Islamophobia or upholding Western values? Are there limits to criticism of Islam?

[mbig]

If you want to dismiss all Muslim countries...

Nope. Actually, I wasn't really talking about "countries" I was talking about the people living in them. I also think painting "any group" with a broad brush us unproductive and ignorant. I'll never deny the fact that there are serious issues with Sharia Law and any country that adopts it, but I wont demonize two billion people for the sake of political convenience.

What a Nonsensical reply.
We are all, of course, talking about "the people in them", and the polling/opinion thereof.

This is gratuitous last-wording.

And of course a Lie as well. As YOU brought up Turkey and Indonesia. The latter backfiring on you as I posted the numbers.

100% empty PC opinion with No knowledge of Islam or the Muslim world Whatsoever.

Making assumptions about what other people know is (objectively) a stupid policy.

ManofthePeephole and I were the ONLY ones providing any backed data.
You NOTHING.
You say you don't want to generalize about "2 billion Muslims"... but YOU were the one doing it while we provided numbers about the largest of those Muslim countries/peoples.

ManofthePeople [also] refuted you 100%.

You must be referring to "ManofthePeople"'s post which agreed with my point; when he said this:
ManofthPeephole
"""3)Fortunately not all Muslims have these same attitudes."""
He never "refuted" my main point, he disagreed with it. I was saying his argument didn't apply to what I was trying to convey because I wasn't defending Islamic Statehood, I was defending the vast majority of Muslim people who don't deserve to be painted with your ugly brush. But thanks for being obnoxious about it.

We quantified whose/how many opinions were "ugly", while you went, and continue going for the Nebulous/Muddying Strawman "2 billion Muslims", as if anyone believes they are "all terrorists" or all have the identical opinions.
And you continue providing NOTHING except that goofy attempt.

 

[joe six-pack]

It's okay. I have nothing to prove to you, little fella. You can't seem to understand my argument and refuse to stop your attempt to demonize all Muslims, even when people like Manofthepeople disagree with you. At this point, your ugly comments don't seem to even have a point or purpose. I don't have anything to say to you, but feel free to continue attacking me and innocent Muslims you have never met, for lack of an argument. I invite you to continue having a conversation with yourself because no one seems to care what you have to say. You simply cannot generalize people the way you do and be taken seriously.

Carry on.

 

[mbig]

It's okay. I have nothing to prove to you, little fella.

You have NOTHING of substance to say at all! Much less "proved" anything.
But now you Were caught in another Lie in even your empty posts. (you 'weren't' talking about countries)

you can't seem to understand my argument and refuse to stop your attempt to demonize all Muslims.
Carry on.

No one is "demonising all Muslims'.

But you have AGAIN unwittingly or obnoxiously demonstrated what I said you were doing here several times.
The Unbelievably Goofy attempt at a Strawman: Saying I or others are "demonizing all Muslims."
Not the case.
Mannofthepeephole and I provided polling data and quantitative analysis of opinion.
You provide NOTHING in all and every post.

Yet more Empty last-wording Strawman attempts to no doubt continue as this poster has NO knowledge whatsoever about Muslims, nor debate for that matter. Just a bitsy bruised PC last-wording ego ... and Lying that I or anyone is "demonizing all muslims".

 

[joe six-pack]

No one is "demonising all Muslims'.

But that's the result of your comments, even if it's not your intention. You probably don't realize that the primary US mission in the Mid-East is Nationbuilding, a major aspect of which is building a relationship of trust and respect between our cultures. No one wakes up in the morning and says, "My culture and I are worthless," ever culture has something to be proud of and a history that can be respected. Whatever your goals, they seem contrary to US interests, since we are trying to build a relationship, not tear them down.

Mannofthepeephole and I provided polling data and quantitative analysis of opinion.

You provide NOTHING in all and every post.

Polling data isn't proof, at best it's an estimation, which has to be interpreted correctly. All you have done is state your opinions.

You have to question the accuracy of any poll taken in nations where there is no freedom of speech, where society is extremely oppressive of non-conformist thoughts, where women (60% of the population) probably can't read or write which means probably are not involved in the poll. It's really besides the point anyway, which is something you can't seem to grasp. The culture and attitudes in the Mid-East are changing, just as any culture changes, over time, when influenced by education, media, the arts, infrastructure and the influences of other cultures. You seem to have such a narrow view of the Mid-East that you probably have no idea what the US is actually accomplishing by building schools and hospitals over there.

Best of luck to you.

 

[mbig]

ttempting as I pointd out as early as post #38 in thi

But that's the result of your comments, even if it's not your intention....

