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Jesus never existed.

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http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

I have initiated this as a seperate thread from the one that discusses the alleged negro origins of jesus xrist as there were complaints from certain posters that this discussion was detracting from the issue of the other thread.
I invite people to study the above mentioned site with an open mind and then contribute thoughtful posts on this thread.
 

Gibberish

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Aryan Imperium said:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

I have initiated this as a seperate thread from the one that discusses the alleged negro origins of jesus xrist as there were complaints from certain posters that this discussion was detracting from the issue of the other thread.
I invite people to study the above mentioned site with an open mind and then contribute thoughtful posts on this thread.
Most Christians go on faith that Jesus existed and did what he did, rather then on scientific fact. Which makes that research pointless towards that demographic. I do wait for someone to post in favor of the bible with a higher knowledge on the bibles historical backing then I have.

Aryan, you might enjoy reading "Where God Was Born" by Bruce Feiler.
 
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Gibberish said:
Most Christians go on faith that Jesus existed and did what he did, rather then on scientific fact. Which makes that research pointless towards that demographic. I do wait for someone to post in favor of the bible with a higher knowledge on the bibles historical backing then I have.

Aryan, you might enjoy reading "Where God Was Born" by Bruce Feiler.
Gibberish, strangely I don`t have any issues with those who accept some metahistorical validity to the xrist myth but I am agaisnt those who have sought to present the myth as having an historical and/or scientific basis which of course it hasn`t. In the name of "xrist" millions throughout the world have perished,cultures and religions have all but disappeared and truth has been suppressed.
Lamentably this side of xtianity still continues albeit in a muted form and it is troubling that again in the name of xrist world statesmen such as Bush and Blair wage their crusades against the moslem world. They do not keep their religion to themselves but use it as a motivating force to wage war agaisnt cultures which to them are alien.
 

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Aryan Imperium said:
Gibberish, strangely I don`t have any issues with those who accept some metahistorical validity to the xrist myth but I am agaisnt those who have sought to present the myth as having an historical and/or scientific basis which of course it hasn`t. In the name of "xrist" millions throughout the world have perished,cultures and religions have all but disappeared and truth has been suppressed.
Lamentably this side of xtianity still continues albeit in a muted form and it is troubling that again in the name of xrist world statesmen such as Bush and Blair wage their crusades against the moslem world. They do not keep their religion to themselves but use it as a motivating force to wage war agaisnt cultures which to them are alien.
Ok Aryan let me get this straight. You have problems believing that Jesus Christ existed who lived roughly 2000 years ago...but yet you firmly believe in ancient Hindu gods that lived about 5000-6000 years ago.

O.K.
 
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George_Washington said:
Ok Aryan let me get this straight. You have problems believing that Jesus Christ existed who lived roughly 2000 years ago...but yet you firmly believe in ancient Hindu gods that lived about 5000-6000 years ago.

O.K.
George,

I don`t believe in the gods in the same way that a child may believe in Father Xmas. I view the gods as archetypes,present within the Collective Unconscious that can be manifested in certain conditions. This is how I and many other Wotanists view Wotan.
I have no problem with people believing in xrist as an archetype but I do take issue with anyone who attempts to make me believe that this literary composite ever existed in a physical sense.
As an Aryan I have my gods,my own archetypes which resonate better with my spiritual make up,far better than any deities from the semitic pantheon.
 

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Aryan Imperium said:
George,

I don`t believe in the gods in the same way that a child may believe in Father Xmas. I view the gods as archetypes,present within the Collective Unconscious that can be manifested in certain conditions. This is how I and many other Wotanists view Wotan.
I have no problem with people believing in xrist as an archetype but I do take issue with anyone who attempts to make me believe that this literary composite ever existed in a physical sense.
As an Aryan I have my gods,my own archetypes which resonate better with my spiritual make up,far better than any deities from the semitic pantheon.
The really frightful thing is that I understand how your faith works. Mine is very similar...I believe deeply in the icons and archetypes that resonate with catholocism...the majesty of the church and the intervention of the saints...the relics and the structure. Not so much in a mythical sense, but more that the icons and themes are symbolic keys to the psyche and a common weltanschaung that mankind shares. Belief in the parting of the red sea is like believing in the easter bunny to me...but it is symbolic of the strength one can draw from divinity.
 

