Israeli Election Compass [W:3]

[Carjosse]

There is a compass here, for the Israeli elections. I aligned with Meretz and Balad in the top left. One thing I found interesting is the fact this question exists: "Segregation between men and women on public transportation lines that mainly serve Haredi populations should be allowed" and people say it's the Muslims that want to discriminate against women. For my own personal views I think they should be a secular state not a Jewish one. I also have no problem with Jews living in Palestine as long as they buy the land not steal it.

 

[digsbe]

I don't know how closely I would trust a poll from Al Jazeera, but I did take the quiz. I scored right of center in between Torah Judaism: Yakov Litzman and Yesh Atid: Yair Lapid.

 

[digsbe]

Moderator's Warning:

Please note that this thread has been moved to the Middle East forum. Martial Law now applies to all future posts.

 

[Carjosse]

I don't know how closely I would trust a poll from Al Jazeera, but I did take the quiz. I scored right of center in between Torah Judaism: Yakov Litzman and Yesh Atid: Yair Lapid.

Well AJE didn't do the poll it's by a company called Kieskompas BV:
André Krouwel - Consultant
Monaa Quartey - Project Manager
Hanane Abouellotfi - Content Manager

 

[X Factor]

There is a compass here, for the Israeli elections. I aligned with Meretz and Balad in the top left. One thing I found interesting is the fact this question exists: "Segregation between men and women on public transportation lines that mainly serve Haredi populations should be allowed" and people say it's the Muslims that want to discriminate against women. For my own personal views I think they should be a secular state not a Jewish one. I also have no problem with Jews living in Palestine as long as they buy the land not steal it.

That's rich. You have no problem painting Jews with one large brush and yet glibly dismiss any concerns about the way some Muslims treat and believe in treating women. I mean there's discrimination and then there's FGM, beatings, stonings and honor killings.

If you think Israel should be secular, how about the numerous Islamic nations in the region? Same thing?

 

[Carjosse]

That's rich. You have no problem painting Jews with one large brush and yet dismiss any concerns about the way some Muslims treat and believe in treating women. I mean there's discrimination and then there's FGM, beatings stonings and honor killings.

If you think Israel should be secular, how about the numerous Islamic nations in the region?

I'm sorry I thought we were talking about Israel. I'm just saying that most people view only Muslims as a group that discriminate against women while ultra-Orthodox Jews do aswell.

 

[X Factor]

I'm sorry I thought we were talking about Israel. I'm just saying that most people view only Muslims as a group that discriminate against women while ultra-Orthodox Jews do aswell.

I totally get what you're saying. You wanted to deflect any crticism (which hadn't even happened) away from Islamists by serving up some Jews to criticize instead.

Now, how about my other question. Should Islamist nations also be secular?

 

[Carjosse]

I totally get what you're saying. You wanted to deflect any crticism away from Islamists by serving up Jews to criticize instead.

Now, how about my other question. Should Islamist nations also be secular?

I call it the geographic area of Palestine but the country is Israel. I'm not deflecting away form Islamists I'm talking about something relevant to the topic, ultra orthodox Jews. I recognize Israel as a state I just want it to be secular. I believe all sates should be secular.

 

[mbig]

I call it the geographic area of Palestine but the country is Israel. I'm not deflecting away form Islamists I'm talking about something relevant to the topic, ultra orthodox Jews. I recognize Israel as a state I just want it to be secular. I believe all sates should be secular.

Premise/fact error.
Israel IS secular, if Jewish in majority and character.
Ultra-orthodox are a Minority in Israel and the laws in Israel are not Torahaic, unlike Most Muslim countries whose laws reflect at least in good part Sharia.
There are in fact two Islamic Theocracies and NO Jewish or Christian ones.
Egypt just gave the Muslim Brotherhood and Salafis 70% of the vote which will further Islamicize the law there.
Arab Spring is bringing Islam/Koran to government/jurisprudence. You object?

That said, I would object to Any laws which allow discrimination of Any kind, especially Religion-based ones.
I am concerned the fertility for the highly religious in Israel is changing the demography and character of the state.
The again, fertility is burying Gaza and countries throughout the Arab world: thus 'Arab Spring'.

 

[Carjosse]

Premise/fact error.
Israel IS secular, if Jewish in majority and character.
Ultra-orthodox are a Minority in Israel and the laws in Israel are not Torahaic, unlike Most Muslim countries whose laws reflect at least in good part Sharia.
There are in fact Two Islamic Theocracies and NO Jewish or Christian ones.

