This is one reason I think statutory rape charges for having "consensual" sex with a 9yo is entirely reasonable and justified... but when the subject is 14-16, perhaps not so much, at least not "rape". Especially not if the "perp" is only 2-3 years older. And what if they're both "underage"? To be fair and reasonable you'd have to either charge both or neither.
Many folks have a tendency to view the divide between adult and minor in a very sharply defined manner... anyone under 18 is referred to as a "child" (actually some stats even include persons up to 25 as "children", incredibly) and 18 and over is "adult". Under 18 is assumed to be irresponsible, far less accountable, and forbidden most adult activity, while 18 and up is, in many ways, treated as fully accountable and so on.
I'm talking about the full spectrum of issues here: sex/consent, ability to legally contract, vote, buy a gun, live independently, self-determination, criminal accountability (juvie justice vs adult court/prison), driving, getting married, etc.
Many seem to want to view it as an all-or-nothing proposition, and laws vary by state.
The thing is, as any parent can tell you, maturity and responsibility are a process with stages.
Huge diff between 3 and 6yo.
Huge diff between 6 and 10.
Huge diff between 11 and 14.
Major changes between 14 and 16.
Pretty big changes in maturity between 16 and 18.
And significant changes in maturity between 18 and 22, as the impulse filter in the brain fully develops.
(While we're here, there's a large diff between 22 and 35, as well, but that's really beyond the scope of this thread.)
The process varies from individual to individual. Some people are more responsible and mature at 12 than most are at 20. Others are still goofball spasmotrons at 22.
Unfortunately an individualized "maturity and responsibility test" isn't practical in most cases... implementing such for all youth society-wide would be a massive undertaking, assuming you could come up with an accurate test in the first place.
So we're left with averages.
Well, on average maturation is a process with stages. A six year old has no business driving a car, we can all agree. A 16yo might be ok, but it is debated.
Trying a 9yo as an adult is something most would oppose, as a 9yo lacks the cognitive ability to appreciate the significance, implications and consequences of many actions. However trying a 14-16yo as an adult is done but often controversial.
I think part of the problem is that many call anyone under 18 a "child". Some extend that word to 18-22yo's.
A 16yo is not a "child" in the same sense...
It's one of those weird kind of things, G.
If you're a 40 year old male having sex with a 14 year old female you're a creep. I don't care whether she consented or not. You're a creep and need some time away from society to ponder your place in the world.
If, on the other hand, you're a 14 year old mail who hooked up with your 30 year old social studies teacher it's still inappropriate but we can talk about things.
If you're a 30 year old female social studies teacher who is hooking up with a 14 year old boy in your class you've got issues and those will be brought up when we explain things to junior.
If you're gay and you're in one of these situations then you'll have to find someone else to deal with all that mess because it's simply become political dynamite and I'm not going there.
Why the double standard?
Because.
At the risk of coming across as some kind of Neanderthal, it's the man's job to protect women. If a guy turns around and starts preying on women then he needs to get his ass kicked. If a woman chooses to prey on a male child she also needs to get her comeuppance but it's actually MORE important that the male child understand what happened so he can sort out his place in the whole situation and move on appropriately.
Discussion? Let's try not to get overly hung up on a single issue please (like consent) because I'm talking about ALL the adult rights/privileges/responsibilities and not just one.
Rape is rape whether it is committed by a man or a woman they should face the same punishment. Your gender does not make the crime any less severe.
Well, "rape" would indicate that there wasn't consent from one of the parties. In that case I'd certainly agree with you. What the OP was discussing, as far as I could tell, was whether it was possible for a 14 year old to give consent.
Here's my take on this, if you've got a couple of 14 year old kids who decide to play doctor then that's an issue for the parents to handle, not the courts. Even if the kids aren't at the legal age for informed consent as long as there wasn't evidence of coercion it's one of those things that happens and it probably would do more harm than good to stick one or both with a criminal record.
Now, if we introduce an age gap or a mental handicap or something the question of coercion and/or informed consent becomes more subjective and may warrant state involvement.
Many folks have a tendency to view the divide between adult and minor in a very sharply defined manner... anyone under 18 is referred to as a "child" (actually some stats even include persons up to 25 as "children", incredibly) and 18 and over is "adult". Under 18 is assumed to be irresponsible, far less accountable, and forbidden most adult activity, while 18 and up is, in many ways, treated as fully accountable and so on.
