It aint necessarily so - that big-government is bad

[joG]

Ad hominem

M r a ...

That is exactly it. Do not be belligerent and show that you are interested and not just trying to be difficult and you tend to get answers. At least, that is how it works, where I come from.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Balderdash!

You have no basis whatsoever for such a judgement. No study whatsoever justifies this above statement; a product of your own sentiment, ie., personal concoction.

Nice try, but wrong place. We are not as ignorant as you may think ...

Perhaps you aren't...but considering your sentiments on what I said, I won't be betting on it.

 

[Socrates1]

Is BigGov such a bad thing?

To see some remarks on this forum, one might be led to believe that BigGov was Evil Incarnate.

However, a study shows that such might be a very, very wrong conclusion: Bigger government makes for more satisfied people, international study finds. Note that this study was done by questioning nationals in the countries covered by the scope of the investigation.

Excerpt:



"Elsewhere is better?" No, that is not necessarily so either. It depends upon many aspects, first and foremost of which are Social Factors (acceptance of foreigners, language barriers, standard of living, etc.)

For instance, consider the above ranking. The Italians are some of the most happy people you can live with and amongst. Unfortunately the Italians cannot seem to find and elect competent politicians to run their economy "from the top down". In fact, when you look at the lack of linkage between Good Governance and Ethnicity, note in the above list how many Latin countries are ranked at the bottom, and how many nordic countries at the top. And yet, when it comes to retirement, the bottom ranked countries are some of the most popular destination for retirees from other European countries at the top of the list!

We cannot say, either, that the US is very high up the scale. In fact, the conclusion from that list is obvious: BigGovernance in the form of important Social Services provided and well-managed by government administrations in the EU countries are why the top-nations in the above listing are European. In fact, that is the reason, I submit, that the nordic countries of Europe have such a high-ranking.

OK, now let's all chew on that conclusion .... !

NB: Notice that the work, work, work nation of Japan, which makes true the adage, "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy".

Big government is needed by the left to tell them what size soda they can buy and to regulate every aspect of their lives because they are incapable of making sound choices ! :roll:

 

[jonny5]

Is BigGov such a bad thing?

To see some remarks on this forum, one might be led to believe that BigGov was Evil Incarnate.

However, a study shows that such might be a very, very wrong conclusion: Bigger government makes for more satisfied people, international study finds. Note that this study was done by questioning nationals in the countries covered by the scope of the investigation.

Excerpt:



"Elsewhere is better?" No, that is not necessarily so either. It depends upon many aspects, first and foremost of which are Social Factors (acceptance of foreigners, language barriers, standard of living, etc.)

For instance, consider the above ranking. The Italians are some of the most happy people you can live with and amongst. Unfortunately the Italians cannot seem to find and elect competent politicians to run their economy "from the top down". In fact, when you look at the lack of linkage between Good Governance and Ethnicity, note in the above list how many Latin countries are ranked at the bottom, and how many nordic countries at the top. And yet, when it comes to retirement, the bottom ranked countries are some of the most popular destination for retirees from other European countries at the top of the list!

We cannot say, either, that the US is very high up the scale. In fact, the conclusion from that list is obvious: BigGovernance in the form of important Social Services provided and well-managed by government administrations in the EU countries are why the top-nations in the above listing are European. In fact, that is the reason, I submit, that the nordic countries of Europe have such a high-ranking.

OK, now let's all chew on that conclusion .... !

NB: Notice that the work, work, work nation of Japan, which makes true the adage, "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy".

The headline is misleading. It jumps to a conclusion that it is big govt that is "making" people happy. When in fact the scientists say nothing of the sort. Correlation is not causation. The real question here is WHY are people more satisfied? Maybe it drugs in Denmark, environment in nordic countries, or freedom in the US. There are 3 different govt influences there.

Are we saying we need a bigger government to be happier? No," Flavin said. "Instead, our goal is to objectively examine the data and let people draw their own conclusions.

In the end what matters is MY satisfaction, and Im happier with less govt, more freedom.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Mostly...I make meaningful comments...even if you are unable to recognize it.

Glad you have "immense gratitude" for the fact that you and the others here experience more personal freedom from governmental intrusion than almost everyone else who has ever lived in society. You ought to show it more...rather than harping on wanting more so often.

