It Doesn't Matter When Life Begins

[Southern Belle]

So you, like many other pro-lifers, determine the worth of the unborn by the circumstances surrounding its conception? If the mother was raped, it's okay to murder an innocent baby, but if she had consentual sex suddenly the unborn is some poor innocent person that must be protected at all costs.

I'd just like to say, not quite. The product of the crime is still a human, and some women do give birth to them. But if she absolutely feels she can't, she shouldn't have to. It's very sad, yes, nobody wins in that senario. But not giving her a choice (WHEN IT WASN'T HER CHOICE TO DO IT) would be downright inhumane because of the trama and violence involved.

There is a difference.

 

[rivrrat]

I'd just like to say, not quite. The product of the crime is still a human, and some women do give birth to them. But if she absolutely feels she can't, she shouldn't have to. It's very sad, yes, nobody wins in that senario. But not giving her a choice (WHEN IT WASN'T HER CHOICE TO DO IT) would be downright inhumane because of the trama and violence involved.

There is a difference.

There is no difference whatsoever to the life in the womb. Either it's worth protecting, or it's not. The way it was conceived is irrelevant to it's worth and irrelevant to whether or not it should be allowed to live.

The ONLY difference in the two scenarios is in one situation you feel sympathy for the woman, but in another you do not. This only serves to distract from the real issue which is the life in the womb. Your sympathy for the woman (or lack thereof) does not change what she is carrying.

 

[Southern Belle]

There is no difference whatsoever to the life in the womb. Either it's worth protecting, or it's not. The way it was conceived is irrelevant to it's worth and irrelevant to whether or not it should be allowed to live.

The ONLY difference in the two scenarios is in one situation you feel sympathy for the woman, but in another you do not. This only serves to distract from the real issue which is the life in the womb. Your sympathy for the woman (or lack thereof) does not change what she is carrying.

Okay, I concede this point to you, because I can't come up with a reply other than yes that's why. I think it would be wonderful if they could all give birth but I don't think anyone has the heart to force them in that circumstance, I know I sure don't. It is a terrible, terrible ordeal to even think about. But I can't counter what you said, so I admit defeat. ^^

 

[rivrrat]

Okay, I concede this point to you, because I can't come up with a reply other than yes that's why. I think it would be wonderful if they could all give birth but I don't think anyone has the heart to force them in that circumstance, I know I sure don't. It is a terrible, terrible ordeal to even think about. But I can't counter what you said, so I admit defeat. ^^

It's not a matter of "defeat" or winning or whatever. It's a matter of understanding where your opinion is stemming from. If one believes that abortion should be allowed only in cases of rape, then one's anti-choice stance does not rest on protecting life, but instead on whether or not the woman should be punished for having sex. This flies directly in the face of the whole "life is sacred" argument.

Just food for thought, that's all.

 

[Doc Howl]

I don't mean that a man can just grab a woman off the street and make her have a baby. That would be horrible, and THAT'S what women finally got away from. But, if they are both willingly messing around one day and she gets pregnant and he wants it, yes, I think the right thing to do is to give it to him, because she knew the consequences, and she chose to accept them.

Okay, I can see that. She has the kid aborted, and ships him the fetus.

It's win-win.

 

[talloulou]

I really don't see how people can amuse themselves with crass talk of taking human lives.

 

[1069]

I really don't see how people can amuse themselves with crass talk of taking human lives.

Because they aren't human lives.
They're nothing to us.

 

[Bodi]

Actually, try putting heroine in your sovereign body and see if the government doesn't have something to say.

Bad analogy. Heroine is illegal before it enters a womans body, a penis is not.

 

[Bodi]

Because they aren't human lives.
They're nothing to us.

Is it alive? Yes.
Is it human? Yes.

Hmmmm.... sure sounds like "human lives" was the appropriate, logical and correct term after all.

 

[Felicity]

Okay, I concede this point to you, because I can't come up with a reply other than yes that's why. I think it would be wonderful if they could all give birth but I don't think anyone has the heart to force them in that circumstance, I know I sure don't. It is a terrible, terrible ordeal to even think about. But I can't counter what you said, so I admit defeat. ^^

The answer you want is that compassion and mercy is not necessarily supporting ANYTHING a person wants or confirming them in choices that cause damage perhaps to themselves, definitely to others. Compassion and mercy is supporting others in their difficulties and attempting to make circumstances such that the fear they have of what the future holds as a result of their circumstances is alleviated.

 

[Felicity]

Also BTW, some people don't think it's all that easy to not have sex.

What's "easy" is your standard? :roll:

 

[talloulou]

Because they aren't human lives.
They're nothing to us.

