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Is This Socialism or Capitalism?

Is this scenario an example of...?


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Xerographica

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In this thread, RGacky3 and myself are trying to discuss the problems with capitalism and socialism. Unfortunately...we are on completely different pages when it comes to definitions of socialism and capitalism. This became quite apparent when I asked him to identify whether the following scenario is an example of capitalism or socialism...

Sally is 10 and she wants to buy her mother a mother's day gift. Unfortunately...she doesn't have any money but she does have a tree full of lemons. She applies her unique perspective to her limited resources...and the result is lemonade. She sets up her lemonade stand in the front yard and proceeds to sell cups of lemonade for $1/each. It's a hot day and pretty soon she's made $20.


So I thought I'd post a poll and see how most people would classify this scenario. Is this an example of capitalism or socialism...or something else? Feel free to modify the scenario in order to make it fit your definition of capitalism/socialism.
 
It is capitalism. It uses capital to create money. Now this of course she owns the lemon tree and doesn't have to pay anyone else for it, that there aren't taxes due, etc...
 
It's capitalism until the tax officers show up demanding a trading licence. :2razz:
 
It's capitalism until the tax officers show up demanding a trading licence. :2razz:

And what about that would make it socialism? Fascism maybe, but certainly not socialism.
 
And what about that would make it socialism? Fascism maybe, but certainly not socialism.

Well, fascism is socialism too - national-socialism.
 
Well, fascism is socialism too - national-socialism.

Fascism is not merely nationalist socialism. It's also dictatorship and repressive social policy.
 
Its a silly question ... Its not an example of an economic system ... Its an example of something which can happen under socialist AND economic systems .... Its like asking bob has a party and everyone brings booze and shares it ... Is that communism??? No ... Or Jack lends mike his car ...
 

Jack lending Mike his car is the same as Sally making lemonade? Is Sally making a car the same thing as Jack lending his car to Mike?
 
this is just earning your own money.........
 
Exactly, this is not an example of socialism or capitalism .... Just like a guy in his apartment is not an example of a monarchy.
 
Exactly, this is not an example of socialism or capitalism .... Just like a guy in his apartment is not an example of a monarchy.

In this case, Sallies family owns the means of production, not the government, thus it is capitalism.
 
Not the government owning a means of production doesn't make it capitalism ....
 

How does she buy the sugar/cups/ice etc if she doesn't have any money? The fact she's picking lemons off property she doesn't own (her mother does) is pretty telling to. So you want to create a situation of a "little girl" that just pulls herself up from her bootstraps but she somehow gets money for other inputs needed and her main input isn't even hers.
 

Have you ever read I, Pencil?
 
And what about that would make it socialism? Fascism maybe, but certainly not socialism.

The little girl owns her means of production, a huge tenant of socialist and communist thought. Under Titoist thought she also manages herself, worker self management being a very important part of it.

It isn't capitalism or socialism as her actions are not systemic.
 
I just tied my shoelaces. Is my shoe -tying capitalist, or socialist?

(*&(*&#@$# silly question.

There's simply not enough information.

Girl has a lemonade stand, because she "needs to make as much money as she can." ? So far that looks capitalist, because the primary goal seems to be private profit.

Girl has a lemonade stand, because she "needs to make as much money as she can to help Grandma pay for her operation" ? Oops...now she's actually running the stand for some other purpose (fundraising), in order to obtain a need (medical care) for someone else...no longer capitalist.

This could go back and forth.

hikari nailed it...we're not looking at a systemic picture yet, and so if all we have is a micro-scale picture, we don't have the basic details figured out.
 
It is capitalism. It uses capital to create money. Now this of course she owns the lemon tree and doesn't have to pay anyone else for it, that there aren't taxes due, etc...
Her parents own the tree and all the lemonade-making equipment. They are her nanny state. Just as with inheritance, public or private doesn't matter; it's all the same freeloading by the recipient. Her entrepreneurship is discredited because it is so much easier for her than for the other kids, just as it was for the millionaire's son Bill Gates and most of our other falsely self-reliant heroes.
 
And this is relevant to this little girl bypassing the constraint of acquiring land/capital because....

Obviously the little girl didn't bypass anything. She didn't have to purchase the inputs because her mother certainly wouldn't have accused her of stealing them.