I'm talking about the full spectrum of issues here: sex/consent, ability to legally contract, vote, buy a gun, live independently, self-determination, criminal accountability (juvie justice vs adult court/prison), driving, getting married, etc.
Many seem to want to view it as an all-or-nothing proposition, and laws vary by state.
The thing is, as any parent can tell you, maturity and responsibility are a process with stages.
Huge diff between 3 and 6yo.
Huge diff between 6 and 10.
Huge diff between 11 and 14.
Major changes between 14 and 16.
Pretty big changes in maturity between 16 and 18.
And significant changes in maturity between 18 and 22, as the impulse filter in the brain fully develops.
(While we're here, there's a large diff between 22 and 35, as well, but that's really beyond the scope of this thread.)
(...clipped for length...)
Discussion? Let's try not to get overly hung up on a single issue please (like consent) because I'm talking about ALL the adult rights/privileges/responsibilities and not just one.
That is not what I was addressing, I was addressing a teacher having sex with a student, it should not matter what gender either the student or the teacher is, they should both be punished the same way.
Well, "rape" would indicate that there wasn't consent from one of the parties. In that case I'd certainly agree with you. What the OP was discussing, as far as I could tell, was whether it was possible for a 14 year old to give consent.
Here's my take on this, if you've got a couple of 14 year old kids who decide to play doctor then that's an issue for the parents to handle, not the courts. Even if the kids aren't at the legal age for informed consent as long as there wasn't evidence of coercion it's one of those things that happens and it probably would do more harm than good to stick one or both with a criminal record.
Now, if we introduce an age gap or a mental handicap or something the question of coercion and/or informed consent becomes more subjective and may warrant state involvement.
I think it should depend on the level of premeditation because that requires a degree of maturity and understanding that an immature mind would lack. If you're intelligent enough to organize a crime then you are intelligent enough to be punished for it.
Many folks have a tendency to view the divide between adult and minor in a very sharply defined manner... anyone under 18 is referred to as a "child" (actually some stats even include persons up to 25 as "children", incredibly) and 18 and over is "adult". Under 18 is assumed to be irresponsible, far less accountable, and forbidden most adult activity, while 18 and up is, in many ways, treated as fully accountable and so on.
I'm talking about the full spectrum of issues here: sex/consent, ability to legally contract, vote, buy a gun, live independently, self-determination, criminal accountability (juvie justice vs adult court/prison), driving, getting married, etc.
In general, yes... but I think there needs to be a cutoff point, a lower limit for trying as an adult.
Even a precociously intelligent 9yo isn't really capable of comprehending the enormity of some things, even if he might be able to plan and carry them out in some circumstances.
I think it should depend on the level of premeditation because that requires a degree of maturity and understanding that an immature mind would lack. If you're intelligent enough to organize a crime then you are intelligent enough to be punished for it.
James Patrick Bulger (16 March 1990[1] – 12 February 1993) was a boy from Kirkby, Merseyside, England, who was murdered on 12 February 1993, at the age of two. He was abducted, tortured and murdered by two ten-year-old boys, Robert Thompson (born 23 August 1982) and Jon Venables (born 13 August 1982).[2][3] Bulger was led away from the New Strand Shopping Centre in Bootle whilst his mother was distracted. His mutilated body was found on a railway line two-and-a-half miles (4 km) away in Walton, Liverpool, two days after his murder. Thompson and Venables were charged on 20 February 1993 with Bulger's abduction and murder.
Explain this one then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger
That case was appalling, and a real head-scratcher as to how two 10yo boys got so wrong in the head as to do such a thing.
That case was appalling, and a real head-scratcher as to how two 10yo boys got so wrong in the head as to do such a thing.
Some kids are broken right out of the chute. I don't know what got those kids that way but I wouldn't count on either of them "growing out of" whatever problem they've got. They both need to lead a life on the funny farm and rarely if ever be more than a stone's throw from the rubber room.
Explain this one then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger
There is no denying that it was calculated and premeditated. Those boys walked 4 km with that child before torturing him to death. They had plenty of time to think through what they were doing.
Unfortunately this maturity thing is not a straight science.
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