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jallman said:
The really frightful thing is that I understand how your faith works. Mine is very similar...I believe deeply in the icons and archetypes that resonate with catholocism...the majesty of the church and the intervention of the saints...the relics and the structure. Not so much in a mythical sense, but more that the icons and themes are symbolic keys to the psyche and a common weltanschaung that mankind shares. Belief in the parting of the red sea is like believing in the easter bunny to me...but it is symbolic of the strength one can draw from divinity.
Do you believe in the Trinity, Heaven, and Hell existing as real, physical entities?
 

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George_Washington said:
Do you believe in the Trinity, Heaven, and Hell existing as real, physical entities?
Not at all actually. I believe the trinity is an archetype symbolising male power and spirituality, just like the Hecate goddess image symbolizes the female spirituality and power. Heaven and hell, I believe are states of mind inflicted by the psyche in response to self realization of the balance of something akin to karma.

I would put forth a quote from paradise lost....it is a quote by satan, another powerful archetype with a symbology all its own.

"The mind is its own place
And can make a heaven of hell
Or a hell of heaven...
What matter where if I still be the same."

I believe that the icons and the imagery found within the ritualism radiates with my psyche much more completely than any other philosophy. The images and symbols are very powerful in meditating on the state of my own inner self and they unlock deeper and deeper levels of my personal beliefs. It is very difficult to relate...but I also feel I dont have to elaborate too deeply as the quest for self revelation is quite personal. If the questions are posed, I will openly muse upon them.
 

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Gibberish said:
Most Christians go on faith that Jesus existed and did what he did, rather then on scientific fact. Which makes that research pointless towards that demographic. I do wait for someone to post in favor of the bible with a higher knowledge on the bibles historical backing then I have.

Aryan, you might enjoy reading "Where God Was Born" by Bruce Feiler.
The test you require is not logical IMO. You pose two alternatives -- "faith" or "scientific fact." I am not sure exactly what you mean by scientific fact, however, if that level of proof requires hard tangible evidence of the existance of Jesus, a lot of history cannot be established. The fact that there is no "scientific proof" does not mean that Jesus did not exist.

There is, however, evidence that Jesus did exist. We have the account of his existence in the Bible. And the fact of the spread of Christianity ... it seems doubtful that a religion based on the existance of someone could survive and prosper if the person never existed. Possible, but unlikely, IMO.

"Scientific proof"? No. but there is a basis for believing Jesus existed beyond pure faith or the suggestion He was just myth.
 

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jallman said:
Not at all actually. I believe the trinity is an archetype symbolising male power and spirituality, just like the Hecate goddess image symbolizes the female spirituality and power. Heaven and hell, I believe are states of mind inflicted by the psyche in response to self realization of the balance of something akin to karma.

I would put forth a quote from paradise lost....it is a quote by satan, another powerful archetype with a symbology all its own.

"The mind is its own place
And can make a heaven of hell
Or a hell of heaven...
What matter where if I still be the same."

I believe that the icons and the imagery found within the ritualism radiates with my psyche much more completely than any other philosophy. The images and symbols are very powerful in meditating on the state of my own inner self and they unlock deeper and deeper levels of my personal beliefs. It is very difficult to relate...but I also feel I dont have to elaborate too deeply as the quest for self revelation is quite personal. If the questions are posed, I will openly muse upon them.
I'm just kind of confused then. How exactly do you consider yourself Catholic if you don't believe in God?
 

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George_Washington said:
I'm just kind of confused then. How exactly do you consider yourself Catholic if you don't believe in God?
I never said I dont believe in the god figure. I believe in the divine aspect of reality...the aspect which brings an order and reason to an ordered and well concieved world. I just dont believe in a white bearded man who sits in the sky and watches over you every second of your life.
 

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jallman said:
I never said I dont believe in the god figure. I believe in the divine aspect of reality...the aspect which brings an order and reason to an ordered and well concieved world. I just dont believe in a white bearded man who sits in the sky and watches over you every second of your life.
Yeah I don't think God actually is a white bearded old man. I do believe he can take whatever form he chooses but his true form might be inconceivable for us to imagine here on Earth.
 

