January Gun Sales Set Yet Another Record

[BretJ]

Let's have some more attacks resulting in multiple people killed or injured by guns! It helps raise the amount of guns sold AND raises the stock price of gun manufacturers!

Dudes adding a 3rd, 4th, and 5th (or more) firearm to their collection will makes everyone safer!

Unless you suspend the laws of physics regarding time and space, how does owning 3,4,5,10 guns make anyone less safe?

 

[BretJ]

Really? There are plenty of pawn shops here in Florida that sell with no background checks and then there are the gun shows and Craigs list ads too.

If you know this as a fact and you have not reported them to law enforcement, you are even more a dirtbag than those that sell guns illegally. Turn them in or you have even less credibility as a gun "safety" advocate than you do now.

 

[blackjack50]

The logic is ridiculous...when you get to invent my argument for me. I never said you purchasing new firearms makes me less safe. I have said that gun ownership is positively correlated with an increased risk of homicide or suicide to the owner or those in the owner's home.

As long as you recognize and accept that risk, more power to you.

Correlation does not equal causation...PERIOD.

Additionally...there are 45 million firearms owners. You are telling me there are MILLIONS of firearms related accidents and deaths a year? It seems to me that is...well..BS.

 

[blackjack50]

You just replied to a post where I discuss a meta-study from a peer reviewed journal and you still think it is "anecdotal?" You apparently also need a refresher on the definition.

Yes. It IS anecdotal. Do you understand why? Because the overwhelming majority of us never have an issue. Making the "anecdotal evidence" being the ones who go AGAINST the grain. The ones who are not even remotely a minority and are closer to a micro minority. Meaning there results that showed where individuals had accidents or did something bad with a gun...isn't the majority. Period. as before: correlation is not causation. And how is it even correlation when a majority never have a problem? An extreme majority.

 

[blackjack50]

Really? There are plenty of pawn shops here in Florida that sell with no background checks and then there are the gun shows and Craigs list ads too.

That is really against the law for a pawn shop. Report them. And Craig's list?

 

[MrT]

Correlation does not equal causation...PERIOD.

Thanks for the education on a basic statistical definition!

Additionally...there are 45 million firearms owners. You are telling me there are MILLIONS of firearms related accidents and deaths a year? It seems to me that is...well..BS.

And it would be BS...because it is a completely fabricated version of my argument.

 

[MrT]

Yes. It IS anecdotal. Do you understand why? Because the overwhelming majority of us never have an issue. Making the "anecdotal evidence" being the ones who go AGAINST the grain. The ones who are not even remotely a minority and are closer to a micro minority. Meaning there results that showed where individuals had accidents or did something bad with a gun...isn't the majority. Period. as before: correlation is not causation. And how is it even correlation when a majority never have a problem? An extreme majority.

*sighs*

But...

Just...

Do me a favor and go look up the definition of anecdotal.

 

[Port & Starboard]

The logic is ridiculous...when you get to invent my argument for me. I never said you purchasing new firearms makes me less safe. I have said that gun ownership is positively correlated with an increased risk of homicide or suicide to the owner or those in the owner's home.

As long as you recognize and accept that risk, more power to you.

Your logic is wrong. Guns do not make people more at risk for suicide, mental illness makes some people more at risk for suicide, and some people decide to use a gun for the purpose.

Responsible gun ownership doesn't lead to homicide either.......never has.....never will.

 

[MrT]

Your logic is wrong. Guns do not make people more at risk for suicide, mental illness makes some people more at risk for suicide, and some people decide to use a gun for the purpose.

Responsible gun ownership doesn't lead to homicide either.......never has.....never will.

The meta-study that I linked disagrees with you.

Think of it this way - the individuals who eventually decide to commit suicide often experience increased levels of anxiety, fear, depression, hopelessness, etc. Those same attributes might lead an individual to want to purchase a firearm for their own protection. The gun is not causing that person to commit suicide, that blame lies squarely with the depression. However, the overlapping of attributes would also explain why (at least in that situation) why there is a positive correlation between gun ownership and suicide.