They are living human organisms and wishing it weren't so doesn't change reality. They may be living human organisms who are so very young and barely formed that you don't consider them of any worth or value but they remain living humans nevertheless till someone terminates them.

 

[Southern Belle]

It's not a matter of "defeat" or winning or whatever. It's a matter of understanding where your opinion is stemming from. If one believes that abortion should be allowed only in cases of rape, then one's anti-choice stance does not rest on protecting life, but instead on whether or not the woman should be punished for having sex. This flies directly in the face of the whole "life is sacred" argument.

Just food for thought, that's all.

Ahh, yes, I understand. I just am completely unsure on what's right in this issue, and just hope that God would have mercy on a woman who went through that and made the wrong choice. I do think it's right for them to have it, but if they absolutely can't I hope they'd recieve mercy...

 

[1069]

Bad analogy. Heroine is illegal before it enters a womans body, a penis is not.

No 'e' on heroin.
Not that kind, anyway.

 

[Southern Belle]

The answer you want is that compassion and mercy is not necessarily supporting ANYTHING a person wants or confirming them in choices that cause damage perhaps to themselves, definitely to others. Compassion and mercy is supporting others in their difficulties and attempting to make circumstances such that the fear they have of what the future holds as a result of their circumstances is alleviated.

Oh yes, thank you.

I can't say that in my own words, lol, but that's what I was thinking.

 

[eternalfates]

So you, like many other pro-lifers, determine the worth of the unborn by the circumstances surrounding its conception? If the mother was raped, it's okay to murder an innocent baby, but if she had consentual sex suddenly the unborn is some poor innocent person that must be protected at all costs.

No, I don't personally see a difference in worth, but I do not pretend to have a magic line that you can impose on every situation to determine what is right and wrong. There is some matter of evaluating on a case by case basis as nothing is always right. Do I want a Mother pregnant with a tubal pregnancy to be forced to carry the baby even though there is next to nil chance that the baby will even go to term, but a much greater chance that she could die as well? No, I don't think I could force somebody into that situation though it is a difficult moral dilemna. So, yes the circumstances do have a bearing. Do I believe a rape victim should carry the baby to birth, yes I do. I do not pretend, however to know that this is always best for the mother. Like I said, I understand the argument in that situation. Those cases are tragic all the way around.

How is having an abortion NOT dealing with the consequences? If I choose to do something and get ill or injured, I seek medical treatment. I don't just "live with the consequences" by way of not seeking treatment. Implying that I should is implying that I must be "punished" for choosing the action I did, and therefore must suffer. Which translates into: Punish the woman for daring to have sex for pleasure.

Your example is flawed in that you getting sick has little to do with your actions. However, technically, you are correct. The consequences are dealt with the same way a baby is killed for interrupting somebodies game. I mean, you are of the opinion that a baby is an illness that needs to be treated? Yes, you should have to bear the punishment for your mistake. As for punishing the woman only? I'm all for equality. He should pay for the care of the child or something that equally punishes his improper conduct.

Let me clear this up in saying that I am not an angel and without sin in this area. I became a father out of wedlock, but I married the woman. Luckily, we were of the same mind. So, I know the world is not perfect and people won't stop having sex, but they should not be able to kill the baby so they don't have the weight of pregnancy.

 

[eternalfates]

Ahh, yes, I understand. I just am completely unsure on what's right in this issue, and just hope that God would have mercy on a woman who went through that and made the wrong choice. I do think it's right for them to have it, but if they absolutely can't I hope they'd recieve mercy...

I completely agree. As I believe what is right for me is not always right for somebody else and God commands differently of each of us [In the context that it does not go against his written WORD], I also know that we all go through different trials for different reasons. Morality is hard because the only truth is beyond our imperfect minds. We cannot be right in all things, but I believe in mercy and compassion for all people, even those who don't believe that Life and the protection of personhood begins at conception.

 

[Bodi]

No 'e' on heroin.
Not that kind, anyway.

I like my heroines with heroin. My bad.

On a side note, Are you avoiding a second issue here Ten?

 

[1069]

I like my heroines with heroin. My bad.

On a side note, Are you avoiding a second issue here Ten?

What issue might that be?
Oh, you mean abortion?
I dip my toe in every once in awhile, when I feel my input is relevant.
Lately, I don't see much need.
Me and the same old three or four people have been debating the same old issues for years now. We've gone around in circles so many times we've worn a groove in the rug.
And still, abortion's legal, and will remain so.
I guess I don't feel much like wasting time anymore trying to convince the few die-hard dissidents that this is as it should be. I find that lately I really don't care much whether they like it or not.

