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Judge rules Trump’s conviction withstands Supreme Court immunity decision

If it's "unhinged", then you would be able to argue against it.


I don't need to because it's unhinged.

Your delusional conspiracy would necessarily involve DOZENS of people, both at the state and the Federal levels of government. It's ridiculous on its face.
 
I don't need to because it's unhinged.

Your delusional conspiracy would necessarily involve DOZENS of people, both at the state and the Federal levels of government. It's ridiculous on its face.
It's quite plausible, and your inability to mount any kind of a "hinged" reply speaks volumes.
 
The DOJ doesn’t have anything to do with state criminal felony business fraud.

WW
You see this kind of disingenuous bullshit is why you get such hostility from others. I am referring to the DoJ charges against Cohen, the DoJ declined to press those charges against Trump, didn't they?
 
It's quite plausible...


No it is not. Again, it would require a conspiracy of multiple people from the state government, plus multiple MORE people from the federal government. It would never happen.
 
No it is not. Again, it would require a conspiracy of multiple people from the state government, plus multiple MORE people from the federal government. It would never happen.
I don't care to argue about the argument. Either way, the only way the Constitution provides to stop the POTUS from executing his duties is impeachment and removal. States can't hold a sentencing over his head and say we'll get back to you when you are out of office.
 
Wait, how can this be? Haven’t many people here claimed the Supreme Court gave Donald Trump (and only Donald Trump) full immunity that covers everything?
Sigh... No.

After the SCOTUS ruling, the POTUS has immunity for almost anything he does while in office. This is because the SCOTUS decided that:

• Anything and everything the POTUS does in connection with his duties is immune from prosecution.
• The legal system is barred from assuming that because an act is illegal, it is disconnected from the POTUS' duties.
• Investigators will be routinely barred from accessing potential evidence.

Thus, the President could order the assassination of the Environmental Protection Agency, claim that managing personnel is one of his enumerated powers, give everyone else involved in the assassination a pardon, and still be immune from criminal prosecution -- even if he's impeached.

However, the NY state fraud case is based on actions from BEFORE Dear Leader became President in 2016. Meaning the SCOTUS' ruling does not even remotely apply to those charges.

As usual, Dear Leader's attorneys are throwing everything they can grab at the wall, in the desperate hope that something will stick. In this case, they're trying to claim that the entire case was invalid because... prosecutors asked a few White House staffers about some of the details. Meanwhile, none of the fraud was connected to any official duties, and it almost all happened before he took office anyway. I.e. the defense's arguments are insultingly absurd, but that's just par for the course for Dear Leader's scummy lawyers.
 
I don't care to argue about the argument. Either way, the only way the Constitution provides to stop the POTUS from executing his duties is impeachment and removal. States can't hold a sentencing over his head and say we'll get back to you when you are out of office.
Nope, wrong. If the conviction survives appeals, and he's sentenced to prison time, the court and NY State can definitely delay carrying out the punishment until he's out of office.
 
lol. Go back to the filings if you like. The defense filed numerous objections, and it's been a point of discussion for the whole trial. Official communications, discussions with office staff, speeches, etc. were all heavily used.
As a reminder, the defense did a terrible job of its defense throughout the entire trial -- in no small part because a certain unstable client decided it was more important to use the trial for political grandstanding, than to try and win the case.

Back in the real world, all of the acts took place before he was President, and were not in connection to any official duties once he became President. Dear Leader's attorneys have just gone back to flinging shitty arguments at the court, hoping that something somehow sticks anyway.
 
We're not talking about 'paying off a porn star' or making business records.
lol... Hello? Falsifying business records, in order to pay off a porn star during the campaign, is exactly the crime that resulted in his conviction.

There is absolutely nothing in this case that is linked to any Presidential duty. Writing a check to your personal lawyer, to cover a payoff made before the election, doesn't become an "enumerated power of the office" just because he was sitting at the Resolute Desk when he signed it.