Your lazy argument of painting the desire to have a more free society as ingratitude is demeaning, stupid and useless. Something else you should recognize is that the US is no longer the most free country on the planet. We are headed the wrong direction. That is fact based, not how I feel about it.

Improving society and being grateful for how good it is are not mutually exclusive, your attempts to make the two so shows just how lazy your argument is.

 

[Captain Adverse]

You sound like a broken record.

I give you proof-positive that citizens of some countries like to have BigGovernment dispensing social-services.

Rather than 20% of the entire national budget going to just Defense, when there is not even a war on this planet justifying the cost.

You think we are going to stop the jihadists with F-35s .... ?

....And my point was that there will always be people everywhere who like handouts.

The great mass of the city of Rome at the height of empire were fed and kept entertained by bread and circuses paid for by taking from the rest of that empire.

That's where the phrase comes from.

The rest of your straw man position would require a response that is too lengthy and complicated to bother with. :coffeepap:

 

[Frank Apisa]

Your lazy argument of painting the desire to have a more free society as ingratitude is demeaning, stupid and useless. Something else you should recognize is that the US is no longer the most free country on the planet. We are headed the wrong direction. That is fact based, not how I feel about it.

Yeah...you think so many things are stupid and useless...unless you invent them.

So...your opinion that we are headed in the wrong direction is fact based!

Jesus...is there no end?

Improving society and being grateful for how good it is are not mutually exclusive, your attempts to make the two so shows just how lazy your argument is.

Yeah...lazy and stupid.

You sound like you prepare your debate comments in a playground sandbox.

 

[Lafayette]

The real question here is WHY are people more satisfied? Maybe it drugs in Denmark, environment in nordic countries, or freedom in the US. There are 3 different govt influences there..

You misunderstand what BigGovernment is, I think.

In European terms it means governments with sizable expenditures in Social Services. For instance, an National Health Service or Free PostSecondary Education.

Which are typical of European countries, whereas in America BigGovernment means neither of those two. In fact, the largest single expenditure in the US is the DoD. See total Discretionary Expenditures in 2015 here:

That 54% that goes to the DoD, do you think that is BigGovernment or just Enormously-Big-Military. I opt for the latter ...

 

[Lafayette]

Big government is needed by the left to tell them what size soda they can buy and to regulate every aspect of their lives because they are incapable of making sound choices ! :roll:

Yeah, right! Or Right?

Dunno. Left or Right, they both seem politically tone-deaf to me nowadays.

But, you give me YOUR ARGUMENT that justifies an expenditure of Half the Budget of the United States.

Darth Vader with his Galactic Force of BadGuys just landed on the dark-side of the moon ... ?

 

[Lafayette]

Perhaps you aren't...but considering your sentiments on what I said, I won't be betting on it.

Some guys absolutely MUST HAVE the last word.

You've had yours. Do you feel better now ... ?

 

[Frank Apisa]

Some guys absolutely MUST HAVE the last word.

You've had yours. Do you feel better now ... ?

Yeah...so far.

 

[Cyrylek]

.Countries ranked from most to least satisfied—with 10 the highest level of satisfaction—included:
Denmark: 8.20
Switzerland: 8.10
Iceland: 8.04
Ireland: 7.95
Austria: 7.95
Finland: 7.82
Sweden: 7.82
Canada: 7.82
Norway: 7.78
Netherlands: 7.76
United States: 7.61
Australia: 7.58

All such lists should be taken with a lump of salt. But here, for comparison, a list of most economically free countries in the world, by the (explained in detail) methodology of the Heritage Foundation (http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking):

(100 is the highest possible score)

Hong Kong 88.6
Singapore 87.8
New Zealand 81.6
Switzerland 81.0
Australia 80.3
Canada 78.0
Chile 77.7
Ireland 77.3
Estonia 77.7
UK 76.4
USA 75.4
Denmark 75.3

You could as well argue that Switzerland, Ireland and Canada have such high "satisfaction" because they more free-market, overall, than America....

 

[jonny5]

You misunderstand what BigGovernment is, I think.

In European terms it means governments with sizable expenditures in Social Services. For instance, an National Health Service or Free PostSecondary Education.