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George_Washington said:
Yeah I don't think God actually is a white bearded old man. I do believe he can take whatever form he chooses but his true form might be inconceivable for us to imagine here on Earth.
Exactly. The ideal and true face of the divinity figure, while perhaps being pre programmed into our very psyche, is too much to comprehend. The vast conception of the omniscient and omni benevolent is near polar extreme to our finite and egocentric minds. We must, as individuals, find symbolic manifestations of that supreme glorious state, and the icons and symbols of catholicism just resonate with me deeply. I cannot describe why, except to say that the overtones of sacrifice, majesty, and orderliness to the dogma makes me feel...complete and secure when I meditate upon them. There is something about being in a cathedral that inspires a total surrender of the ego and brings a calm peace and security to the spirit. I am not even sure if that makes sense, but it is the best explanation that I can offer.
 
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The test you require is not logical IMO. You pose two alternatives -- "faith" or "scientific fact." I am not sure exactly what you mean by scientific fact, however, if that level of proof requires hard tangible evidence of the existance of Jesus, a lot of history cannot be established. The fact that there is no "scientific proof" does not mean that Jesus did not exist.

True but the onus is surely placed upon the converter to establish to the unconverted that jesus is the saviour,both man and yet god incarnate.
The first step must be to establish his historical credentions before you can attempt to convince anyone of his divine atributes and mission?
There is no "historical" evidence outside of the New Testament written well after the life and death of jesus and related by people who did NOT witness the events that they describe.He is little more than a story book character but the problem is that the church has condemned people to death in the name of that character and destroyed indigenous cultures all over the world.

There is, however, evidence that Jesus did exist. We have the account of his existence in the Bible. And the fact of the spread of Christianity ... it seems doubtful that a religion based on the existance of someone could survive and prosper if the person never existed. Possible, but unlikely, IMO.

See my comments above.The spread ofa religion is no evidence of its veracity any more than marxism was in the USSR.A lot of people sharing a common belief does not make that belief any more true.

"Scientific proof"? No. but there is a basis for believing Jesus existed beyond pure faith or the suggestion He was just myth.[/QUOTE]

Do you accept that the church temporal was in error over the way in which it propagated its faith and condemned millions to death over the words of a god of "love"?
 

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Aryan Imperium said:
Do you accept that the church temporal was in error over the way in which it propagated its faith and condemned millions to death over the words of a god of "love"?
This coming from a man that idolizes a guy that put millions of Jews to death. Makes a lot sense...sure...
 

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Aryan Imperium said:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
...
I invite people to study the above mentioned site with an open mind and then contribute thoughtful posts on this thread.
Did a historical Jesus exist?
by Jim Walker

... the evidence the Christians present us cannot serve as justification for reliable evidence for a historical Jesus.
First, what do the words “justification for reliable evidence” describe? Since that expression does not make any sense to me, maybe it is with something like this that we can clarify Mr. Walker’s above statement just a bit:
“... the evidence the Christians present us cannot [reliably] serve as ... evidence for [an] historical Jesus.”

Agreed. Both the Jewish and Christian bibles are mostly hearsay – few, if any, first-hand accounts – and with much of their contents being extremely difficult (or even impossible?) to historically substantiate, confirm or corroborate.

However, the overall evidence of Christianity – its centuries of existence, at the very least – certainly can indicate a quiet and sane investigation as to whether an historical “Jesus” – a Scriptural Messiah – ever was, is or will be ... and personally, it is through the debunking of sectarian religion, especially Christianity, that I have become quite convinced: Yes.

All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people ... there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus reveal that [their] authors wrote well after the life of the alleged ... (Jim Walker)
So? Would the fact that no contemporary writing might ever mention me prove that I had never existed? The above only proves that not a single contemporary writing mentions “Jesus” – it does not prove “no ‘Jesus’”.

All documents about Jesus ... from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. (Jim Walker)
Again: That does not prove “no ‘Jesus’”. But beyond that, is it truly possible that all mythical, allegorical or even fraudulent writings are the products of mere imaginations?

