• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Jews against Zionism

Whip

Banned
Joined
Sep 13, 2006
Messages
56
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I really like this site and some others like it. Eye opening for those who want their eyes opened.

http://www.realnews247.com/jews_against_zionism.htm
 
What an utter rubbish is the first post of this thread.

There are about 15 million Jews all over the world and you brought only couple of names!

Ovadia Yosef, the former Israeli chief Rabbi vote for the Israeli elections:


First of all the land of Israel belongs to the nation if Israel (the name Jews is because the Romans called in that name to the Israelis from the Judah tribe because 2700 years ago the Assyrians exiled the 10 tribes and those 10 tribes assimilated with the gentiles and lost their Torah and became Gentiles so that the children of Israel of today and in the last 2000 years are mainly from the tribe of Judah).

This is the land that God entered us when he took us from the slavery in ancient Egypt and commanded us to live in it, settle down in it and to live as a kingdom of priest in it.

It's true that God warned us that if we will not follow the commandments then the holy land will vomit us from herself but as long as Jews are living in the land of Israel and follow the commandments of the Torah and the 10 commandments then they got all the rights to live in it.

This is the reason why we had 2 main exiles and in both of them the temple of God was destroyed. Although the Romans deported us in 70 A.D, there were Jews who didn't go to the exile and stayed in Israel.

Jews can (and commanded) to live in the land of Israel as long as they follow the commandments of the Torah.

There is no prohibition to Jews to live in the land of Israel.

The Orthodox Jews do believe in the recreation of the state of Israel.

There is a very small group within the Orthodox group in the name of Neturei Karta which believe that the state of Israel is not to religious for them to live in and this is the reason why they don't live in Israel (except couple of hundreds of them who are living in the neighbourhood of Mea Shearim in Jerusalem).

They represent only themselves. They were many of them before the ww2 who didn't want to go to Israel and because of that they finished their lives in the gas chambers. And they also deal with anti semitism in America from hate groups.

They are not saying that there is a say in the Torah/Tanach that Isreal should not be created until the Messiah comes cause there isn't such a say at all!!

what there is is a prophecy about the Messiah who will do 3 things:

1. Built the third temple of God in Jerusalem.
2. Will bring the rest of the Jews who are living all over the world to the land of Israel.
3. Will fight the "Wars of God" to restore the greater Israel which include parts of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq etc.

It's not that that untill the Messiah will show himself then the Jews are forbidden from living in Israel, not at all. On the opposite, Jews must live in Israel cause Israel as the home of them and their presence in this land protect them.

Here's a list of Rabbis who will tell you that Jews must live in Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Meir_Lau

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Isaac_Kook

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Goren

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_HaLevi_Herzog

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avraham_Shapira

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isser_Yehuda_Unterman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Eliyahu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yona_Metzger

Couple of pictures:

http://masoret.hevre.co.il/hydepark/topic.asp?whichpage=1&topic_id=1990937

http://masoret.hevre.co.il/hydepark/topic.asp?whichpage=2&topic_id=1990937

http://masoret.hevre.co.il/hydepark/topic.asp?whichpage=3&topic_id=1990937

http://masoret.hevre.co.il/hydepark/topic.asp?whichpage=4&topic_id=1990937

http://masoret.hevre.co.il/hydepark/topic.asp?whichpage=5&topic_id=1990937

http://masoret.hevre.co.il/hydepark/topic.asp?whichpage=6&topic_id=1990937

http://masoret.hevre.co.il/hydepark/topic.asp?whichpage=7&topic_id=1990937

http://masoret.hevre.co.il/hydepark/topic.asp?whichpage=8&topic_id=1990937

 
I'll go a step further. On the site that Whip posted, every single link brings you to a 404 error page. Nothing works. Leads me to believe that it is just some anti-semetic website using a vast minority of names of Jews against the state of Israel to propogate their moronically racist agenda.