Other evidence and testimony presented in the trial, to try to manufacture the felonies, was official acts. Per SCOTUS, such evidence can't be used at all.
lol, no. The immunity only covers official acts. It doesn't cover acts before the individual gets into office.
 
Sigh... No.

After the SCOTUS ruling, the POTUS has immunity for almost anything he does while in office. This is because the SCOTUS decided that:

• Anything and everything the POTUS does in connection with his duties is immune from prosecution.
• The legal system is barred from assuming that because an act is illegal, it is disconnected from the POTUS' duties.
• Investigators will be routinely barred from accessing potential evidence.
I would encourage you to read up on the ruling, as this shows a very flawed understanding. The issue is immunity from official acts, and it's very similar to immunity shared by many other types of public officials.

Thus, the President could order the assassination of the Environmental Protection Agency, claim that managing personnel is one of his enumerated powers, give everyone else involved in the assassination a pardon, and still be immune from criminal prosecution -- even if he's impeached.
This is silly.

However, the NY state fraud case is based on actions from BEFORE Dear Leader became President in 2016. Meaning the SCOTUS' ruling does not even remotely apply to those charges.
Actually the 'crimes' and much of the evidence occurred after he became president. The issue of official acts being used as evidence very much applies.

As usual, Dear Leader's attorneys are throwing everything they can grab at the wall, in the desperate hope that something will stick. In this case, they're trying to claim that the entire case was invalid because... prosecutors asked a few White House staffers about some of the details. Meanwhile, none of the fraud was connected to any official duties, and it almost all happened before he took office anyway. I.e. the defense's arguments are insultingly absurd, but that's just par for the course for Dear Leader's scummy lawyers.
Defense attorneys are supposed to protect their client's rights. And yes, improper evidence was used extensively in obtaining this verdict - over defense objections, and knowing the issue was pending with SCOTUS. You can't un-ring that bell. declaring a mistrial and voiding the verdict is the correct remedy. If prosecutors feel they have a case without using illegal evidence, they can seek to refile.
 
As a reminder, the defense did a terrible job of its defense throughout the entire trial -- ...

Back in the real world, all of the acts took place before he was President, and were not in connection to any official duties once he became President. ...
Addressed above.

Again, the acts being charged - receiving invoices, recording them, and paying them, occurred after he took office. And much of the 'evidence' to create the conspiracy was official acts.
 
lol... Hello? Falsifying business records, in order to pay off a porn star during the campaign, is exactly the crime that resulted in his conviction.

There is absolutely nothing in this case that is linked to any Presidential duty. Writing a check to your personal lawyer, to cover a payoff made before the election, doesn't become an "enumerated power of the office" just because he was sitting at the Resolute Desk when he signed it.
Again, I would encourage you to get familiar with the issues involved. 'falsifying records' was always a stretch. But that's not the issue here. It's official acts that were submitted as 'evidence' to create the unspecified underlying misdemeanor. That evidence can't be used as evidence of wrongdoing. It was not legal evidence - but was used anyway.

lol, no. The immunity only covers official acts. It doesn't cover acts before the individual gets into office.
Again, much of the evidence was of actions that occurred after he was in office - including things that were clearly official acts.
 
Nope, wrong. If the conviction survives appeals, and he's sentenced to prison time, the court and NY State can definitely delay carrying out the punishment until he's out of office.
Then you are giving the State undue and unconstitutional power to affect the POTUS ability to execute the duties of the office. That is why you can't charge a sitting President,
 
I would encourage you to read up on the ruling, as this shows a very flawed understanding. The issue is immunity from official acts, and it's very similar to immunity shared by many other types of public officials.
LOL

I would encourage you to read up on the ruling. As Merchan points out:

This court need not decide whether the crimes of which Defendant was convicted constitute officials acts because Defendant concedes that they were decidedly unofficial.

Ooops. Yep, the claim is only that a subset of the evidence is potentially invalid, because it's somehow tied to "official acts." (More on this below.)

