Jordan Peterson vs. 20 Atheists on Morality (2 Viewers)

[Dans La Lune]

Thank you for the permission to not watch your video of the insufferable Jordan Peterson. I was so worried about what you might think. (That's my sarcastic voice.)

Do you think I'm a Jordan Peterson supporter or something?

 

[Dans La Lune]

Im an atheist. But with regard to an afterlife, i really hope I am wrong. And people trusting or believing that one day they will meet a departed loved one is a tremendous way to diffuse grief and an overwhelming sense of loss.

Certain kinds of people had better pray there's not an afterlife predicated on judgement for how they've conducted themselves in life. It's a long way down.

 

[lynnwinslow]

Do you think I'm a Jordan Peterson supporter or something?

I think you like to passive aggressively troll in here. Other than that, I don't really think about what you support.

 

[Dans La Lune]

More:


All very strange.

It's almost as if Peterson was humiliated by everyone he debated on this issue.

 

[Dans La Lune]

And? Care to make a point, or are you just advertise for Peterson?

It's an odd advertisement, since the summary video brutalizes Peterson's performance.

Obviously the former. Being a "good Christian" is useless.

I think the fact that Good Christian vs. Good Person are legitimately two separate choices is an indictment on the idea of being a Good Christian.

 

[OlNate]

Full video:



Summary of Peterson's performance + Selected Timestamp:



Also, do you think it's more important to be a Good Person (Morality) or Good Christian (Obedience)?

Jordan Peterson is one of the last people I'd want representing Christianity.

That out of the way, if the text is to be believed, there is no difference between being a good person and being a good Christian, due to the things that we are called to do, so I don't really know how to answer the question.

Both, I guess. But only if you are a Christian. For everyone else, hopefully being a good person is the goal.

 

[Loulit01]

Neither gods nor religions are necessary to foster good people. As an example, you can always be a Stoic...

Stoicism, in simple terms, is a philosophy focused on finding inner peace and resilience by focusing on what you can control (your thoughts and actions) and accepting what you cannot (events beyond your control). It emphasizes virtues like wisdom, courage, justice, and self-control to navigate life's challenges with equanimity. Essentially, Stoicism aims to help you live a virtuous and fulfilling life by understanding and accepting the nature of the world and your place within it.

 

[Daisy]

Do you think a system that rewards obedience over morality is just?

Man's? No...I do if it's Jehovah's system because His is obedience/morality combined...

"The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness who is never unjust; Righteous and upright is he." Deuteronomy 32:4

 

[Daisy]

"Wanting" is not an indicator of probability. Why is our - Homo Sapiens - life more "transcendent" than that of any other animal? And what, if anything, does "life force" mean?

I can answer that, Sweden...life force is the impersonal spirit/force of God that keeps us alive...

As noted, the Scriptures refer to the ruʹach, or life-force, as being not only in humans but also in animals. (Ge 6:17; 7:15, 22) Ecclesiastes 3:18-22 shows that man dies in the same manner as the beasts, for “they all have but one spirit [weruʹach], so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast,” that is, as to the life-force common to both. This being so, it is clear that the “spirit,” or life-force (ruʹach), as used in this sense is impersonal. As an illustration, one might compare it to another invisible force, electricity, which may be used to make various types of machines operate—causing stoves to produce heat, fans to produce wind, computers to solve problems, television sets to produce figures, voices and other sounds—yet which electric current never takes on any of the characteristics of the machines in which it functions or is active.

Psalm 146:3, 4 says that when man’s “spirit [form of ruʹach] goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” The spirit, or life-force, that was active in man’s body cells does not retain any of the characteristics of those cells, such as the brain cells and their part in the thinking process. If the spirit, or life-force (ruʹach; pneuʹma), were not impersonal, then it would mean that the children of certain women who were resurrected by the prophets Elijah and Elisha were actually in conscious existence somewhere in the period during which they were dead. So, too, with Lazarus, who was resurrected some four days after his death. (1Ki 17:17-23; 2Ki 4:32-37; Joh 11:38-44) If such had been the case, it is reasonable that they would have remembered such conscious existence during that period and upon being resurrected would have described it, told about it. There is nothing to indicate that any of them did so. Hence, the personality of the dead individual is not perpetuated in the life-force, or spirit, that stops functioning in the deceased person’s body cells.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200004211

 

[Daisy]

Certain kinds of people had better pray there's not an afterlife predicated on judgement for how they've conducted themselves in life. It's a long way down.

It's not that far...6 ft or so...the grave...

 

[Daisy]

It's an odd advertisement, since the summary video brutalizes Peterson's performance.



I think the fact that Good Christian vs. Good Person are legitimately two separate choices is an indictment on the idea of being a Good Christian.

Not really...there are good Christians and there are bad Christians, as Jesus pointed out in Matthew 7:13,14; 21-23...

 

[Dans La Lune]

Man's? No...I do if it's Jehovah's system because His is obedience/morality combined... "The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness who is never unjust; Righteous and upright is he." Deuteronomy 32:4

Do you see the moral circular paradox here?

 

[Daisy]

Do you see the moral circular paradox here?

No...

 

[Noodlegawd]

It's an odd advertisement, since the summary video brutalizes Peterson's performance.

I wouldn't know. I don't click on links (especially video links) that are posted on this site with no explanation or discussion.