This is a pointless thread, begun for no purpose other than to infame, due to it's obvious intent to proport bigottry. Undoubtedly just another mindless stormfront drone that either needs to be exposed or ignored.
 


Or perhaps a sock puppet. This is such a tendency among those with hateful agendas that I would think it necessary to check isps as a matter of course in cases when these things slither in here.
 
This site is called Debate Politics, right? Being that Israel has political agendas and there are Jews who oppose those agendas, doesn't that open this up for a political debate? Jews against Zionism, being Jews, can't be dismissed as antisemites as easily as someone from StormFront, can they? Makes me wonder if this is the reason you three oppose this topic.

Sorry about that Capt. Link was working fine when I posted it. Try this site. Pretty much the same thing.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/index.cfm


http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/index.cfm




Don't look like StormFronters to me.
 
Israel is a democracy and as such, dissent is both lawful and healthy.

Jacob is quite correct in stating that this dissent stems from a miniscule sect of Judaism and is in all actuality a theological disagreement.

Your reputation preceeds you Whip. From perusing a selection of your posts on other threads it seems well earned. Good. I enjoy the game.
 
What game would that be, Tashah? I simply posted these links and pictures to show that not all Jews are Zionist who support Israel.
 
Whip said:
What game would that be, Tashah? I simply posted these links and pictures to show that not all Jews are Zionist who support Israel.
Click to expand...
Why that wonderful game called longevity. You see Whip, once you grin you're in. Welcome to my world. Carpé Diem.
 

Ok zionism is correct because a number of prominent religious leaders have said it is, and because god, in his wisdom, is in complete agreement with you. Im sorry your logic has won me over, ive got to admit your right.

Whats even more ironic about your use of scriptoral arguments is that the monothieistic scriptures tent to make the case for a just society where foriegners are treated well.

One mistake you,ve made is to compare fundamentalist judaism with being a jew. I know a number of jews who are hard-core secularists so theres no definate link.

Another mistake you,ve made is that although zionism may be quite popular among Israeli Jews its not so popular among european jews. As this member of the Jewish socialist group illustrates. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dTXzji50M4

I think guy in question was much to harsh on Israels offensive against lebbanon [indeed i had many an argument with people who went to the demonstation the speach was made at] but it proves very well that zionism and jewishness are not the same. This proves that anti-zionism and anti-semetism are not the same and that zionists should stop hideing behind this smoke screen.
 
Tashah said:
Why that wonderful game called longevity. You see Whip, once you grin you're in. Welcome to my world. Carpé Diem.
Click to expand...
Let's dance.

You said in your previous post that Israel is a democracy. Many would argue against that, including most of those whom call themsleves Jews against Zionism. Since you live in Israel and are, I presume, an Israeli, would you describe Israel as an racist state that practices apartheid? I ask this because of the treatment Arabs receive at the hands of the majority. For instance the wall built to segregate (seperate) Arabs from Jews? Further, is it not true that Jews receive preferrential treatment to all others who reside in Israel? Is it also not true that it is in Israels agenda to drive all Arabs from all of what Jews consider the "promised land" making Israel an exclusively Jewish land?
 
Red Dave, thank you for this link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dTXzji50M4
I have seen it before but think it is an excellent addition to the topic.

Tashah, I am seeking to contact some friends, one of whom lives in Israel, who would be able to address this topic much more imformatively than I myself can. I am also contacting members of Jews against Zionism. Hopefully at least one person who opposes Zionism can step forward and continue this debate. If not, then I will continue to do my best.

As a side note. I have been to Israel and I have witnessed much. I will, in part, rely upon my own experiences there should someone more qualified not come forward.

Cordially,
Manasseh
 

You are quite correct. This is Debate Politics and this is a viable topic to debate. When your link didn't work, I automatically believed that this was yet another attempt to create an inciting thread towards bigottry. Based on my own possible presumptuousness (brought on by feistiness after being in a local ER for 4 hours, and the lateness of the hour) and the fact that your other link worked, I would be glad to debate this topic.