That said, I would object to any laws which allow discrimination of any kind, especially Religion-based ones.

They seem to want to be:

The Israeli cabinet today approved a bill requiring new non-Jewish citizens to swear an oath of allegiance to Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state", in a move that has brought accusations of discrimination against Israel's Arab minority.

Their coat of arms also:

 

[mbig]

They seem to want to be:

Their coat of arms also:

You didn't answer my post which Refuted yours, you deflected it with "want to be."
Again, Israel IS secular if Jewish in majority and character.
Arabs enjoy full rights in Israel, unlike say Copts in Egypt/whole Arab world where Christians are persecuted are Fleeing.
You didn't answer on the New Islamist Governments of Arab Spring etc either.

A loyalty oath is Not a religious law, it's a national political one.
Israel is a unique position where 20% of it's citizenry might very well want it gone.
In light of that, a Loyalty oath would not be so egregious.
I wouldn't object to a Loyalty oath in America either.

But I reiterate my objection to any Law which caters to ultra-orthodox by discriminating against any class of citizen.
Of course, MY objection is pan-Middle-East and Universal, while yours is just anti-Israel/anti-Jewish-State.

 

[Carjosse]

You didn't answer my post which Refuted yours, you deflected it with "want to be."
Again, Israel IS secular if Jewish in majority and character.
Arabs enjoy full rights in Israel, unlike say Copts in Egypt/whole Arab world where Christians are persecuted are Fleeing.
You didn't answer on the New Islamist Governments of Arab Spring etc either.

A loyalty oath is Not a religious law, it's a national political one.
Israel is a unique position where 20% of it's citizenry might very well want it gone.
In light of that, a Loyalty oath would not be so egregious.

And I also reiterate my objection to any Law which caters to ultra-orthodox by discriminating against any class of citizen.
Of course MY objection is pan-Middle-East and Universal... while yours is just anti-Israel.

I just remembered the point I was trying to make now. There are some parties that would like to see Israel turned into or pretty much a Jewish state. There we go now back to the ultra-orthodox thing, I disagree with anything that gives caters to ultra-orthodox Jews for example the law that exempts them form conscription, being ultra-orthodox should not exempt you from military service because everyone else has to do it. No I am just focusing on Israel because that's what the thread about. If you want to know my opinion on Islamic states and the Arab spring, I do not agree with nay of the countries electing an Islamist government or at the very least drafting an Islamist constitution. All states should be secular and the country that seem to have succeeded is Libya because they elected the National Forces Alliance.

 

[X Factor]

I call it the geographic area of Palestine but the country is Israel. I'm not deflecting away form Islamists I'm talking about something relevant to the topic, ultra orthodox Jews. I recognize Israel as a state I just want it to be secular. I believe all sates should be secular.

You started this thread to make this "point", didn't you? You put it in your OP. You can't claim it's irrelevant now.

One thing I found interesting is the fact this question exists: "Segregation between men and women on public transportation lines that mainly serve Haredi populations should be allowed" and people say it's the Muslims that want to discriminate against women.

So what if people say that "it's the the Muslims that want to discriminate against women"? Are you saying there's no truth to that? That it's only true of certain Jewish people?

 

[Carjosse]

You started this thread to make this "point", didn't you? You put it in your OP. You can't claim it's irrelevant now.



So what if people say that "it's the the Muslims that want to discriminate against women"? Are you saying there's no truth to that? That it's only true of certain Jewish people?

What people do not usually realize is that Islamist are not the only group to discriminate against women and there is fairly large population of ultra-orthodox Jews who also discriminate against women.

 

[X Factor]

What people do not usually realize is that Islamist are not the only group to discriminate against women and there is fairly large population of ultra-orthodox Jews who also discriminate against women.

Maybe what people realize is that which you make a point in condemnimg some Jews for is actually more prevalent (and severe) in some groups that you remain strangely silent about.

 

[Carjosse]

Maybe what people realize is that which you make a point in condemnimg some Jews for is actually more prevalent (and severe) in some groups that you remain strangely silent about.

It is accepted and swept under the rug because they are not Muslim.

 

[Peter Grimm]

There is a compass here, for the Israeli elections. I aligned with Meretz and Balad in the top left. One thing I found interesting is the fact this question exists: "Segregation between men and women on public transportation lines that mainly serve Haredi populations should be allowed" and people say it's the Muslims that want to discriminate against women. For my own personal views I think they should be a secular state not a Jewish one. I also have no problem with Jews living in Palestine as long as they buy the land not steal it.