Either way, you haven't even bothered to explain what "official act" was allegedly involved here. Keep in mind that public statements -- such as Dear Leader's publicly available Tweets -- were specifically exempted from protection by the SCOTUS ruling.

Further, while the defense did object to Hicks' testimony on the basis of potential immunity, they did not for Westerhout; therefore, that's not a valid path for appeal. (That's right in the ruling, I guess you missed it.)

That leaves Dear Leader's four discussions with Hicks, about matters not related to his official duties and... that's it. I.e. all the other evidence in the case is valid, including Pecker's testimony and earlier cover-up efforts, unreimbursed, on Dear Leader's behalf; Cohen's audio recordings, documents and testimony; all the checks; Giuliani blurting out that Dear Leader knew what the checks were for, and so on.

(And no, this isn't "similar" to other types of immunity, because... this type of immunity didn't exist until the SCOTUS conjured it out of thin air.)

It's rather hilarious that you think this is somehow an excuse to relitigate a case that Dear Leader blatantly lost.

This is silly.
It's also correct... which is presumably why you didn't even try to point out the potential flaws of my claim. Rather, this is exactly what the SCOTUS ruling entails, which is why it is so dangerous.

Heck, here you are, trying to excuse a Presidential candidate for fraudulently hiding hush money payments to a porn star before he takes office as an "official act." How is that not also "silly?"

Actually the 'crimes' and much of the evidence occurred after he became president. The issue of official acts being used as evidence very much applies.
lol... He committed crimes, and he was convicted. Ditch the scare quotes.

As to the evidence in question? That was rather thin. Merchan summarized it on pages 19-20, did you miss it? For example, her testimony about conversation #4:

"[Trump] spoke to Michael [Cohen], and that Michael had paid this woman to protect him [Defendant] from a false allegation, um, and that - you know, Michael felt like it was his job to protect him, and that's what he was doing. And he did it out of the kindness of his own heart. He never told anybody about it. You know. And he was continuing to try to protect him up until the point where he felt he had to state what was true."

Hicks was protecting Trump in court, not providing evidence against him. Her testimony was not crucial to the conviction. Even if it's out -- a claim that, again, doesn't add up -- it's nowhere near critical enough to toss the case.

Defense attorneys are supposed to protect their client's rights.
That doesn't license them to file crappy briefs, rife with invalid arguments, over and over and over again.

And yes, improper evidence was used extensively in obtaining this verdict....
lol... No, it wasn't, because yet again... Dear Leader telling a White House staffer that he didn't authorize hush money payments to keep a porn star quiet about their affair is not an "official act."

Nor does the law work quite like you think it does. Convictions aren't tossed overboard because... testimony which favors the defendant is later found to be inadmissible.

Of course, you'd know all this if you bothered to read Merchan's ruling. I guess that's too much to ask. :D
 
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Then you are giving the State undue and unconstitutional power to affect the POTUS ability to execute the duties of the office. That is why you can't charge a sitting President,
LOL

First of all, the President most certainly can get dragged into court over civil matters while in office. That was settled in the 1990s.

Next, I hate to break this to you, but: Nothing says that the President is immune from acts taken before he or she is in office, or from acts not connected to official duties.

In addition, Trump's own attorneys conceded that paying his attorney to bribe a porn star into silence is not an "official act."

The SCOTUS ruling is sweeping -- but still doesn't manage to cover this situation.

Since committing fraud to hide hush money payments to a porn star is not an official act -- something even Dear Leader's own attorneys conceded in their filings -- he doesn't get a pass.

That's why the only thing his attorneys objected to, in their filing, was testimony by Cohen, Westerhout and Hicks. Cohen was Trump's private attorney, so that doesn't work. Trump's attorneys did not try to assert immunity with Westerhout's testimony, so they can't raise that on appeal. And as noted in my post above, Hicks' testimony was favorable to Trump -- so even if it gets removed, all the other evidence is valid, and thus the conviction is valid.