I'm not sure what your point here is, though. There absolutely was and is a small minority of Jews that opposed and/or oppose the existance of the state of Israel either on religious/theological or on political grounds. Your OP consisted of a quote and a link, but nothing more than a one line comment that could be construed as anti-Israeli. If you truely want to debate this, post some original comments with a premise and perhaps more links to back up what your saying and let's see where this goes.
 
Captain, read my previous post. I am not 100% qualified to debate this topic. I have invited others into this foray because they are. Should they not show then I will continue to the best of my ability. This is a topic that requires great knowledge of the subject. I highly recommend that if you are not well versed that you quietly step to the side. This is not meant as an insult. This is an arguement that requires a vast knowledge of Judaism as well as Zionism. I highly suspect that mine exceeds yours but fails miserably in comparison to those who I have invited.
 

No insult taken. Let's see who shows. Though my knowledge of Zionism may not be vast, I am confident that my knowledge of Judaism is completely sufficient to debate most anyone. I am also confident in my ability to research and learn. I would, however, like to see the premise and direction of the premise before committing.
 
In this topic Captain I would prefer to sit to the side and observe even with my knowledge of the Torah, the Talmud and Jewish/Zionist history. I would really like to see qualified Rabbis openly discuss this. But because of religious teachings I do not see a True Torah Rabbi coming forward. Talmud teaches that Gentiles are not to know the ways of the Jews. To openly discuss Judaism among Gentiles is punishable by death. Watch. No one will come forward or I will be banned and this discussion will silently go to oblivion.
 
Whip said:

Don't look like StormFronters to me.
Click to expand...

This photo is doctored. See the way the words are angled improperly on the signs? See the way the letters appear to be raised and not a part of the reality? The problem with this sort of stage (anti-war, anti-Israel, anti-America, anti-whatever), is that the members of the protests usually ruin their credibility by distorting and producing insignificant examples.

What seems to escape those that sit comfortably far away from the Middle East in Europe and North America is that Jews in Israel have been fighting for survival since 1949. All opinions from outsiders are insignificant and they have no right to cast judgement while sitting on their asses in their safe and sound environments.

It's a rediculous topic.
 
Last edited:
What I want to know is why a democratic and secular nation is using religious doctrine to justify the settlement and military occupation of the West Bank?

Why?
 
GarzaUK said:
What I want to know is why a democratic and secular nation is using religious doctrine to justify the settlement and military occupation of the West Bank?

Why?
Click to expand...


and what I want to know is why so many European uberleftists join the uberright nazis when it comes to their persecution of Jewish poeple?

I find it especially telling that you offer not so much as a single word to confront or criticize the racist skinhead white supremecist who originated the posting, but chose, instead, to join him in solidarity.
 
GarzaUK said:
What I want to know is why a democratic and secular nation is using religious doctrine to justify the settlement and military occupation of the West Bank?

Why?
Click to expand...

It's kind of hard to deal with an entire region who voices that "God" wishes you destroyed without reaching into the same bag for a little defense for existence.

Try being an Israeli. Maybe you'll understand what it's like to watch your people die because a suicide bomber claims "divine justification."

The West Bank was occupied for a reason. It was not to conquer. It was not exploit resources. It was not to enslave people. It was in defense and for protection. How many other countries have practiced the art of colonization for other reasons and actually "occupied?" I don't think anyone in Europe has a right to accuse Israel of doing anything that their countries spent centuries perfecting.
 
Last edited:
GarzaUK said:
What I want to know is why a democratic and secular nation is using religious doctrine to justify the settlement and military occupation of the West Bank?

Why?
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but who are you to ask about "occupations"?

It was your nation who OCCUPIED MY COUNTRY, prevented from death camps survivors to enter, tore it appart and gave half of it to a Hashemite family from Iraq which helped Britain in WW1.

