It Doesn't Matter When Life Begins

[Southern Belle]

I apologize for snapping, I'm sorry. It just seemed like you were attacking me directly. But if you read the thread I did post my views on the stuff you mentioned.

Why is it that tolerance is more important then love to some people? Tolerance sounds like such a cold word. Tolerance actually sounds like "let them do whatever they like and no one needs to care or worry" Love means "care for them no matter what happens" I think I'd rather have the latter.

 

[Saboteur]

You seem so bitter, Saboteur. I don't know about just Tolerating the person next to you, I believe in Loving them.

That's something I've noticed in a lot of liberals. They always preach tolerance for other people. I just can't remember the last time I've seen a progressive-type mention Love, and that's the honest truth.

I'm sorry to call you bitter, but I don't appreciate being called a drunk. Not very Tolerant of you, is it?

I'll probably regret this post later though...

Edit: I've just suddenly realized, Sab, that you haven't read past the first post...:shock: I've already adressed my opinion on a lot of the stuff you mention in this thread.

I'm kind of in a snappy mood right now...

I didn't call you a drunk I said you may have possibly been drunk and there's nothing wrong with drinking or being drunk.

Anyway, yes very bitter here. Mostly because I am surrounded by people living their lives like it doesn't end after death and that it doesn't matter how crappy their life is or if they die in a war because they think they're going to a mystical land called heaven.

I'd like to love my neighbor too, but it's obvious that humans can't love everybody... do you love Osama bin Laden?

 

[Southern Belle]

I didn't call you a drunk I said you may have possibly been drunk and there's nothing wrong with drinking or being drunk.

Anyway, yes very bitter here. Mostly because I am surrounded by people living their lives like it doesn't end after death and that it doesn't matter how crappy their life is or if they die in a war because they think they're going to a mystical land called heaven.

I'd like to love my neighbor too, but it's obvious that humans can't love everybody... do you love Osama bin Laden?

I don't think so, but I am imperfect. It's very hard to explain my idea of what I think loving other people means. It's something I feel but can't type. Just being honest, I'm not just gonna make up an easy answer...

 

[Saboteur]

I don't think so, but I am imperfect. It's very hard to explain my idea of what I think loving other people means. It's something I feel but can't type. Just being honest, I'm not just gonna make up an easy answer...

I get it, it's the same way with how I feel life and death works.

 

[Bodi]

I didn't call you a drunk I said you may have possibly been drunk and there's nothing wrong with drinking or being drunk.

Anyway, yes very bitter here. Mostly because I am surrounded by people living their lives like it doesn't end after death and that it doesn't matter how crappy their life is or if they die in a war because they think they're going to a mystical land called heaven.

I'd like to love my neighbor too, but it's obvious that humans can't love everybody... do you love Osama bin Laden?

It is not about "love", It is about "pity".

The saying "love thy neighbor" is about the Good Samaritan who felt pity on the Jew that was dying after being attacked or something when others just passed him by.

pit·y Audio Help /ˈpɪti/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pit-ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural pit·ies, verb, pit·ied, pit·y·ing.
–noun 1. sympathetic or kindly sorrow evoked by the suffering, distress, or misfortune of another, often leading one to give relief or aid or to show mercy: to feel pity for astarving child.
2. a cause or reason for pity, sorrow, or regret: What a pity you could not go!
–verb (used with object) 3. to feel pity or compassion for; be sorry for; commiserate with.
–verb (used without object) 4. to have compassion; feel pity.
—Idiom5. have or take pity. to show mercy or compassion.

I feel pity for OBL, to be honest. I would hvae him executed for what he has done in a second, in fact, I would do it myself... but that does not negate the pity I feel for him or the sorrow I feel regarding his suffering.

 

[scourge99]

Scourge's Cliff Notes: The arguments against abortion and a quick refutation of each

This list is a brief summary of many of the arguments against abortion. This list is by no means comprehensive as many of these arguments have great complexity and many details. Some of the sections overlap in their discussion. Feel free to respond if you wish clarification or disagreement with any argument or refutation presented.

* Argument 1: Conception - Once a human is conceived it should not be terminated.

Conception is a scientific term designated to specify an event. Conception is a process that science deems is the beginning of a life form. The qualities of this event shall NOT be confused. It is a scientific description so that confusion does not ensue when discussing biological events. Nowhere is such an artificial construct specified anywhere in the Bible or any other religion as special. Conception is deemed special by certain theologists for NO VALID REASON other than weakly substantiated interpretation of vague scriptures.

* Argument 2: Religion - My religion says abortion is wrong so it must be.

This is simple to refute. Religions can NOT prove that their ideals and beliefs are objectively true. Some theologians have claimed revelation and thus deemed that conception is special. How conveniently absurd to think God has suddenly granted humans divine insight from of all things testimony of a supposed prophet or leader. Even if such were believed true it by no means creates a standard by which all men can reach the same conclusion. It merely establishes dogma that further divides the religious from those who establish their ideals from reality.