If you're not Jewish, don't you think it's inappropriate for you to tell the Israelis how to run their state?

 

[Serenity]

You know guys this is just sad how quickly this thread degenerated. Really, it is. Rather than just picking one thing out and remarking on that alone, we could've had a good discussion going here on where we individually sit on Israel's overall political landscape if we looked at the questions and answered them with our own personal views/thoughts. There's 30 key questions on a range of issues ranging from diplomatic, security, socio economic and civil issues.

I can't help but wonder sometimes if we have more views in common overall than we actually think.

Re the comment in the OP. I'm with MBig here. I also reiterate my objection to any Law which caters to ultra-orthodox by discriminating against any class of citizen and my objection is obviously also universal.

 

[X Factor]

You know guys this is just sad how quickly this thread degenerated. Really, it is. Rather than just picking one thing out and remarking on that alone, we could've had a good discussion going here on where we individually sit on Israel's overall political landscape if we looked at the questions and answered them with our own personal views/thoughts. There's 30 key questions on a range of issues ranging from diplomatic, security, socio economic and civil issues.

I can't help but wonder sometimes if we have more views in common overall than we actually think.

Re the comment in the OP. I'm with MBig here. I also reiterate my objection to any Law which caters to ultra-orthodox by discriminating against any class of citizen and my objection is obviously also universal.

The tenor of the thread was set by the OP. The link to the questions almost seems incidental to the other comments, and not just the one that's been discussed but there's also the accusation in there that Jews are stealing land.

 

[ido_]

First of all you should note that the compass is not made by Aljazirah but by the Israel institute for democracy
http://en.idi.org.il/tools-and-data/guttman-center-for-surveys/2013-compass/

Though I'd say that my result was pretty much accurate (one quarter left and one quater up from the center) I think this compass is wrong by definition. When you put state-religious affairs and national security on the same X axis you will get weird results. Yisrael Beiteinu for example is one of the most secular parties in Israel, even more than Meretz yet they are in the Pro-Religion side of the compass, same goes for the Likud, which is ridiculous. The Labor party is way up there with the extreme left when it should be just above and left of Yesh Atid, Hatnua Should be in the middle and Yesh Atid and should be just right of it (at least how I perceive the map)

The questions themselves are very black and white, "do you support the expelling illegal immigrants and their children" is a good example.

Many questions are formulated as if Israel has the situation described in the question where Israel has the opposite situation in reality.

Mako's app (http://www.mako.co.il/news-elections-2013/vote?a=1) was better but it was only in Hebrew, it also included parties which are very small and most likely not enter the Knesset (I came out closest to one of those parties and labor came second)

 

[ido_]

They seem to want to be:

Their coat of arms also:

What is religious about any of those?
One is a nationalist idea that was promoted by the most secular party in the Knesset and the symbol is a symbol from the Jewish people's culture, how many European states have a cross in their flag? Does it make them theocracies?

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

I totally get what you're saying. You wanted to deflect any crticism (which hadn't even happened) away from Islamists by serving up some Jews to criticize instead.

Now, how about my other question. Should Islamist nations also be secular?

Uh, dude, maybe he wanted to discuss the israeli election like I do? You don't need to agree with anything he said, but there are better ways to go about it than trying to totally derail what could be an interesting discussion (being we have some Israelis here and the system can be confusing to an outsider)

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Premise/fact error.
Israel IS secular, if Jewish in majority and character.
Ultra-orthodox are a Minority in Israel and the laws in Israel are not Torahaic, unlike Most Muslim countries whose laws reflect at least in good part Sharia.
There are in fact two Islamic Theocracies and NO Jewish or Christian ones.
Egypt just gave the Muslim Brotherhood and Salafis 70% of the vote which will further Islamicize the law there.
Arab Spring is bringing Islam/Koran to government/jurisprudence. You object?

That said, I would object to Any laws which allow discrimination of Any kind, especially Religion-based ones.
I am concerned the fertility for the highly religious in Israel is changing the demography and character of the state.
The again, fertility is burying Gaza and countries throughout the Arab world: thus 'Arab Spring'.

Boom~!!! See, that's how you do it

 

[Carjosse]

If you're not Jewish, don't you think it's inappropriate for you to tell the Israelis how to run their state?

I still make the point that no state should be able to steal and form the people who legally own it or discriminate against women no matter what religion they are Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, etc.

 

[digsbe]

I support Israel as a secular nation that is also the Jewish homeland. When asked the questions regarding putting orthodox Jewish faith into law I disagreed.