 

[Felicity]

And still, abortion's legal, and will remain so..

For the person that says this about a man of 72:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057711903-post80.html



I offer two words:

Stevens, 88

 

[Bodi]

It really doesn't matter whether life begins at conception or when you take your first breath. It's really a waste of time to even argue about that, because only God actually knows anyway.

Either way, you are not supposed to abort unborn babies, period. Yes you aren't supposed to, but people do it anyway. But if the baby becomes alive with its first breath, that means that if you kill it in the womb, it's probably NOT waiting in heaven to say "It's OK, Mommy, I understand why you did it."

I know people who have abortions sometimes tell themselves that to make them feel better, but I think that if there is no life in the womb, then that fetus - that forming person - is destroyed from existance. Or maybe they are in heaven. But my point is, there's a 50% chance either way, and since we don't know, we shouldn't kill them unless you REALLY want them gone, because that just might be what happens to them.

I know what you're probably gonna say, what about all the "people" lost in the cycle? Well, I know what you mean, but a woman can only have 1 pregnancy every 9 months, that's how we were made. But when we invite a baby to be born inside of us - yes, that's basically what's happening - it becomes our responsibility, and it's not just about the woman anymore.

If you don't want a baby inside you you know how to not have one. Just like if you don't want your lungs filled with smoke you don't smoke. Although, yes you can use birth control if you feel like it, which has it's own serious side effects which make it pretty dumb to take. But if you STILL get pregnant, you have an obligation to give that baby life. Offer to be a surrogate, adopt it out if you must, but don't snuff it out. A baby is the most innocent being (Besides Jesus Christ of course) and you have no idea who it'll grow up to be. Possibly someone great.

Use your brains. Women fought forever to be respected and to NOT be property and to show men we had brains, but now what do we do now that we have all this freedom? Still be with men and then kill babies on top of it? (Not to mention get a bunch of deseases) I'm not saying don't do anything (although I'd like to say that, heh) but if you get pregnant your body ISN'T just yours anymore.

Although if there is something seriously wrong and you're gonna die if you give birth or something, I can understand abortion, but that should always be a last resort, and you should really consider the consequences.

I was speaking kind of generally, I know abortion is a hard thing that's usually not done lightly, but my belief is that it should be avoided at all costs. Those are my thoughts on abortion, I just wanted to share. ^^

A woman who aborts a baby for any reason other than a medical emergency or some extreme case like rape, should be banned from ever having a baby. Tie her tubes and punish her with imprisonment if she is ever found to have had a baby. Brand her with a Scarlett "A" and shave her head too. She should only be allowed to wear black for the constant state of mourning due to the killing of her unborn child as well.

 

[Southern Belle]

A woman who aborts a baby for any reason other than a medical emergency or some extreme case like rape, should be banned from ever having a baby. Tie her tubes and punish her with imprisonment if she is ever found to have had a baby. Brand her with a Scarlett "A" and shave her head too. She should only be allowed to wear black for the constant state of mourning due to the killing of her unborn child as well.

Sorry, but I honestly can't tell, is that your real opinion or are you being sarcastic at me like I meant that, or are you just being sarcastic in general?

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

It really doesn't matter whether life begins at conception or when you take your first breath. It's really a waste of time to even argue about that, because only God actually knows anyway.

Personally, I believe life begins when the child is named and presented to the public as the newest member of the family. Before that, it isn't morally relevant.

Either way, you are not supposed to abort unborn babies, period.

Actually... if it doesn't matter when life begins, then from what logic do you get the idea that we're "not supposed to" abort unborn babies? I don't really see any compelling arguments against it, except on the basis that the unborn child is alive and possesses human rights. (Well... an argument to the falling birth rate could apply, I suppose.)

But if the baby becomes alive with its first breath, that means that if you kill it in the womb, it's probably NOT waiting in heaven to say "It's OK, Mommy, I understand why you did it."

Of course not. If life begins with the first breath, then there's nothing in the womb to go to Heaven in the first place. Not like your mansion in Heaven is going to have creepy dead babies crawling across the ceiling and blaming you for their horrid state of unlife.

There's no soul without a name.

It's distasteful to go about the business of killing newly formed humans when it's well within our means to simply not create newly formed humans in the first place.

This, I will agree with. It's a disagreeable practice, and damned distasteful, even leaving aside the negative effects that it has on the health of the un-mother. As a society, we should really strive to do better-- do more to ensure that fewer children are conceived unwanted, and that more "unwanted" children are able to be given homes and names within strong, loving families.

