Israel calls on 1.1 million Gazans to evacuate south in order UN warns is ‘impossible’

[AliHajiSheik]

Sorry for the late replay.

No, you need to recognize the Israeli expansionist agenda in order to understand the difficulties in this conflict or accept that Israel will eventually cease to exist with not one but two new genocides, first that of the palestinians and then that of the Jews as a consequence. That is the incongruous but long term inevitable consecuence of your reasoning.

Don't get me wrong. I do support the existance of Israel, I do agree with that Hamas needs to be eliminated, I do believe that not only the US but also the EU need to be firmly and clear in their support of Israel in this situation or we will have a very much more disasteress situation.

BUT.

Before 1948, Israel did not exist. The whole territory was "Palestine", ruled by the UK. In the creation of Israel, Palestine was devided in two areas, one Jewish (Israel) and one arabic (West bank) Before the middle of the 19th century the whole area was populated by Palestines alone, and this since the Jews was displaced from the area in 135 after Christ. Jews from mainly eastern Europe and Russia (due to anti semitism of the time) started moving there in the middle of the 19th centuryand at the end of the 19th centuray the idea of a jewish state was formed within the jewish community. These are the borders through the times since the formation of Israel.


View attachment 67473126

Now as I said in the post you responded to Israel want the areas of Palestine that was made arabic but without the Palastines and has been working towards this goal for decades. Slowely commitng the first genocide that I talk about above. In the long term, this needs to stopp. In the short term this unables the idea of the arabic countries accepting Palestine refugees, since this is what Israel is trying to accomplish ( to displaced plaestines from the area never to be able to return and take over the area) which makes the comments about "where are the arabic countries (that not support Hamas) in this? Why don't they help the palestinian refugees" kind of ridiclus.

So , In the short term. Total support for the Israel existance is needed. The US must be the voice of reason in the entire process of how to fight Hamas and Israel must give it the time it needs to eliminate Hamas without carrying out a massacre of Palestinians in Gaza. If israel and the US come to the conclusion that Israel must enter and clear Gaza, then Israel must make room on its territory for the Palestinians who are now in the firing line and the United States must be the one to guarantee these fleeing Palestinians that they can return to their homes when the conflict is over . It should also be allowed to take time. Moving over a million people and at the same time ensuring that the terrorists are not among them takes time.

Strange how your series of maps does not include the time when Jordan annexed the West Bank between 1950 and 1988.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

Is there any point to you being here if you can't even acknowledge established facts? I'm done wasting time with you. Have a great day.

I always acknowledge facts.

What I do not acknowledge are clear falsehoods. Those I deny.

When Israel is in routine violation of the laws, protocols and conventions it swore to observe when becoming a UN member state, why should Israel be trusted? Does that make sense?

Israel does not violate the law. Neither does it violate protocols or conventions.

 

[Juks]

Strange how your series of maps does not include the time when Jordan annexed the West Bank between 1950 and 1988.

I was trying to simplefy things. But Youu ar right, I shouldn't have.

 

[snakestretcher]

I always acknowledge facts.

What I do not acknowledge are clear falsehoods. Those I deny.



Israel does not violate the law. Neither does it violate protocols or conventions.

I proved to you, with a cite from the organisation that Israel is a member of, and whose laws, conventions and protocols they are condemning Israel for violating; the same things you pointlessly persist in denying.

Israel’s Settlements Have No Legal Validity, Constitute Flagrant Violation of International Law, Security Council Reaffirms | Meetings Coverage and Press Releases

14 Delegations in Favour of Resolution 2334 (2016) as United States Abstains The Security Council reaffirmed this afternoon that Israel’s establishment of settlements in Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, had no legal validity, constituting a flagrant violation...

press.un.org

When you join a club you abide by its rules. Israel was fortunate to finally be admitted to the UN. If it doesn't want to play nice, nobody is stopping it from leaving. It won't be missed, given all the problems it has caused, and all the Resolutions it has ignored.

List of United Nations resolutions concerning Israel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Toggle Almendro]

Sorry for the late replay.
No, you need to recognize the Israeli expansionist agenda in order to understand the difficulties in this conflict or accept that Israel will eventually cease to exist with not one but two new genocides, first that of the palestinians and then that of the Jews as a consequence. That is the incongruous but long term inevitable consequence of your reasoning.

No such expansionist agenda.

And no one will be committing genocide against the Jews. There are at least a couple nuclear arsenals that will be launched before that ever happens.

No one is going to commit genocide against the Palestinians either. Israel is not trying to do such a thing.

These are the borders through the times since the formation of Israel.
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That is incorrect. That set of images leaves out the slide after the 1967 war, that shows Israel in full possession of both the West Bank and Sinai Peninsula.

It also leaves out the slide after giving Egypt the Sinai Peninsula in exchange for peace, where Israel still possessed the entire West Bank.

Leaving out those two slides makes it appear that Israel has never given land back in exchange for peace.

The last slide in that set doesn't show Israel taking land. It shows land that Israel gave to the Palestinians when it had appeared that the Palestinians were interested in making peace.