Only to the Unable or Intentionally dissociative reader whose trying to turn solid data showing Degrees of various problems into "all Muslims are terrorists".
The Unbelievably disingenuous or obtuse Strawman you have maintained.
I elaborated it, in fact, as early as post #38 in response to Gardener noting your BS tactic in post #37.
It was obvious then and used even more disingenuously since.

Polling data isn't proof, at best it's an estimation, which has to be interpreted correctly.all you have done is state your opinions.
..

Verses what backing your opinion?
It's solid if not perfect.
You, OTOH, just have a PC stance blown by those had numbers, which you try to foist with the persistent, dishonest, and inane strawman "demonizing all muslims", despite the fact polling does precisely the Opposite; it Quantifies/does not make absolutes.

Now what?
You know nothing and have posted no data on the the topic at hand... and I'm not letting you wiggle semantically either.
I guess we'll have yet another nonsense/deflective reply.

 

[ManofthPeephole]

Also, I'm not interesting in polling data, it doesn't tell a complete story. The best interpretation of any poll is a guesstimate. If only men were polled, which is most likely the case, then you are only seeing the opinions of less than half the population. Even if men and women were polled, the questions they asked and how they were phrased could have tipped the results in one direction or another.

wait, so your arguments are based with faults in a methodology that you know nothing about? Hopefully you don't need me to explain the issue here

The fact remains that countries like Turkey and Indonesia, which are moderate Muslim Nations that have built both democracy and a thriving economy, are key to moderating the attitudes and culture of the rest of the Islamic middle-east and north Africa. To continue to demonize them, as a whole, is ignorant and counter-productive to your goal of achieving a moderate, centrist "Islamic world."

Actually turkey is clearly an outlier when it comes to fundamentalism in the Islamic world. And while Indonesia is clearly better than places like Pakistan, fundamentalism is still a huge issue: 38% favor gender segregation, 42% support stoning adulterers, 30% support the death penalty for apostates

Muslim Publics Divided on Hamas and Hezbollah | Pew Global Attitudes Project

If you think mis-characterizing and bad-mouthing moderate Muslim people is going to help, your are gullible and ignorant. The only way to reach these people is to bridge the gap of understanding and building tolerance on both sides. Grow up.

yet you're the one trying to toss moderates in with people who support killing apostates

 

[ManofthPeephole]

But that's the result of your comments, even if it's not your intention. You probably don't realize that the primary US mission in the Mid-East is Nationbuilding, a major aspect of which is building a relationship of trust and respect between our cultures. No one wakes up in the morning and says, "My culture and I are worthless," ever culture has something to be proud of and a history that can be respected. Whatever your goals, they seem contrary to US interests, since we are trying to build a relationship, not tear them down.

Polling data isn't proof, at best it's an estimation, which has to be interpreted correctly. All you have done is state your opinions.

You have to question the accuracy of any poll taken in nations where there is no freedom of speech, where society is extremely oppressive of non-conformist thoughts, where women (60% of the population) probably can't read or write which means probably are not involved in the poll. It's really besides the point anyway, which is something you can't seem to grasp. The culture and attitudes in the Mid-East are changing, just as any culture changes, over time, when influenced by education, media, the arts, infrastructure and the influences of other cultures. You seem to have such a narrow view of the Mid-East that you probably have no idea what the US is actually accomplishing by building schools and hospitals over there.

Best of luck to you.

look, if you can actually point to issues in the methodology of the poll, I would be happy to hear them. But, as of right now, you have empty hand waving, that doesn't actually cite anything from the methodology, or explain the supposed issues with it

 

[uthman7c]

That's exactly right. With extremist Muslims, it's a pretty big target. The problem is, because it is a religious belief, albiet an extremist holding of that religious belief, how are we to tell the difference? I don't want to associate with people who hold these extreme beliefs. It's as simple as that.

Er, there is no such thing as radical Islam. Islam comes in only one flavor: Islam.

bin Laden reads from the same Quran as every other Muslim.

There is no way to misinterpret clear violence and warfare and supremacy advocated by Islamic ideology...


Quran 2:216...

Jihâd (holy fighting in Allâh's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allâh knows but you do not know.

Quran 9:5...

Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the idolaters wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Quran 9:29...

Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah[] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

 

[Jetboogieman]

bin Laden reads from the same Quran as every other Muslim.

And Micheal Phelps reads from the same Christian bible as everyone else :shrug:

 

[uthman7c]

And Micheal Phelps reads from the same Christian bible as everyone else :shrug:

Where does Christ say to mock the dead? Nowhere.