I think the fact that Good Christian vs. Good Person are legitimately two separate choices is an indictment on the idea of being a Good Christian.

I don't agree. You can make that comparison with a lot of things: Good doctor, good painter, etc. The question is whether one can be both at the same time. If you can't be a good Christian and a good person at the same time, then you might have a good point.

 

[Dans La Lune]

No...

What is morality? Is it a set of rules that God determines, which he can violate, but you cannot? Or is it a set of universal rules that determine justice and benevolence which even God must adhere to? Or something else? For example, I believe morality is derived from empathy and knowledge.

If morality is obedience to God, what if God commands you to be immoral? This is not speculative. It's actually in the Bible. God has commanded genocide.



In which case, why do you follow God? Because he is moral, because he determines morality (morality = obedience), or because you are following power in expectation of a reward?

 

[Dans La Lune]

I wouldn't know. I don't click on links (especially video links) that are posted on this site with no explanation or discussion.

Fair enough. I was trying not to sour the discussion with my editorializing, and thus leaned on my question as the motivation for discussion.

I don't agree. You can make that comparison with a lot of things: Good doctor, good painter, etc. The question is whether one can be both at the same time. If you can't be a good Christian and a good person at the same time, then you might have a good point.

The question isn't that you can't be both, but which is more important. They can be separate paths, and they can overlap.

 

[Daisy]

What is morality? Is it a set of rules that God determines, which he can violate, but you cannot? Or is it a set of universal rules that determine justice and benevolence which even God must adhere to? Or something else?

JEHOVAH, supreme Judge, Statute-Giver, and King, “is a lover of righteousness and justice.” (Psalm 33:5; Isaiah 33:22) Moses, mediator of the Law covenant and a prophet “whom Jehovah knew face to face,” became intimately acquainted with Jehovah’s just ways. (Deuteronomy 34:10; John 1:17) Shortly before Moses died, he highlighted the excelling quality of Jehovah’s justice. In the hearing of all the congregation of Israel, he called out the words of this song: “Give ear, O heavens, and let me speak; and let the earth hear the sayings of my mouth. . . . I shall declare the name of Jehovah. Do you attribute greatness to our God! The Rock, perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; righteous and upright is he.”—Deuteronomy 32:1, 3, 4.

Justice marks all of Jehovah’s activities, and it is always exercised in perfect harmony with his wisdom, love, and power. At Job 37:23, God’s servant Elihu reminded Job: “As for the Almighty, we have not found him out; he is exalted in power, and justice and abundance of righteousness he will not belittle.” And King David wrote: “Jehovah is a lover of justice, and he will not leave his loyal ones.” (Psalm 37:28) What comforting assurance! In all of God’s ways, he will never for one moment abandon those loyal to him. God’s justice guarantees this!
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1989167#h=1:0-22:0

In which case, why do you follow God? Because he is moral, because he determines morality (morality = obedience),

Both...

because you are following power in expectation of a reward?

No, I love Him and I want to please Him...

 

[Fletch]

View attachment 67571685

Yes, but Im not the one complaining about wasting time. I know I waste too much time here.

 

[watsup]

, I believe morality is derived from empathy and knowledge.

 

[Fletch]

Said the guy who has 67,000 posts.

See above.

 

[Airyaman]

Yes, but Im not the one complaining about wasting time. I know I waste too much time here.

If you enjoy reading and posting, then is it really a waste of time?

 

[Noodlegawd]

Fair enough. I was trying not to sour the discussion with my editorializing, and thus leaned on my question as the motivation for discussion.



The question isn't that you can't be both, but which is more important. They can be separate paths, and they can overlap.

I can't speak for Christians, but I would imagine they would tell you that you can't be a good Christian without being a good person. To some extent I agree, but I also think that being a good Christian (by their own definition) may require you to do some things that run contrary to being a good person (IMO).

 

[Fletch]

What is morality? Is it a set of rules that God determines, which he can violate, but you cannot? Or is it a set of universal rules that determine justice and benevolence which even God must adhere to? Or something else? For example, I believe morality is derived from empathy and knowledge.

Knowledge of what? evil people can be very knowledgable.

If morality is obedience to God, what if God commands you to be immoral? This is not speculative. It's actually in the Bible. God has commanded genocide.



In which case, why do you follow God? Because he is moral, because he determines morality (morality = obedience), or because you are following power in expectation of a reward?

My personal opinion is that man created God in an attempt to create an objective standard of morality. If you say murder is wrong and I say murder is right, which one of us is correct? And why? The side that wins that debate in the absence of an objective moral code is the side with the most power. God represented the ultimate power.

 

[Fletch]

If you enjoy reading and posting, then is it really a waste of time?

Good point. I do enjoy it. So I guess as the song goes "If its all a waste of time, then im only wasting mine."

 

[Dans La Lune]

Knowledge of what? evil people can be very knowledgable.

You missed the first part of the equation. Evil is knowing the difference between is right and what is wrong, and choosing to do wrong. A moral compass is that which guides you as to what is right and wrong.

My personal opinion is that man created God in an attempt to create an objective standard of morality. If you say murder is wrong and I say murder is right, which one of us is correct? And why? The side that wins that debate in the absence of an objective moral code is the side with the most power. God represented the ultimate power.