IS THIS A NEW LOW FOR PRO-CHOICE ADVOCATES

[weaver2]

Thank you for the clarification. Of course, those who are pro-choice are not any more entitled to force their beliefs on others, and I'm sure you acknowledge this too.

How about some examples if you really believe pro-choice is forcing anti-abortion advocates into believing something they don't want to believe. Posting religious views as facts and having a pro-choice advocate correct the statement is not forcing a view on anyone. It's simply keeping the discussion fact based. If you want to post religious dogma as truth then you should be posting on the Religion sub forum, not Abortion.

 

[Gordy327]

I believe in free will. God gives us a choice. As for religion, Jesus said he is the only way to heaven. I believe him so I repeat what he said. That’s the truth and you don’t like it.

An omnipotent, omniscient God negates the possibility of free will. Just because you believe something as "truth" doesn't make it truth.

 

[jgarden47]

1) Despite repeated attempts to overturn Roe v Wade since 1973, apparently the ProLife lobby failed to get the memo that merely passing legislation limiting/prohibiting access to abortion only serves as "window-dressing" for conservative politicians - as the graph indicates, it has never served as an effective deterrent!

2) Apparently the conservative members of the US Supreme Court, Republican governors and GOP state politicians are all of the opinion that Americans young women in the 21stC will serve as the exceptions to the rule - more passive and compliant than their international counterparts, when it comes to allowing anti-abortion legislation to influence their decisions!

3) Having effectively ignored a wide range of approaches that would have been more productive in convincing young women, voluntarily, to proceed with full-term pregnancies, ProLife supporters have, in their infinite wisdom, dedicated the past 49 years going down this Supreme Court "RABBIT HOLE!"

4) Given the long history of American citizens resisting misguided government attempts to legislate morality, it should come as no surprise when history adds this failed attempt to the list - another "exercise in futility!"

 

[weaver2]

I believe in free will. God gives us a choice.

And I choose not to participate in your brand of religion.

As for religion, Jesus said he is the only way to heaven.

There are as many ways into heaven as there are religions and denominations of religions.

I believe him so I repeat what he said. That’s the truth and you don’t like it.

That's your truth. I don't like it or dislike it. I'm just tired of being told if I don't believe your way I'm going to hell. How you get to heaven is none of my business until you start telling me what I have to do to get into your heaven.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Thank you for the clarification. Of course, those who are pro-choice are not any more entitled to force their beliefs on others, and I'm sure you acknowledge this too.

I don't force my beliefs on others. I have NO intention of forcing anyone to get an abortion or marry a same sex partner or whatever. It the religious that expect others to live by their values and rules even though many of them can't live up to them themselves. Freedom's a bitch, I guess.

 

[Crunchtime]

An omnipotent, omniscient God negates the possibility of free will. Just because you believe something as "truth" doesn't make it truth.

You’re wrong about that. All through the Bible there are examples of God giving men the choice to choose life over death. The option to repent or go their own way. Life is full of choices.

 

[Crunchtime]

I don't force my beliefs on others. I have NO intention of forcing anyone to get an abortion or marry a same sex partner or whatever. It the religious that expect others to live by their values and rules even though many of them can't live up to them themselves. Freedom's a bitch, I guess.

No true Christian lives by their own values. We do our best to live according to Gods values and encourage others to do the same. We all fall short.

 

[Gordy327]

You’re wrong about that. All through the Bible there are examples of God giving men the choice to choose life over death. The option to repent or go their own way. Life is full of choices.

Not if God already knows the choice in advance with absolute certainty before we're even born or before the universe was created.

 

[Davin]

Of course, those who are pro-choice are not any more entitled to force their beliefs on others, and I'm sure you acknowledge this too.

Which Pro-Choice people are forcing you to have an abortion? Because THAT would be forcing their beliefs onto you, not what you just wrote. In other words it is STILL the pro-life people that are forcing their beliefs on others, not the other way around.

 

[Crunchtime]

View attachment 67415249
1) Despite repeated attempts to overturn Roe v Wade since 1973, apparently the ProLife lobby failed to get the memo that merely passing legislation limiting/prohibiting access to abortion only serves as "window-dressing" for conservative politicians - as the graph indicates, it has never served as an effective deterrent!