Hearsay provides no proof or good evidence ...
(Hearsay does not work as evidence ...)
... therefore, we should dismiss it. (Jim Walker)
Whoa! Even mere hearsay can at least imply or point toward good reason for some conscientious and unbiased investigation, can it not? The fact that a court of law will not convict on mere hearsay does not stop the investigator or detective from beginning right there (with mere hearsay), if necessary, now does it?

We know that mythology can arise out of no good information whatsoever. (Jim Walker)
Actually, I believe it would be more precise to say most mythology arises from no-good misunderstandings or even intentional misrepresentations of otherwise-accurate information. Legends and folklore of all kinds exist as derivatives of at least some things that were actual facts before being “spun” into whatever.

We live in a world where many people believe in demons, UFOs, ghosts, or monsters, and an innumerable number of fantasies believed as fact ...
... and the same reasoning must go against the claims of [an] historical Jesus or any other historical person. (Jim Walker)
In my own opinion, Mr. Walker suffers from the same kind of dilemma he presumes to address:

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation" (author unknown).

So then, is it possible to in any way historically substantiate, confirm and/or corroborate anything whatsoever within the mere hearsay of “the bible”? Personally, I have spent the past few weeks reading several of these books: http://www.grahamphillips.net/ .

Is anyone else here familiar with the works of Graham Phillips?

Shabbat Shalom.
 

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The life of Christ is a myth.

The story of the myth of Christ is a metaphor for your own life, you as an eternal soul.

Christ was born of a virgin.

You too were "born of a virgin."

Christ has GOD as a father.

You too have "GOD as a father."

For you, like Christ, originate out of pure, immutable, eternal GOD.

God was "personified" by the Hebrews, just as GOD was personified by the Greeks in their Pantheon.

And this serves as a good metaphor which is best understood if not taken to mean a "literal being;" rather, the eternal life force which animates the universe, and may be understood as an eternal origin with infinite individualities.

It defies mathematics.

It is best not to try to understand it (GOD) in terms of mathematics otherwise you may end up developing innumerable metaphors and symbols in order to try to explain it.

It (GOD) is beyond explanation in mathematical terms.

It is however, your true origin.


Mathew 5: 48

Be ye (you) therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect.


Mathew 23: 9

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your father which is in heaven.


John 3: 6

That which is born of the flesh is flesh.
That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.


Egyptian Doctrine of Eternal Life (Vth Dynasty)

Soul to Heaven, body to earth.
 
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So? Would the fact that no contemporary writing might ever mention me prove that I had never existed? The above only proves that not a single contemporary writing mentions “Jesus” – it does not prove “no ‘Jesus’”.
The problem is that with as "important" as jesus was, someone should have written something about him fromthe time, not well after the fact. Also, many of the "later" sources are unreliable. The Bible isn't exactly reliable, and Josephus' account I read was thought to be forged.
 

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Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
The problem is that with as "important" as jesus was, someone should have written something about him fromthe time, not well after the fact.
Not neccessarily because you're not taking into account the time. Hardly anybody could read or write back then. People didn't look at written accounts like we do. They preferred to pass things down through oral traditions.
 

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Not neccessarily because you're not taking into account the time. Hardly anybody could read or write back then. People didn't look at written accounts like we do. They preferred to pass things down through oral traditions.
You're kidding, right? There were many nations with significant quantities of learned men for centuries. Not one of them could write anything on the man? Was jesus unable to write too? If so few could read, how did any legal systems work. They had to be codified. If no one could read them, how could they follow them?
 

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Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
You're kidding, right? There were many nations with significant quantities of learned men for centuries. Not one of them could write anything on the man? Was jesus unable to write too? If so few could read, how did any legal systems work. They had to be codified. If no one could read them, how could they follow them?
The vast majority of people couldn't read or write-Yes, there were a few exceptions.
 

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Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
The problem is that with as "important" as jesus was, someone should have written something about him from the time ...
Just speculation here, but maybe someone did and we simply do not have a copy, or maybe nobody did because they all thought "the end" was too close to bother ...
 
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