Another very simple example would be the fact that suicide by gunshot has a pretty high rate of success. If that rate of success is just slightly higher than the other methods and if the person who attempts, but fails, does not try again - then that would also help to explain the positive correlation between gun ownership and suicide.

 

[blackjack50]

Thanks for the education on a basic statistical definition!



And it would be BS...because it is a completely fabricated version of my argument.

And again...it doesn't really MATTER that your argument is that having a gun puts you at a greater risk. The reason? You are talking about something that happens LESS than even 0.1% of the time. How is that an "increased risk?" How is that even "correlation?" It seems to me that my "risk" is nearly non existent on a STATISTICAL level.

As for my other post: I could just waive my gun around and fire off rounds and be fine then right? Statistically I'm fine. I am really poking fun at the idea that "anecdotal" evidence of individual experience and actions is somehow less important in determining the risk than a "correlation" that ignores that overwhelming majority of owners never experience a problem.

The individual determines the risk. Not the statistic. My favorite says on this is: 1% chance it is 100% raining.

 

[iguanaman]

Your logic is wrong. Guns do not make people more at risk for suicide, mental illness makes some people more at risk for suicide, and some people decide to use a gun for the purpose.

Responsible gun ownership doesn't lead to homicide either.......never has.....never will.

Keep telling yourself that. The problem is that when a gun is used for suicide it is successful in a much higher % than other methods attempted. So you have a lot of dead people that were suffering from a temporary problem that their gun just made permanent. Guns just aren't worth the risk for the tiny chance that you may use it to protect yourself. A gun in the home is far more likely to result in death or injury of yourself or your loved ones than to save them from harm. But you can roll the dice if you want.

 

[iguanaman]

And again...it doesn't really MATTER that your argument is that having a gun puts you at a greater risk. The reason? You are talking about something that happens LESS than even 0.1% of the time. How is that an "increased risk?" How is that even "correlation?" It seems to me that my "risk" is nearly non existent on a STATISTICAL level.

As for my other post: I could just waive my gun around and fire off rounds and be fine then right? Statistically I'm fine. I am really poking fun at the idea that "anecdotal" evidence of individual experience and actions is somehow less important in determining the risk than a "correlation" that ignores that overwhelming majority of owners never experience a problem.

The individual determines the risk. Not the statistic. My favorite says on this is: 1% chance it is 100% raining.

So your answer is that the statistics don't effect you? If you wre one of the parents who's teen committed suicide with their gun would you still say that the statistics aren't important?

A Special Note To Parents from The Jason Foundation:
Accessibility to firearms, particularly handguns, influences the rate of teen suicides. Handguns were used in nearly 70% of teen suicides in 1990, up 20% since 1970. A home with a handgun is almost ten times more likely to have a teen suicide than a home without. If you have a gun, please take every precaution when storing it.

--Firearms are the most common method of suicide by youth. This is true for both males and females, younger and older adolescents, and for all races (Kachur et al., 1995).

--The increase in the rate of youth suicide (and the number of deaths by suicide) over the past four decades is largely related to the use of firearms as a method (Boyd & Moscicki, 1986; CDC, 1986; Kachur et al., 1995).

--The most common location for the occurrence of firearm suicides by youth is the home (Brent et al., 1993).

--There is a positive association between the accessibility and availability of firearms in the home and the risk for youth suicide (Brent et al., 1993; Kellerman et al., 1992).

--The risk conferred by guns in the home is proportional to the accessibility (e.g., loaded and unsecured firearms) and the number of guns in the home (Brent et al., 1993; Kellerman et al., 1992).

--Guns in the home, particularly loaded guns, are associated with increased risk for suicide by youth, both with and without identifiable mental health problems or suicidal risk factors (Brent et al., 1993).

--If a gun is used to attempt suicide, a fatal outcome will result 78% to 90% of the time (Annest et al., 1995; Card, 1974)

--Public policy initiatives that restrict access to guns (especially handguns) are associated with a reduction of firearm suicide and suicide overall, especially among youth (Carrington et al., 1994; Loftin et al., 1991; Sloan et al., 1990).