On the other hand, when presented with the option of what is dishonorable-- burdening your family and/or being incapable of raising your child properly-- and what is merely distasteful, I would choose (and advise) the latter every time.

Religious belief should ALWAYS be completely irrelevant when it comes to justifying whether it is ok or not to kill someone.

Really? Where do you get your morals from? How do you decide whether or not it is okay to kill someone?

And if you do have some codified set of moral standards, how exactly are they better than the moral standards provided by your (or someone else's) religion?

 

[Saboteur]

It really doesn't matter whether life begins at conception or when you take your first breath. It's really a waste of time to even argue about that, because only God actually knows anyway.

There is no god.

Either way, you are not supposed to abort unborn babies, period. Yes you aren't supposed to, but people do it anyway.

Humans have done it since before recorded history. Which by the way was a lot longer time ago than 10,000 years.

But if the baby becomes alive with its first breath, that means that if you kill it in the womb, it's probably NOT waiting in heaven to say "It's OK, Mommy, I understand why you did it."

No god, no heaven. Sorry, it's the truth.

I know people who have abortions sometimes tell themselves that to make them feel better, but I think that if there is no life in the womb, then that fetus - that forming person - is destroyed from existance. Or maybe they are in heaven. But my point is, there's a 50% chance either way, and since we don't know, we shouldn't kill them unless you REALLY want them gone, because that just might be what happens to them.

There is a 100% chance that you won't be disappointed when you die, after all you'll be dead.

I know what you're probably gonna say, what about all the "people" lost in the cycle? Well, I know what you mean, but a woman can only have 1 pregnancy every 9 months, that's how we were made. But when we invite a baby to be born inside of us - yes, that's basically what's happening - it becomes our responsibility, and it's not just about the woman anymore.

Lots of women don't 'invite' a baby to be born inside of them. I don't know the current statistic but in this country alone 3 of 4 women are raped how many of them get pregnant I don't know. But you are right it's not about the woman anymore, it's about her rapist and his lasting memory of a violent act.

If you don't want a baby inside you you know how to not have one. Just like if you don't want your lungs filled with smoke you don't smoke. Although, yes you can use birth control if you feel like it, which has it's own serious side effects which make it pretty dumb to take. But if you STILL get pregnant, you have an obligation to give that baby life. Offer to be a surrogate, adopt it out if you must, but don't snuff it out. A baby is the most innocent being (Besides Jesus Christ of course) and you have no idea who it'll grow up to be. Possibly someone great.

Jesus was just a man who is now dead. But look at all those poor Iraqi civilians who have been killed in the hundreds of thousands because of a war and look at all those people killed in all the wars ever... Obviously there is no relevence in this point obviously not with religious or conservative people anyway.

Use your brains. Women fought forever to be respected and to NOT be property and to show men we had brains, but now what do we do now that we have all this freedom? Still be with men and then kill babies on top of it? (Not to mention get a bunch of deseases) I'm not saying don't do anything (although I'd like to say that, heh) but if you get pregnant your body ISN'T just yours anymore.

You obviously believe in fairy tales and possibly were drunk when you started this thread.

Although if there is something seriously wrong and you're gonna die if you give birth or something, I can understand abortion, but that should always be a last resort, and you should really consider the consequences.

What's that? Going to a hell that doesn't exist except here on earth for millions of starving children?

I was speaking kind of generally, I know abortion is a hard thing that's usually not done lightly, but my belief is that it should be avoided at all costs. Those are my thoughts on abortion, I just wanted to share. ^^

I don't like abortion at all. However I tolerate it in all of it's forms so that we are sure that women who need one can have one.

I'm sure you've heard that slogan "Freedom Isn't Free", well it's true. But no one ever points out what the price of freedom is. Most just use the slogan to justify war and the slaughter of millions of potentialy 'great' people.

But the true price of freedom is tolerance, tolerance of the person next to you while they tolerate you. That's the truth and if you don't like it well, you're just going to have to deal with it.

 

[Southern Belle]

You seem so bitter, Saboteur. I don't know about just Tolerating the person next to you, I believe in Loving them.

That's something I've noticed in a lot of liberals. They always preach tolerance for other people. I just can't remember the last time I've seen a progressive-type mention Love, and that's the honest truth.

I'm sorry to call you bitter, but I don't appreciate being called a drunk. Not very Tolerant of you, is it?

I'll probably regret this post later though...

Edit: I've just suddenly realized, Sab, that you haven't read past the first post...:shock: I've already adressed my opinion on a lot of the stuff you mention in this thread.

I'm kind of in a snappy mood right now...