It was your nation who occupied half of the world and supressed millions of people.

It were your Roman ancestors who occupied the land of Israel 2000 years ago, changed her name and expelled millions of Jews. Now when the Jews are returning to their homeland you dare to speak about "occupation"? How would you feel if I'll conquer your house and when you'll try to restle with me and to restore the house to your own hands then I'll say that you are "occupying" me?

You are changing the reality completely! I think that the only occupiers in the middle east are the Arabs who occupied not all the middle east but 1/3 of the world. And I think that the recent war in Lebanon happened only because Israel gave parts of her legitimate land to her enemies, A things which weaken her.

I wish Israel will come back soon as possible to Gaza strip cause the evacuation of the Israelis one year ago was a crime against humanity. The Arabs should go back to the place that they came from and this is Saudi Arabia. And this is what will be in the future when the children of Israel will restore the greater Israel.

There are many people who used to think that Jews are people who needs to live in European ghettos. These people loves Jews only when they are powerless and miserable.

Are you one of these people, GarzaUK?

I need to answer others who asked questions in this thread but I'm busy untill the end of this weekend. I'll answer everyone.
 

Oh so I persecute Jewish people now? I must be an anti-semite right? If I question the jolly good Israeli government who is good in everyway, I must hate the Jewish people. Jesus Christ almighty. :roll:
Nazis. White supremecists. Racists. Stand for everything that I'm against.

Do I UNQUESTIONALY support the Israeli government, no I do not.
Do I UNQUESTIONALY support the my own government, no I do not.

I look at both sides of the arguement logically. I do not blindly or fanatically support a side no matter what like you obviously do.
I notice you did not answer my question.
 

So you fight Muslim divine justification with Judaism divine justification??

Yes European nations and the US did peform colonisation and bad treatment of the local natives. And we stopped, because it was wrong. Why in the 21st century are we supporting a country that still does?
MY country is repsonsible for many of the evils of the past. I can accept them, say my country was wrong in those instances. I can accept my countries bloody wrong doings. Can the Israelis accept their wrong doings? Can the Palestinians?

I'm sure part of the reason to occupy the West Bank was for protection. That doesn't explain why they put Israeli settlements in the West Bank. If your protecting your civilians Gunny. Why put them in enclosed settlements surrounded by Palestinians? LOL, not very wise.

The settlements of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and yes even Sinai, were done because the BIBLE told them their land was theres. And like I said that is very odd for a secular democracy. There is no excuse for the settlements only colonisation. You know deep down that this is true.
 

It was Britain and the UN that give you a country in the first place. lol Admittingly we messed it up a bit.

By International Law, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are meant to be a Palestinian State. You are getting too greedy Jacob. Those Arabs have been there for a millennia, not just for a few years, they weren't just passing through. Did you mum never tell you to share?

Like I said I can accept my country's evil doings. Can you accept yours?
 

Indeed and part of the reason we gave Isreal an independant state was pressure from zionist terroism. Ironically.
 
GarzaUK said:
So you fight Muslim divine justification with Judaism divine justification??
Click to expand...

I am unaware of any Jewish suicide bombers or Jewish terrorist organizations that spread an ideolgy of destruction towards another civilization. Considering the amount of suicide bombers that come from "Palestine" and the amount of thorns Hezbollah places in their sides, I would call this a considerable constraint they receive little credit for.

Both sides can claim what "God" wants all they want, but only the side that slaughters in his name is wrong.

GarzaUK said:
Can the Israelis accept their wrong doings? Can the Palestinians?
Click to expand...

They can correct situations of the past and have done so in recent times. Palestinians do not see the slaughter of civilians as wrong. This is the difference in cultures. Today's Palestinian (the puppet of Iran and the House of Saud) is not the Palestinian of two decades ago.


The settlements occurred after the Muslim's gave cause. Claims of "divinity" are insignificant. To the victor goes the spoils. This is what I know "deep down."
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…