2) Apparently the conservative members of the US Supreme Court, Republican governors and GOP state politicians are all of the opinion that Americans young women in the 21stC will serve as the exceptions to the rule - more passive and compliant than their international counterparts, when it comes to allowing anti-abortion legislation to influence their decisions!

3) Having effectively ignored a wide range of approaches that would have been more productive in convincing young women, voluntarily, to proceed with full-term pregnancies, ProLife supporters have, in their infinite wisdom, dedicated the past 49 years going down this Supreme Court "RABBIT HOLE!"

4) Given the long history of American citizens resisting misguided government attempts to legislate morality, it should come as no surprise when history adds this failed attempt to the list - another "exercise in futility!"

Not if God already knows the choice in advance with absolute certainty before we're even born or before the universe was created.

You’re wrong. You don’t understand. I’m not going to explain it to someone that doesn’t want to believe it.

 

[Gordy327]

You’re wrong. You don’t understand. I’m not going to explain it to someone that doesn’t want to believe it.

Belief is irrelevant. It's about what is logically demonstrable. Belief is just convincing oneself of something. Sure one can "believe" there's a choice, but its illogical.

 

[choiceone]

You have to be a blood bought born again Christian. Otherwise it’s not the Holy Spirit.

If the spirit in you can't spiritually heal the objective empirical illnesses of others instantaneously and in public, there's not a single reason any true follower of Jesus Christ would believe you. He said if you believed on him and the works that he did, the works that he did you could do also and he told his followers that they could heal in his name.

If you've never done that, even a tiny bit, there's no evidence anywhere in the universe that you have in you the Spirit that was in Jesus Christ. So you don't get any more special consideration on these posts than anyone else. I actually was able to, a tiny bit, but I don't seek any more special consideration than anyone else.

I rather like the Mahayana Buddhist approach, which doesn't make people demand special consideration.
If one really attains to the point of Enlightenment but holds it off until all the creatures can attain it together, that one can make a merit field where it will be easy for all to do that, and all that can be saved will be saved.

It is actually easy to see that Jesus Christ did this. One Buddhist from Myanmar told me that, in the Theravada Buddhism there, the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ is respected as a great Enlightenment, and there are Mahayana Buddhists who have identified Christ with Amitabha Bodhisattva, who laid down his kingdom to save the world.

Such Buddhists are those who deeply respect Jesus Christ, just as some Christians deeply respect Sakyamuni Buddha, Amitabha/Amida Buddha, etc. Others, of course, on both sides, are just groupy ideologists.

 

[bomberfox]

I think it might simply because many people don't like Scripture being bastardized in this way. As the priest said in the cited article, "The most basic level of loving your neighbor as yourself is not killing your neighbor, yet that's exactly what abortion does."

Well many abortions involve an already dead or miscarried fetus. This is the deceit of calling abortion murder.

 

[bomberfox]

Unfortunately the moronic Christian talking heads are speaking to a power base big enough to create bills, pass legislation and place similar moronic Christian talking heads on the Supreme Court.

A study on the % of the population that it takes to effect change was done and reported in "Science"a highly respected journal of scientific science reporting and heavily juried articles.The study found that it takes only 25% of a population to change the course of direction of a population.

Scientific American: The 25% Revolution—How Big Does a Minority Have to Be to Reshape Society? - Center for Health Incentives and Behavioral Economics (CHIBE)

“A new study about the power of committed minorities to shift conventional thinking offers some surprising possible answers. Published this week in Science, the paper describes an online experiment in which researchers sought to determine what percentage of total population a minority needs to...

chibe.upenn.edu

According to "FiveThirtyEight" as of September 24 2022 Trump has a favorability rating of 43%. That's more than the 255 needed to effect radical change. Even if he is not elected president in 2024 there are Senators and Representatives that are legislating his political agenda.

The talking heads on Fox may be moronic but they are a political force whether we approve of them or not. The only recourse to their Christian theo-oligarchy is to vote for candidates that are not fighting for a dystopian religious America.

Oh i can think of quite a few other recourses ,

 

[choiceone]

Abortion is more than a cause for you.