And no, you don't get to toss an entire case because one witnesses' testimony is invalidated in the appeal. You still have to show that the testimony was critical to the decision; and since Hicks' testimony was beneficial to the defendant, that's not going to work.
 
LOL

First of all, the President most certainly can get dragged into court over civil matters while in office. That was settled in the 1990s.

Next, I hate to break this to you, but: Nothing says that the President is immune from acts taken before he or she is in office, or from acts not connected to official duties.

In addition, Trump's own attorneys conceded that paying his attorney to bribe a porn star into silence is not an "official act."

The SCOTUS ruling is sweeping -- but still doesn't manage to cover this situation.

Since committing fraud to hide hush money payments to a porn star is not an official act -- something even Dear Leader's own attorneys conceded in their filings -- he doesn't get a pass.

That's why the only thing his attorneys objected to, in their filing, was testimony by Cohen, Westerhout and Hicks. Cohen was Trump's private attorney, so that doesn't work. Trump's attorneys did not try to assert immunity with Westerhout's testimony, so they can't raise that on appeal. And as noted in my post above, Hicks' testimony was favorable to Trump -- so even if it gets removed, all the other evidence is valid, and thus the conviction is valid.

And no, you don't get to toss an entire case because one witnesses' testimony is invalidated in the appeal. You still have to show that the testimony was critical to the decision; and since Hicks' testimony was beneficial to the defendant, that's not going to work.
Wrong post.
 
LOL

I would encourage you to read up on the ruling. .....
Clearly you are going for volume over substance. I would encourage you to read up on the ruling - and really the commentary around it. Merchan is jumping through hoops to try not declare a mistrial.
 
You see this kind of disingenuous bullshit is why you get such hostility from others. I am referring to the DoJ charges against Cohen, the DoJ declined to press those charges against Trump, didn't they?

Because under Federal Campaign finance laws Candidates can contribute as much as they want to the own campiagn. So while there would have been a reporting violation (civil) it would not have risen to campaign fraud (criminal).

Cohen on the other hand was * * NOT * * a candidate so his in-kind loan was a criminal violation of federal law.

WW
 
Clearly you are going for volume over substance.
😆

I would encourage you to read up on the ruling....
You mean... the ruling that I quoted several times in my post? 😆

Merchan is jumping through hoops to try not declare a mistrial.
😆😆😆

Yeah, it's a bit too late for that.

"Mistrials are trials that are not successfully completed. They’re terminated and declared void before the jury returns a verdict or the judge renders his or her decision in a nonjury trial."

Thanks for displaying your inability to actually address any of the points I raised.
 
Because under Federal Campaign finance laws Candidates can contribute as much as they want to the own campiagn. So while there would have been a reporting violation (civil) it would not have risen to campaign fraud (criminal).

Cohen on the other hand was * * NOT * * a candidate so his in-kind loan was a criminal violation of federal law.

WW
lol. Was it a campaign contribution by Cohen? Or a loan?
 
You mean... the ruling that I quoted several times in my post? 😆
Yes, read up about that ruling. Again, the judge is twisting himself in knots to try to maintain the case.

Yeah, it's a bit too late for that.

"Mistrials are trials that are not successfully completed. They’re terminated and declared void before the jury returns a verdict or the judge renders his or her decision in a nonjury trial."
Not too late. What do you think the motion was for?
Thanks for displaying your inability to actually address any of the points I raised.

Except I did address them, several times. You just don't like the answers.
 
Because under Federal Campaign finance laws Candidates can contribute as much as they want to the own campiagn. So while there would have been a reporting violation (civil) it would not have risen to campaign fraud (criminal).

Cohen on the other hand was * * NOT * * a candidate so his in-kind loan was a criminal violation of federal law.

WW
Which leads you back to no federal law being broken and Bragg being full of shit. It's like you are almost there but you can't bring yourself to admit it.
 
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