*Argument 3: Potential - Whatever has the potential to become a person should have rights.

Many people believe conception is the moment in which a human is special because it has a known potential to develop thinking and thus is a potential person. However, in the same regards, a sperm and an egg also have the same potential. To add to this absurdity we should also include the molecules that will make up eggs and sperm because these are also part of every persons past and have potential too. Where does this absurdity end?? It doesn't! Thats just one reason why the argument based on POTENTIAL is absurd. How is it consistent that we draw the line at conception and not at sperm and egg, or nutrients and molecules that will become sperm and eggs and so on and so forth?

Perhaps some will argue that a sperm and an egg have less potential than an embryo. How much less potential? 50% less potential? What excuse of a percentage is acceptable for termination then? Where does one draw the obscure line? More importantly eggs and sperm have potential to become a human, shouldn't that be the only thing that matters?

*Argument 4: Right to life - All humans are deserving of rights.

The right to life is a complex discussion. For the philosophically inept it is much more simple just to make broad generalizations that all humans have an equal right to life. However, this simply isn't so. There are many examples in which the right to life is considered void. Self defense is one such example. Another example is the brain dead.

Some will claim that that self defense is wrong or that causing the death of the brain dead is wrong but such assertions have no basis in any realm of a philosophy that does not have an equally plausible contradiction. That is, such convictions are merely opinion no matter how one looks at it. This leaves humans in a precarious situation. Shall we deny the right to life for some people/beings even though such a belief is an opinion or are there exceptions even though such beliefs are also simply an opinion? There is no clear answer.

It is NOT simply the fact that we are human that we are given rights. It is that we live in a social society that we have rights. Rights are established by societies alone and societies alone protect and uphold the rights of others.

In other words, rights wouldn't exist if we didn't live in groups because there would be no one to violate such rights or uphold these rights. The reasoning for why such rights have been established is a very deep and complex discussion. Nonetheless, the key point remains that rights are a human invention. Nothing more. Nothing less.

*Argument 5: Universally Immoral - there exists objective universal ethics and abortion is forbidden by such.

For much of history infanticide or abortions have been the norm in many civilizations. Even today in certain nomadic African tribes it is the duty for the mother to smother her newborn child if it contains deformities. Such seems barbaric and cruel to us but it is a necessity in such places were the burden of such a child is a matter of life and death for the family and the mother. Some cultures go as so far as to not even name a child for a certain period of time and only then is it considered equal. There are many more such examples throughout history and by no means were such practices rare. This by no means justifies infanticide and abortion but it certainly puts a very large dent in the idea of some type of universal objective morality. Such notions have virtuous intent but simply lack any substantive proof. Once again, a religion can claim moral supremacy but this does nothing more than further divide such people from others because religious dogma is hardly a convincing argument for the non-believer.

*Argument 6: Disaster Avoidance

This has become a very popular argument against abortion. The argument is based on the assumption that we do not know when human life becomes valuable therefore we should not risk destroying human life because we might be wrong. This seems like a very strong argument from a distance but when we examine the details of such an argument the absurdity and infinite contradictions of such a belief become apparent.

To explain it simply, there are many things in the universe which we are unsure of. There are many plausible arguments for and against many of the things we do. If we were to apply the philosophy of disaster avoidance to all such things we would find ourselves in endless contradiction. For example, certain types of Buddhists believe ALL life is precious and even go so far as to limit bathing and washing in order to minimize the death of microscopic organisms. What if they are right? What if every time you bathe or mow your lawn you are committing genocide of infinite proportions? By this philosophy we shouldn't do many of the things because the Buddhists may be right. Now try applying all the plausible arguments from all religions and walks of philosophy and you will soon find yourself overburdened and in an impossible deadlock of contradictory beliefs all in the name of disaster avoidance. Good luck living your life.

*Argument 7: Humans are special - Humans are special so they should not be aborted.

This is by far one of the most ridiculously egotistical arguments. The belief that humans, specifically that is, people who contain human-like DNA are privileged to special rights. Ridiculous. If we were to come across some alien civilization would would believe them incapable of possessing rights? What if a particular human contained significantly altered DNA? Would such a person no longer have rights? I think not. It is apparent that DNA is a poor and inconsistent standard for rights.

 

[Felicity]

You ever seen the Wizard of Oz?

 

[Hikertrash]

Hmm, well, it's it counted as a murder if someone kills a pregnant woman's baby, and a double murder if both are killed? Or am I mistaken. .

It's double murder in some states, but not all. However, abortion is legal. It's the mothers choice whether to abort or not.

PS Started reading from the top, sorry if this has been answered.

 

[Bodi]

It's double murder in some states, but not all. However, abortion is legal. It's the mothers choice whether to abort or not.

PS Started reading from the top, sorry if this has been answered.

Good Point.