 

[snakestretcher]

No such expansionist agenda.

And no one will be committing genocide against the Jews. There are at least a couple nuclear arsenals that will be launched before that ever happens.

No one is going to commit genocide against the Palestinians either. Israel is not trying to do such a thing.



That is incorrect. That set of images leaves out the slide after the 1967 war, that shows Israel in full possession of both the West Bank and Sinai Peninsula.

It also leaves out the slide after giving Egypt the Sinai Peninsula in exchange for peace, where Israel still possessed the entire West Bank.

Leaving out those two slides makes it appear that Israel has never given land back in exchange for peace.

The last slide in that set doesn't show Israel taking land. It shows land that Israel gave to the Palestinians when it had appeared that the Palestinians were interested in making peace.

More idiotic denial. Do you not understand what 'Occupied Territories' means? This might help.

Israel and The Occupied Territories - The Occupied Territories - United States Department of State

www.state.gov

 

[Toggle Almendro]

I proved to you, with a cite from the organisation that Israel is a member of, and whose laws, conventions and protocols they are condemning Israel for violating; the same things you pointlessly persist in denying.

That link that whined about settlements was supposed to be proof of illegality?

Sorry, but it isn't.

Israel is under no obligation to hand land over to people who are waging an illegal war of aggression against them.

If the Palestinians wanted land then they should have tried making peace.

More idiotic denial.

I do not share the opinion that denying falsehoods is idiotic.

Do you not understand what 'Occupied Territories' means?

It's a statement that antisemites use to demonize Jews.

 

[snakestretcher]

That link that whined about settlements was supposed to be proof of illegality?

Sorry, but it isn't.

Israel is under no obligation to hand land over to people who are waging an illegal war of aggression against them.

If the Palestinians wanted land then they should have tried making peace.

The United Nations would beg to differ. The global community (including Israel), enacted those laws which Israel is in violation of. Why do you persist in denying the reality staring you in the face?
Let me remind you that under International Law, and the laws of warfare, the retention of land gained in war is illegal. By occupying disputed territory Israel is violating the law. Saying 'it doesn't' simply makes you look desperate, and anyone agreeing with you looks equally ridiculous.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Toggle Almendro]

The United Nations would beg to differ.

Except, they don't.

The global community (including Israel), enacted those laws which Israel is in violation of.

Israel is not violating those laws.

Why do you persist in denying the reality staring you in the face?

I do not deny reality. I deny falsehoods.

Let me remind you that under International Law, and the laws of warfare, the retention of land gained in war is illegal. By occupying disputed territory Israel is violating the law. Saying 'it doesn't' simply makes you look desperate, and anyone agreeing with you looks equally ridiculous.

Nonsense. There is no obligation to hand land over to people who are actively waging an illegal war of aggression against you.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Did you miss the part that says:

"Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."

Let me know when the Palestinians agree to make peace with Israel.

"Land For Peace" does NOT mean that the Palestinians get any land while they still refuse to make peace.

That whole "refusal to ever make peace" thing makes every single Israeli settlement 100% legal. And the settlements will remain fully legal until such time as the Palestinians ever decide to make peace.

Israel is probably going to build some pretty nice resort settlements in the northern half of the Gaza Strip once the Palestinians are all cleared out.

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2023/10/17/israeli-minister-losing-land-is-price-arabs

 

[Juks]

No such expansionist agenda.

And no one will be committing genocide against the Jews. There are at least a couple nuclear arsenals that will be launched before that ever happens.

No one is going to commit genocide against the Palestinians either. Israel is not trying to do such a thing.



That is incorrect. That set of images leaves out the slide after the 1967 war, that shows Israel in full possession of both the West Bank and Sinai Peninsula.

It also leaves out the slide after giving Egypt the Sinai Peninsula in exchange for peace, where Israel still possessed the entire West Bank.

Leaving out those two slides makes it appear that Israel has never given land back in exchange for peace.

The last slide in that set doesn't show Israel taking land. It shows land that Israel gave to the Palestinians when it had appeared that the Palestinians were interested in making peace.

I think you dismiss my conclutions a little bit to lightly. I admit it is guesswork, but there is logic within them that needs to be at least considered. Just like my guesswork on the danger of Hamas was 2 years ago on this forum and I was subquentional dismissed at that time to (By Israeli posters...). Very much like you dismiss me now. I can of course be wrong, and I often am, but when I guess I do base my guesses on logic so....