But if you had read that essay...then you would have realized that everything requires inputs. Do you think I would argue that inputs aren't required for lemonade when they obviously were? If she didn't have the inputs then she wouldn't have been able to make the lemonade. Just like if you don't have the necessary inputs then you can't make a pencil. This is the basic division of labor concept.

Your argument was an obvious reference to Elizabeth Warren's speech...

I hear all this, you know, “Well, this is class warfare, this is whatever.”—No! There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody. You built a factory out there—good for you! But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn’t have to worry that maurauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did. Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea—God bless. Keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.​

As a pragmatarian I have no problem with taxes. My issue is with people like Elizabeth Warren who somehow think they know better than 150 million taxpayers exactly which inputs from the public sector are truly necessary for the successful operation of their businesses.

If roads are truly essential for business owners to make money...then they would spend their taxes on roads. If educated workers are truly essential for business owners to make money...then they would spend their taxes on public education. If maurauding bands and fires are truly detrimental to business owners' bottom line...then they would spend their taxes on firemen and police.

But you can't say that those government inputs are essential...and then turn around and argue that taxpayers would not fund them. And to argue that Elizabeth Warren and 538 congresspeople know better than 150 million taxpayers is beyond absurd.

Nobody pulls themselves up from their bootstraps? Fine...sure...great. But if you think you know better than 150 million of our most productive citizens which public goods are truly essential for the successful operation of their businesses...then you suffer from something that Hayek referred to as the fatal conceit.

Dealing with people's fatal conceit is like being Dutch Oven'd. But nobody can clear the air better than Bastiat. He's febreze for conceit.

Apparently, then, the legislators and the organizers have received from Heaven an intelligence and virtue that place them beyond and above mankind; if so, let them show their titles to this superiority. - Frédéric Bastiat, The Law​

This means that the terraces of the Champ-de-Mars are ordered first to be built up and then to be torn down. The great Napoleon, it is said, thought he was doing philanthropic work when he had ditches dug and then filled in. He also said: "What difference does the result make? All we need is to see wealth spread among the laboring classes." - Bastiat, The Seen vs the Unseen​

In the first place, justice always suffers from it somewhat. Since James Goodfellow has sweated to earn his hundred-sou piece with some satisfaction in view, he is irritated, to say the least, that the tax intervenes to take this satisfaction away from him and give it to someone else. Now, certainly it is up to those who levy the tax to give some good reasons for it. We have seen that the state gives a detestable reason when it says: "With these hundred sous I am going to put some men to work," for James Goodfellow (as soon as he has seen the light) will not fail to respond: "Good Lord! With a hundred sous I could have put them to work myself." - Frederic Bastiat, The Seen vs the Unseen​

When James Goodfellow gives a hundred sous to a government official for a really useful service, this is exactly the same as when he gives a hundred sous to a shoemaker for a pair of shoes. It's a case of give-and-take, and the score is even. But when James Goodfellow hands over a hundred sous to a government official to receive no service for it or even to be subjected to inconveniences, it is as if he were to give his money to a thief. It serves no purpose to say that the official will spend these hundred sous for the great profit of our national industry; the more the thief can do with them, the more James Goodfellow could have done with them if he had not met on his way either the extralegal or the legal parasite. - Frederic Bastiat, The Seen vs the Unseen​

Thus, considered in themselves, in their own nature, in their normal state, and apart from all abuses, public services are, like private services, purely and simply acts of exchange. - Bastiat​

If the socialists mean that under extraordinary circumstances, for urgent cases, the state should set aside some resources to assist certain unfortunate people, to help them adjust to changing conditions, we will, of course, agree. This is done now; we desire that it be done better. There is, however, a point on this road that must not be passed; it is the point where governmental foresight would step in to replace individual foresight and thus destroy it. It is quite evident that organized charity would, in this case, do much more permanent harm than temporary good. - Bastiat, Justice and Fraternity​

Treat all economic questions from the viewpoint of the consumer, for the interests of the consumer are the interests of the human race. - Bastiat​
 
And this is relevant to this little girl bypassing the constraint of acquiring land/capital because....
It's relevant following the parasites' paradigm of "bait and switch." The literally pencil-necked geek's Sally would hire a kid to pick the lemons for a penny apiece, risking falling injuries (the real Sally would use her ladder, but it's her ladder; let the other kid's Daddy buy him his own ladder). Another kid would make the lemonade, and another would stand out in the hot sun selling it. Sally would get the lion's or lyin' share of the sales revenue because she creates jobs. She's able to do this because there's no government interference; the Invisible Handout is that Sally's parents put her in a position where she can loaf and still get all the benefits of working. She's entitled because she comes from the same class that used to have titles: the nobility with no ability.
 

