits that it has moved troops in Ukraine - Telegraph
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No and no. Russia has admitted it moved some troops to the Crimea yes, but it has not said that those troops have taken over the government buildings or anything else.

Also the so called analysts are just that.. analysts and often with a hidden agenda, especially the American and British ones. Some are even pushing for war for **** sake..
 
Speaking of the Black Sea Fleet

Ukraine: Russia Delivers 'Assault Storm' Deadline

 
PeteEU said:
In some ways yes...but with a much much bigger majority of Russians than there was German's in Sudetenland.
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So you were happy with Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland and eventual takeover of Czechoslovakia? I see.
 
PoS said:
So you were happy with Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland and eventual takeover of Czechoslovakia? I see.
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Which clearly was ok, since the majority of the population of Sudentenland was German already.
 
PeteEU said:
First off it has far from been established that it is "foreign" troops. And how can it be "foreign troops" when 90% of the population is Russian?
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Because they happen to be in Ukraine which isnt Russia. Let me ask you, if Turkish troops took over Berlin since Germany has a Turkish minority you wouldnt have a problem with that either?

Secondly the regional government is actually pro-Russian and according to the reports, the men with guns who took over the buildings, did so to protect them from troops and armed men from Kiev.
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Thats the news according to the Russians, but Crimea is a part of Ukraine and their capital is Kiev isnt it?

How exactly were the Ukrainian nationalists threatening the port of Sevastopol? There was no military buildup by the Ukrainians prior to the Russian takeover.

Anyone with half a brain knows they are Russian troops, they have the same uniform and they are armed with military weapons, if they were vigilantes they wouldnt be that well armed or equipped. It seems to me you have completely swallowed the Russian propaganda machine hook, line and sinker. Congrats.
 
PoS said:
Because they happen to be in Ukraine which isnt Russia. Let me ask you, if Turkish troops took over Berlin since Germany has a Turkish minority you wouldnt have a problem with that either?
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Again Crimea was Russia up to 1954. And the Russians are not a minority in Crimea.. they are the huge majority.

Thats the news according to the Russians, but Crimea is a part of Ukraine and their capital is Kiev isnt it?
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Crimea has their own legislative and have considerable self-rule. The government in Kiev has been slowly but surely chipping away at that self rule, which is part of the over all problem.

How exactly were the Ukrainian nationalists threatening the port of Sevastopol? There was no military buildup by the Ukrainians prior to the Russian takeover.
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It is all paranoia, I dont deny that. But politically the Ukrainian nationalists want Sevastopol and the Russian Black Sea fleet, because they see it as Ukraine's since the fall of the Soviet Union. They also were not happy when the Ukraine gave up its nukes.


And anyone with half a brain also can see that they could just as well be Russian Ukrainians serving in the Ukrainian military/police... since they have the same uniforms. It is in no way as simple as you want it to be and has nothing to do with the Russian propaganda machine. Fact is the Crimea has been run by the Russian speaking population there for decades, so their own police and para-military units not only look Russian but speak Russian. You seem to have eaten the propaganda coming out of Kiev. You do know that the Ukrainian Navy Chief has pledged his and his fleets allegiance to the Russians right? Why would local troops not do the same? Ever think of that?
 
PoS said:
So you were happy with Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland and eventual takeover of Czechoslovakia? I see.
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Yes and no. It is not an easy question to answer, especially when it involves Hitler.

Fact is, after WW1 the western allies ****ed up. They created Czechoslovakia and with that the Sudetenland problem. They forced millions of Germans to live under someone else and that caused discrimination and what not. The Allies created the situation that was used as an excuse to take over Sudentenland. But just as wrong as it was for Hitler to go in as he did and what he did, it was also wrong by the Allies to create Czechoslovakia and split people with a border.

Now I had rather seen that the people voted on what country they wanted to be part off, but that kind of democracy did not exist back then. It does now... which could be a solution to the Ukrainian problem.

The problem is, the Soviets gave the Crimea to Ukraine in the 1950s. This is now coming back to bite everyone in the ass. The people of the Crimea are far more Russian than Ukrainian and the strategic value of Sevastopol is massive for Russia. Add to that discrimination against the Russian speaking people of Ukraine.. real or not, and you have a powdercake ready to explode.

As I have stated before.. the Crimea has considerable self determination within Ukraine. They have their own parliament and local government. The Government in Ukraine have tried to curb this independence for years, that is a fact. The Crimea also has the Black Sea Fleet and only port that Russia has that does not freeze over during the winter. Now the Ukrainian Nationalists have always said that they believed that the Black Sea Fleet was theirs after the fall of the USSR. The Russians of course disagreed and a deal was made which gave the Russians access to Sevastopol and the Black Sea Fleet.

And that is what all this is about... it is about Russian speaking peoples wanting to remain close to Russia and not Kiev and is that wrong? The people in Sudenteland wanted the same thing after all, but because Hitler "took" it then suddenly it was bad? Why should the people pay for the mistakes of the past... the Allies in Sudenteland case and the USSR in the Crimea case?
 

I wonder if the EU didn't know how the Russian population felt and Putin would probably react or whether they understood the implications of their treaty proposal.
 
Samhain said:
Which clearly was ok, since the majority of the population of Sudentenland was German already.
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I suppose he'd be OK with North Korea invading South Korea since there's a Korean majority in it too. :roll:
 
joG said:
I wonder if the EU didn't know how the Russian population felt and Putin would probably react or whether they understood the implications of their treaty proposal.
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That is a whole other story. The EU did, just as the US did.

Now the funny or interesting thing is, that much of Russian wealth is actually in the EU. It is in London, Austria, Germany, in banks and real estate and so on. Now the question is if the EU starts to freeze these assets or seize them, then will Putin be able to keep his backers in check.. And you also have to remember that the only reason that the Russian budget is in balance is the oil price.. anything under 100 bucks a barrel and Putin starts to bleed money. I mean Putin can cut off the gas to Europe.. well we are in a warm winter so /shrug. But we can hurt him and his mafia friends by seizing the 100s of billions and 100s of billions they have smuggled out of Russia over the last 20 years.

There are far more grey areas that are not talked about, but are just as important.

In the end I suspect cool heads will prevail. I suspect the Crimea will get to vote on which country they want to be part off, and Ukraine gets money and gas from Russia as compensation and is left to do what it wants. This of course is all dependent on that there is no attacks or discrimination against the remaining Russian minority in Ukraine.
 

The US, UK, And France at boycotting the G8 until Russia is either booted or pulls out of Ukraine. Russia being out of G8 means they can't veto a sanction.
 

You sure are obsessed over appearances. Who gives a **** if someone is laughing?
 


If he said nothing you'd criticise him for that. If he sent our forces, you may like that, but it would be very costly and I wouldn't. Better you're unhappy then me.
 
Deuce said:
You sure are obsessed over appearances. Who gives a **** if someone is laughing?
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Ever seen a bully that didn't get pissed if someone was laughing at him?
 

58% isn't a huge majority.
 
Deuce said:
The US, UK, And France at boycotting the G8 until Russia is either booted or pulls out of Ukraine. Russia being out of G8 means they can't veto a sanction.
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Russia will quickly secure the country, install a friendly government and be gone. If the US went in, it would cost a trillion dollars, kill 4,500 soldiers, take a decade, and when we left it would be in worse shape then when we arrived. Better just let Putin handle this.
 
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