The reason why I see this consequence in the long term future is:

1. Once the genocide of the palestinians on the westbank is virtually out-and-out . The arabic countries will have the excuse they need to invade Israel in the eyes of the FN. The US is very much alone in the world when it comes to not see what is going on and where the Israeli politics towards the west bank is heading. Hence the need to use your veto every time the Palistinian situation is discussed.
2. Nuclear weapons is a double-edged sword. As soon as you used it you are out of support.
3. Every one says that Israel is so strong military, but if we take a look, strong should be equipped with quotation marks. Israel is in size very much like Sweden. Israel has about 9 millions inhabitants, Sweden has 10 millions. Israel has a GDP of 489 billion USD, Sweden has a GDP of 636 billion dollars. recognizing that nowadays Sweden only spend about 1,5 % of the GDP on the military and Israel spends over 4% and that Israel has conscription service and Sweden don't makes a big difference, but Sweden used to have conscription service until the 1990s and did spend over 4% of our GDP on the military at periods and like Israel we have our own production. Still have you ever heard anyone say we had a strong military? This is because Sweden's military capacity was compaired to the Soviet union and the Israel military capacity is compaired to the palestinian resistant groups. So how stong is the Israel military in comparizon to a unified arabic world? If the arabic world manage to get one of the superpowers on their side (like China or Russia) what then? Sweden was at the time expected to manage to withhold an attack for about 3 weeks...Growing up I never heard any US officials talk about the Swedish military capacity as "strong"
4. United state is a very totalitarian democracy, very much of the power is concentrated on one person (the president) but still a democracy. It stand to reason that there will at one point come a president that will withdraw the support for Israel. It might happen at the next election or 20 years from now, but it stand to reason that at some point it will happen. Since the debate and views of the americans also is very much either/or it also stand to reason that the elected president will have the support of the majority no matter what stand he/she makes.
5. Now, I think that the Europe strong countries will react differently to an attack from the arabic states on Israel at such a time, but there will be a window of opportunity before those reactions results in actual military aid (which will not come at al if Israel start using nuclear weapons). I believe the arabic states very much know this and the sad thing is that once the deeds are done they can't be reversed. You might say that there are arabic states on the side of Israel, but I believe this is only true as long as US is supporting Israel, if that support where to seize even for a day, al bets and gloves are of.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

Once the genocide of the palestinians on the westbank is virtually out-and-out . The arabic countries will have the excuse they need to invade Israel in the eyes of the FN. The US is very much alone in the world when it comes to not see what is going on and where the Israeli politics towards the west bank is heading.

I'm not sure what FN stands for but there is no genocide being perpetrated against the Palestinians.

If the Arab nations invade Israel they will lose territory to Israel when they are defeated.

Nuclear weapons is a double-edged sword. As soon as you used it you are out of support.

Not necessarily out of support. It will depend on the circumstances. Using nukes in self defense as a last resort would not mean the end of support.

Also, if Israel launches all their nukes, that's the end of the Arab world. So no more threat.

Every one says that Israel is so strong military, but if we take a look, strong should be equipped with quotation marks. Israel is in size very much like Sweden. Israel has about 9 millions inhabitants, Sweden has 10 millions. Israel has a GDP of 489 billion USD, Sweden has a GDP of 636 billion dollars. recognizing that nowadays Sweden only spend about 1,5 % of the GDP on the military and Israel spends over 4% and that Israel has conscription service and Sweden don't makes a big difference, but Sweden used to have conscription service until the 1990s and did spend over 4% of our GDP on the military at periods and like Israel we have our own production. Still have you ever heard anyone say we had a strong military? This is because Sweden's military capacity was compaired to the Soviet union and the Israel military capacity is compaired to the palestinian resistant groups. So how stong is the Israel military in comparizon to a unified arabic world?

Israel has defeated a unified Arab world before, multiple times, and can do it again.

If the arabic world manage to get one of the superpowers on their side (like China or Russia) what then?

Then the United States destroys Russia or China.

United state is a very totalitarian democracy, very much of the power is concentrated on one person (the president) but still a democracy. It stand to reason that there will at one point come a president that will withdraw the support for Israel. It might happen at the next election or 20 years from now, but it stand to reason that at some point it will happen. Since the debate and views of the americans also is very much either/or it also stand to reason that the elected president will have the support of the majority no matter what stand he/she makes.

There is no chance of the United States abandoning Israel.

But if it did happen, Israel would ally with either Russia or China (or both).

Now, I think that the Europe strong countries will react differently to an attack from the arabic states on Israel at such a time, but there will be a window of opportunity before those reactions results in actual military aid (which will not come at al if Israel start using nuclear weapons). I believe the arabic states very much know this and the sad thing is that once the deeds are done they can't be reversed. You might say that there are arabic states on the side of Israel, but I believe this is only true as long as US is supporting Israel, if that support where to seize even for a day, al bets and gloves are of.

Once Israel launches all their nukes there won't be any more Arab nations.

And Germany would still support Israel so long as they only used nukes as a last resort.

Russia or China will not object to Israel using nukes once Israel becomes their ally.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

The answer is, this time around, the simple one. It isn't easy, but it's simple. It's the opportunity that the US missed after 9/11, and that failure plagues us to this day.
The war of knives in the dark. Hunt them in the shadows and send them to Sheol unwitnessed and unmourned. It's not the easy path. Combatants will die. Good men will fail. But it's done with honor. You kill men who have chosen the fight. Who have chosen the stakes.

Mossad must have read your post.

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-...-hunt-eliminate-behind-hamas-october-7-attack