Which are typical of European countries, whereas in America BigGovernment means neither of those two. In fact, the largest single expenditure in the US is the DoD. See total Discretionary Expenditures in 2015 here:

g[/IMG]

That 54% that goes to the DoD, do you think that is BigGovernment or just Enormously-Big-Military. I opt for the latter ...

Actually, Dept of Health is the largest expenditure by agency. 1.1 trillion in 2016. DoD is 3rd after Social Security. By function, social programs spending (human resources) is 4x as much as defense.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2017/assets/hist04z1.xls
https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2017/assets/hist03z1.xls

 

[Lafayette]

YOU CAN'T TAKE IT WITH YOU ...

All such lists should be taken with a lump of salt.

Did you know that you are in an Economics Forum?

Economist don't take anything they can't measure with a "lump of salt". (Berk!)

The Heritage Foundation shows an interesting list and thanx for showing it.

I was wondering how the HF defined "economic freedom". Their definition (as excerpted from their site) is:

What is economic freedom?

Economic freedom is the fundamental right of every human to control his or her own labor and property. In an economically free society, individuals are free to work, produce, consume, and invest in any way they please. In economically free societies, governments allow labor, capital, and goods to move freely, and refrain from coercion or constraint of liberty beyond the extent necessary to protect and maintain liberty itself.

Which is fine as definitions go. But not nearly as much as needed, I suggest.

The definition simply shows (to my mind) that the two most important aspects of the question are Work and Property. Which does not surprise me in the least.

I respond with the same argument that I have since joining this forum: A country cannot fight Income Disparity for as long as "economic freedom" means upper-income flat-tax rates at less than 30%, which is the key reason that 89% of all Net Worth (that includes all property) belongs to only 11% of the population. (Professor Domhof, UofCal, Wealth, Income and Power.)

A nation has an inherent duty to assure that the country does NOT assure the Wealth of just one segment of the population. The Wealth of a nation (created by all) should be enjoyed, not equally but equitably, by all the population strata; and not uniquely by a select minority of families who have benefited by thoroughly unfair taxation rates.

You may wish to call it Economic Freedom; but I see it as an unfair rip-off of one segment of the population by another - and not the least bit equitable. Compared to other nations, the US is a "free for all", with the consequences to its citizens that such a condition intimates as mentioned above.

I have lived in Switzerland, and (until recently) I sensed that they could not give a damn about the origins of the money that filled the coffers of Swiss Banks. The Panama Papers show exactly the extent to which the "Offshore Wealth" phenomenon is very widespread indeed.

All for what? You can't take it with you when you go ...

 

[Lafayette]

Actually, Dept of Health is the largest expenditure by agency

So the pie-chart above that I've shown has been falsified by the Office of Management and Budget of the White House, then made public on their site.

Yeah, right - now pull the other leg.

You may be confusing the private and public portions of the total Health Care costs.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Yeah...you think so many things are stupid and useless...unless you invent them.

So...your opinion that we are headed in the wrong direction is fact based!

Jesus...is there no end?

Frank, as a nation becomes less free, you feel there is no room for criticism? Fact: the US has been dropping in the freedom index for over 2 decades. That is fact based.

Yeah...lazy and stupid.

You sound like you prepare your debate comments in a playground sandbox.

Or you could stop making lazy, stupid arguments. Your pick. I have yet to see you bring anything but attempting to demonize your opposition and emotional arguments using terms like ingratitude to shame them into silence. I am waiting for you to contribute in a meaningful way.

 

[Socrates1]

Yeah, right! Or Right?

Dunno. Left or Right, they both seem politically tone-deaf to me nowadays.

But, you give me YOUR ARGUMENT that justifies an expenditure of Half the Budget of the United States.

Darth Vader with his Galactic Force of BadGuys just landed on the dark-side of the moon ... ?

perhaps on that side . :lamo

 

[Ikari]

How about you just read back instead.

So you're saying you can't. Its as I said, you never addressed any point. You claim you did, but have produced nothing to back the claim.

 

[Lafayette]

Hello, after some searching on the net, I have found that the above pie-chart may indeed be wrong.

See here.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa ...

 

[austrianecon]

Only the ignorant would come to such a conclusion.

Oversight by staffed ministries of public expenditures for social purpose does not mean, ipso facto, dictatorial control.