This is where it sez to kill the infidel...

Quran 9:5...

Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the idolaters wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Quran 9:29...

Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah[] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

 

[March]

What about Deuteronomy 13?

 

[uthman7c]

What about Deuteronomy 13?

What about the 10 Commandments? Thou Shall Not Murder.

Not so complicated, after all.

 

[March]

Right but Deuteronomy 13 says you can kill people, and describes when it is appropriate to stone people to death.

 

[uthman7c]

Right but Deuteronomy 13 says you can kill people, and describes when it is appropriate to stone people to death.

The 10 Commandments override all else: Thou Shall Not Murder.

Shariah overrides all else: Thou Shall Murder.

Constitutional Rights Foundation...

The Ten Commandments and many other elements of Hebrew law provided a major source for the development of western legal systems and democracy.

BRIA 16 4 a The Hebrews and the Foundation of Western Law

 

[March]

The 10 Commandments override all else: Thou Shall Not Murder.

Shariah overrides all else: Thou Shall Murder.

Nope, wrong on both.

Constitutional Rights Foundation...

The Ten Commandments and many other elements of Hebrew law provided a major source for the development of western legal systems and democracy.
BRIA 16 4 a The Hebrews and the Foundation of Western Law

Watch Britney Spears secret sex tape!

 

[uthman7c]

Nope, wrong on both.

Yep, correct on both.

Your posts, not so much

 

[uthman7c]

There are roughly two billion Muslims in the world. The religious extremists who advocate martyrdom make up a small minority.

Not so. There is no such concept as extremism in the Islamic world. That's a Western invention.

The extremists would be those Muslims who deny the Quran, the Hadith and the Shariah all decreeing jihad against infidels.

 

[March]

Yep, correct on both.

Your posts, not so much

Nope, wrong.

 

[uthman7c]

Nope, wrong.

Easier said than done.

 

[March]

You made the claim, burden of proof is on you to demonstrate it. You say 10 commandments trump Deuteronomy, prove it.

 

[uthman7c]

What about Deuteronomy 13?

Jews, generally, do not subscribe to ancient law, the 10 Commandments notwithstanding.

You see, Jews for the most part have evolved over the course of 4,000 years and do not interpret the Bible literally.

OTOH, Islam demands literal interpretation of the Quran as the direct word of allah. Thus, one of the highest achievements of any Muslim is memorization of the Quran, word-for-word, in its entirety. Children are taught to memorize the Quran as early as possible.

Islam prohibits any alteration of the Quran, including those verses advocating persecution, intolerance, hatred and murder of infidels.

Quran 15:9...

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

Quran 9:111...

Verily, Allâh has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allâh's Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Qur'ân. And who is truer to his covenant than Allâh? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. That is the supreme success.

 

[March]

Jews, generally, do not subscribe to ancient law, the 10 Commandments notwithstanding.

You see, Jews for the most part have evolved over the course of 4,000 years and do not interpret the Bible literally.

Oh yeah?

OTOH, Islam demands literal interpretation of the Quran as the direct word of allah.

Thats your opinion.

Thus, one of the highest achievements of any Muslim is memorization of the Quran, word-for-word, in its entirety. Children are taught to memorize the Quran as early as possible.

Irrelevent and does not prove your point.

Islam prohibits any alteration of the Quran, including those verses advocating persecution, intolerance, hatred and murder of infidels.

So does the bible.

Quran 15:9...


Quran 9:111...

Deuteronomy 13

 

[uthman7c]

Thats your opinion.

The opinion of Islam is the literal interpretation of Islamic scripture, such as the Quran calling for jihad.

Quran 15:9...

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

And, patternig one's self after Mahomet, who invented jihad...

Quran 33.21...

Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

 

[uthman7c]

Deuteronomy 13

10 Commandments: Thou Shall Not Murder.

Shariah Law: Shou Shall Murder...

Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada, signifying warfare to establish the religion.

The caliph makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians... until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax.

The caliph fights all other peoples until they become Muslim.

 

[March]

The opinion of Islam is the literal interpretation of Islamic scripture, such as the Quran calling for jihad.

What about the Koran calling for peace and not killing believers of the book? Why doesn't that trump your selected quotations?

Quran 15:9...

And, patternig one's self after Mahomet, who invented jihad...

Quran 33.21...

And he also let Jews and Christians live, so that's another contradiction.

10 Commandments: Thou Shall Not Murder.

Shariah Law: Shou Shall Murder...

Deuteronomy 13: When to stone your family to death.