PBS - The Silent Epidemic: Depression

 

[Port & Starboard]

Keep telling yourself that. The problem is that when a gun is used for suicide it is successful in a much higher % than other methods attempted. So you have a lot of dead people that were suffering from a temporary problem that their gun just made permanent. Guns just aren't worth the risk for the tiny chance that you may use it to protect yourself. A gun in the home is far more likely to result in death or injury of yourself or your loved ones than to save them from harm. But you can roll the dice if you want.

I don't need to tell myself anything. A pistol has saved my life twice. Not everyone lives in a fairly safe urban community, or a gated community. Some of us have to work in some very bad neighborhoods.

 

[iguanaman]

I don't need to tell myself anything. A pistol has saved my life twice. Not everyone lives in a fairly safe urban community, or a gated community. Some of us have to work in some very bad neighborhoods.

I hope your luck keeps holding out then. Most gun owners don't fare so well in confrontations and having a gun actually increases their chances of getting shot. If I were you I would seriously consider moving to a safer area.

In a first-of its-kind study, epidemiologists at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine found that, on average, guns did not protect those who possessed them from being shot in an assault. The study estimated that people with a gun were 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not possessing a gun.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090930121512.htm

 

[blackjack50]

So your answer is that the statistics don't effect you? If you wre one of the parents who's teen committed suicide with their gun would you still say that the statistics aren't important?



PBS - The Silent Epidemic: Depression

Yes. I would. Because I would feel ashamed I didn't pay close enough attention to my child. And I'm not saying they should. I am saying I would. Let me ask you an honest to god question here:

DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE that what OTHER PEOPLE DO with something determines what YOU will do with it?

(If you use your wrench as a hammer does that mean I will?)

 

[Port & Starboard]

The meta-study that I linked disagrees with you.

Think of it this way - the individuals who eventually decide to commit suicide often experience increased levels of anxiety, fear, depression, hopelessness, etc. Those same attributes might lead an individual to want to purchase a firearm for their own protection. The gun is not causing that person to commit suicide, that blame lies squarely with the depression. However, the overlapping of attributes would also explain why (at least in that situation) why there is a positive correlation between gun ownership and suicide.

Another very simple example would be the fact that suicide by gunshot has a pretty high rate of success. If that rate of success is just slightly higher than the other methods and if the person who attempts, but fails, does not try again - then that would also help to explain the positive correlation between gun ownership and suicide.

Look.... I know you are concerned about safety and a admire you for it. All responsible gun owners are concerned about safety as well, and we all take the necessary precautions. We never get to see the statistics of crimes prevented by firearms...do we. They are in very high numbers. Criminals, sick people, and negligent people get all the attention because blood sells in the media.

 

[Port & Starboard]

I hope your luck keeps holding out then. Most gun owners don't fare so well in confrontations and having a gun actually increases their chances of getting shot. If I were you I would seriously consider moving to a safer area.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090930121512.htm

I live in a nice neighborhood, but I am required as per contract with FNMA to work on properties in some bad places. I have years of basic small arms training from the Navy as a specials boats Op's engineer. I'm no Rambo.....just a working stiff who runs into squatters, crack heads, copper thieves, and drug dealers inside the properties I rehab.

 

[BretJ]

So your answer is that the statistics don't effect you? If you wre one of the parents who's teen committed suicide with their gun would you still say that the statistics aren't important?



PBS - The Silent Epidemic: Depression

120,000,000 gun owners are not responsible for someone else's weak genes. No more than 120,000,000 beer drinkers are responsible for a drunken date rape. Suicides and homicide by firearms do not even represent the reality of 1% of all gun owners. So no, the statistics represent such a small number, it is irrelevant to the 99.999% of the gun owning population.
If you carry the weak gene that would cause you to want to off yourself or beat your kid when drunk, then by all means, don't own a gun or consume alcohol. But do not assume everyone else has your poor genetics.