It's either economically feasible to pay employees higher wages...or it isn't. If you think that people should be paid more...then mortgage your own home and start a business. Put your own money where your mouth is and show everybody how easy it is to run a profitable business while paying your employees considerably more money than other companies pay their employees. You know why you won't do it? Because talk is cheap.

Can you explain to me why you feel good about yourself? Because you vote for policies that you don't have to pay for? How is there any nobility in that? Please please please explain that to me. As far as I'm concerned...you have absolutely no justification for any moral superiority.

Only where we ourselves are responsible for our own interests and are free to sacrifice them has our decision moral value. We are neither entitled to be unselfish at someone else's expense nor is there any merit in being unselfish if we have no choice. The members of a society who in all respects are made to do the good thing have no title to praise. - Hayek​

If you want to help people then provide them with employment....at ANY wage. If they accept your offer for employment then you will be helping them. You know how I know? Because you provided them with an option that they didn't have before. If they choose the option you offer them then it's because it's the best option that they have available to them. Giving people more options is giving people more freedom. That's nobility.
 
A key error in Voodoo Economics is that some imaginary entity like the free market determines the mathematically correct profit margin deserved by the owners. In truth, they set it themselves for themselves, depending on how much power they have when freed from any pressure by the employees or the employees' government. The only market force is force itself, and capital owns all the weapons of extortion. But economists, who are toy rats for the fatcats to play with, are hired to create an imaginary force of nature like the Invisible Hand (also used in voodoo itself) to cover up for what is uncontrolled greed, pure selfishness posing as an inanimate and inevitable result unaffected by elitist power plays.
 

Do you want more for less? If your answer is no...then please paypal me $5 and I'll paypal you $1. If your answer is yes...then please paypal me $1 and I'll paypal you $5.

The only logical/rational answer is "yes"...that you do want more for less. The invisible hand is simply people like you actively trying to trade less for more. Your profit seeking decisions help us understand that limited resources are constantly being redistributed to the most resourceful / least wasteful people in our society...aka "fatcats". The reason those cats are fat is because you exchanged your money for their products/services.

"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for it." - Henry David Thoreau

In other words...the reason those cats are fat is because you voluntarily exchanged a portion of your life for their products/services. You voluntarily exchanged a portion of your life for their products/services because you want more for less. The invisible hand works because you are given the freedom to determine what your life is worth. The alternative is to allow somebody else to determine what your life is worth...aka socialism/slavery. Why is it difficult for you to understand that nobody knows better than you do what your life is worth? Is that really rocket science?

By arguing for minimum wages...you're arguing that you know what other people's lives are worth. But if you're certain that their lives are worth more than the minimum wage...then why not allow them to be the judges of that? The only logical explanation is because you think you know better than they do what their lives are worth. How is that not slavery? You're limiting their options in life because you think you know what's best for them. Limiting people options in life...limiting people's freedom to exchange less for more...really really really should not make you feel morally superior.
 
"Free market" is a contradiction in terms, because the market includes everybody but this freedom is demanded for only a few. The actual market imitates the movie "Born Free," where a bloodthirsty maneating beast was turned loose into the jungle. For any others freed into this situation, the freedom means becoming the lion's lunch. Market Freedom in this command economy from the Wall Streed Kremlin would free the majority of its weapons of defense in the government, unions, or mutual-aid groups.

Fat cats love mice and the free market is a mouse trap. The predators demand we quit speaking back to them and start squeaking at their command.
 
Well, fascism is socialism too - national-socialism.

This is absurd. Fascism is a right wing ideology and socialism is a left wing.

NAZI (National Socialism) had not marks of socialism in it. in fact it send every socialist it could find to the camps.

It was a term not a philosophy or ideology. It was put out there so it would seem more palitable to the populace.
 
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