It means attention is given to the budget expenditures for said services, and, of course, the means necessary to deliver them. Which is the meaning of the ranking I gave in the above commentary.

Which is one helluva lot better than not having them at all. But what would Replicant knot-heads know about Social Democracy?

Nothing, nada, niente, rien, nichts, tipota ...

So your absolute ignorance is showing.. Do you know how Swiss do their taxes? Your tax rate for your "state" or Canton in this case is equal to what you pay in "Federal" (Confederation) tax. So both Governmental authorities get equal amount of money. Yet provide very different services.

Cantons actually provide all transit, healthcare, welfare, law enforcement and public education in Switzerland. The Confederation (Swiss central Government) only provides national defense, border control, foreign relations and do transfer of taxes collected to Cantons. Swiss central Government is one of the smallest in the world and decentralized in the world.

Like I said it's a Libertarian's wet dream when it comes to Government as it's about local first, the Nation second. It's highly decentralized and voters have direct control over MAJOR issues (such as income guarantee vote coming up).

But thanks for disproving nothing I said.. status quo for you..

 

[Lafayette]

Like I said it's a Libertarian's wet dream when it comes to Government as it's about local first, the Nation second. It's highly decentralized and voters have direct control over MAJOR issues (such as income guarantee vote coming up).

But thanks for disproving nothing I said.. status quo for you..

I've lived in Switzerland. I know how it works.

The cantons are based upon three/four different languages, which is why the cantons are tiny nation-states within the country of Switzerland and have great autonomy.

There is no ressemblance between Switzerland and the US (or any European country, for that matter) in terms of its political structure - but since it is, ipso facto, a neutral state it does not really have a foreign-policy.

What I like most about the country is its use of referenda. Given the collection of sufficient signatures and practically any matter, including national laws, can be put to a popular vote.

This helps keep the parties in line when it comes to national legislation from Berne, its capital.

I've often thought that the referendum is exactly what the US needed to reign in the usage of money by plutocrats to warp the American democracy ...

 

[jonny5]

So the pie-chart above that I've shown has been falsified by the Office of Management and Budget of the White House, then made public on their site.

Yeah, right - now pull the other leg.

You may be confusing the private and public portions of the total Health Care costs.

No, youre just ignoring 75% of all spending. From your site

https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/

 

[Frank Apisa]

Frank, as a nation becomes less free, you feel there is no room for criticism? Fact: the US has been dropping in the freedom index for over 2 decades. That is fact based.

You live in a country in which people are more free from governmental intrusion than almost all the other people who have lived on this planet. Actually, most people alive right now...DO.

Please continue to be a cry-baby because you want even more...and accept the fact that I am going to laugh at people like you for doing so.

Or you could stop making lazy, stupid arguments. Your pick.

I do not make lazy, stupid arguments. You are addicted to calling arguments made with which you disagree....lazy and stupid. I've seen you do it with many people here.

Hey...doesn't make you a bad guy. I know many jerks who are not necessarily bad guys.

I have yet to see you bring anything but attempting to demonize your opposition and emotional arguments using terms like ingratitude to shame them into silence. I am waiting for you to contribute in a meaningful way.

Give it a break. My comment about your lack of gratitude for what you have has more going for it than just about everything you've written in this thread.

 

[Frank Apisa]

So you're saying you can't. Its as I said, you never addressed any point. You claim you did, but have produced nothing to back the claim.

If you missed it...just re-read. If you are just interested in asking people to jump through hoops for you...choose someone else. I'm on to your game.

 

[OpportunityCost]

You live in a country in which people are more free from governmental intrusion than almost all the other people who have lived on this planet. Actually, most people alive right now...DO.

Please continue to be a cry-baby because you want even more...and accept the fact that I am going to laugh at people like you for doing so.

That does not mean it cannot be better. I see you are still fishing.

I do not make lazy, stupid arguments. You are addicted to calling arguments made with which you disagree....lazy and stupid. I've seen you do it with many people here.

Hey...doesn't make you a bad guy. I know many jerks who are not necessarily bad guys.

Give it a break. My comment about your lack of gratitude for what you have has more going for it than just about everything you've written in this thread.

In fact, you make many lazy, stupid arguments or you wouldn't need to keep reaching for personal remarks and veiled bait.