 

[blackjack50]

120,000,000 gun owners are not responsible for someone else's weak genes. No more than 120,000,000 beer drinkers are responsible for a drunken date rape. Suicides and homicide by firearms do not even represent the reality of 1% of all gun owners. So no, the statistics represent such a small number, it is irrelevant to the 99.999% of the gun owning population.
If you carry the weak gene that would cause you to want to off yourself or beat your kid when drunk, then by all means, don't own a gun or consume alcohol. But do not assume everyone else has your poor genetics.

It isn't really fair to call it a weakness. It isn't weak to contract a disease/disorder.

 

[jaeger19]

Let's have some more attacks resulting in multiple people killed or injured by guns! It helps raise the amount of guns sold AND raises the stock price of gun manufacturers!

Dudes adding a 3rd, 4th, and 5th (or more) firearm to their collection will makes everyone safer!

That's right.. .we should do what California did when it comes to firearms. And look how much safer it is. Why think of all the terrorists that could have been killed if law abiding citizens hadn't been prevented or discouraged from carrying a firearm.

 

[iguanaman]

120,000,000 gun owners are not responsible for someone else's weak genes. No more than 120,000,000 beer drinkers are responsible for a drunken date rape. Suicides and homicide by firearms do not even represent the reality of 1% of all gun owners. So no, the statistics represent such a small number, it is irrelevant to the 99.999% of the gun owning population.
If you carry the weak gene that would cause you to want to off yourself or beat your kid when drunk, then by all means, don't own a gun or consume alcohol. But do not assume everyone else has your poor genetics.

If those aren't "famous last words" I don't know what is. Please tell me that you don't have children or teenagers that can access your guns without your knowledge. I will feel much better and you won't become part of another statistic.

 

[jaeger19]

Did you really just use your anecdotal evidence to support that owning guns doesn't lead to accidents or intentional shootings?

How about a meta-study on this very topic that shows gun ownership IS positively associated with criminally intentional injuries by guns, accidental injuries by guns, and intentional self-inflicted injuries by guns?

The Accessibility of Firearms and Risk for Suicide and Homicide Victimization Among Household Members: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis | Annals of Internal Medicine

Actually the meta analysis does not show a causal link between gun ownership and criminal intentional injuries, accident injuries and suicide.

 

[jaeger19]

If those aren't "famous last words" I don't know what is. Please tell me that you don't have children or teenagers that can access your guns without your knowledge. I will feel much better and you won't become part of another statistic.

My children can access their guns without my knowledge. I could as a teenager access my firearms without my fathers knowledge as well.

 

[jaeger19]

The meta-study that I linked disagrees with you.

Think of it this way - the individuals who eventually decide to commit suicide often experience increased levels of anxiety, fear, depression, hopelessness, etc. Those same attributes might lead an individual to want to purchase a firearm for their own protection. The gun is not causing that person to commit suicide, that blame lies squarely with the depression. However, the overlapping of attributes would also explain why (at least in that situation) why there is a positive correlation between gun ownership and suicide.

Another very simple example would be the fact that suicide by gunshot has a pretty high rate of success. If that rate of success is just slightly higher than the other methods and if the person who attempts, but fails, does not try again - then that would also help to explain the positive correlation between gun ownership and suicide.

Actually the meta analysis DOES NOT disagree with him.

 

[jaeger19]

Keep telling yourself that. The problem is that when a gun is used for suicide it is successful in a much higher % than other methods attempted. So you have a lot of dead people that were suffering from a temporary problem that their gun just made permanent. Guns just aren't worth the risk for the tiny chance that you may use it to protect yourself. A gun in the home is far more likely to result in death or injury of yourself or your loved ones than to save them from harm. But you can roll the dice if you want.

Statistically.. a pool is more likely to result in death or injury of yourself or your loved one that to save them from harm. but you can roll the dice if you want.

Sorry man.. but your appeals to emotion simply don;t fly in the face of facts.