I have been pro-choice since the first moment I ever knew there was such a thing as an anti-abortion law. I read in the paper that Texas TV child show host Sherri Finkbine, mother of five or six already, was pregnant with a fetus horribly deformed by thalidomide and had to leave the US and go to Sweden to have an abortion.

In those days, some American women also went to Japan, because Japan had a very liberal abortion law from 1949, during the US Occupation. The US Occupation let the government make that law for many reasons, but the best US reasons were: 1) There was a horrible rate of rape of Japanese girls and women by GIs; 2) The Occupation allowed GIs to marry Japanese women but until 1952 didn't allow them to take them back to the US as wives; 3) There was mass starvation and poverty so severe it would horrify you, resulting in much more serious pregnancy problems harming the health/life of women. The spread of rape victims' and abandoned wives' suicides and of dangerous illegal abortion came from these, among other, problems.

The US government thus let there be a liberal abortion law for women in Japan, but not for American women rape impregnated, abandoned in extreme poverty, or with terrible health challenges. This was wrong.

The reason I knew anti-abortion laws were wrong was because I was raised a Protestant Christian who was taught that your own sex organs belonged to you and no one else had a right to touch them. I was more horrified by the anti-abortion laws of the US than almost any social phenomenon. They were Naziesque. They were against God. I still think so.

 

[choiceone]

You need laws to hold your own opinion?

No, we need laws to prevent other people from using embryos and fetuses as rape tools to rape girls and women against their will until the latter give them babies.

 

[choiceone]

Thank you for the clarification. Of course, those who are pro-choice are not any more entitled to force their beliefs on others, and I'm sure you acknowledge this too.

Pro-choice people are NOT forcing their beliefs on others. That's the point. When laws are pro-choice, each separate individual can act in accord with what she believes and each doctor can do so, too. When laws aren't pro-choice, they force one belief on all the separate individuals and doctors.

Actually, that's why the so-called pro-life feminists don't want to make it a crime for a woman to have an abortion, only for a doctor to perform one.

But I think that every person who contributes to such a law deserves to be refused any medical treatment whatever in any medical emergency for this arrogance. Break a leg by accident? Have an exploding appendix? It's okay because everything natural is good, so go get healed by a legislator with an IQ that would disqualify him for pre-med and can't heal his way out of a paper bag.

 

[choiceone]

Whatever you say, Lursa. I asked Hari Seldon for a clarification and then expanded what he said. Trying to impose one's will/opinion on others is not exclusive to any one side of any issue.

This is ideological BS.

 

[choiceone]

I believe in free will. God gives us a choice. As for religion, Jesus said he is the only way to heaven. I believe him so I repeat what he said. That’s the truth and you don’t like it.

Jesus never said anything about abortion.

 

[Hari Seldon]

No true Christian lives by their own values. We do our best to live according to Gods values and encourage others to do the same. We all fall short.

If that is what you believe, knock yourself out. Just don't force those values and beliefs on me and mine. I don't share your values or belief system and we live in a country governed by a constitution which has NO mention of God or any specific religion. We each get to choose.

 

[choiceone]

An omnipotent, omniscient God negates the possibility of free will. Just because you believe something as "truth" doesn't make it truth.

I disagree with the wording. An infinitely powerful God can choose to confer free will on creatures. An infinitely intelligent God and infinite Truth can encompass within God's universe new free expressions of creatures. Of course, just because I believe it doesn't make it true. But it's not contradictory.

 

[choiceone]

Not if God already knows the choice in advance with absolute certainty before we're even born or before the universe was created.

You are conceptualizing God differently. Omniscient Mind and Infinite True Intelligent Mind are not the same. You are making God a reader of an already written novel. But God can be actively writing the novel. Of course, you can be a determinist if you want, but when you put a fixed boundary around it, it's not infinite.

 

[nota bene]

How about some examples if you really believe pro-choice is forcing anti-abortion advocates into believing something they don't want to believe. Posting religious views as facts and having a pro-choice advocate correct the statement is not forcing a view on anyone. It's simply keeping the discussion fact based. If you want to post religious dogma as truth then you should be posting on the Religion sub forum, not Abortion.

I'm not sure why you are instructing me on where to post; I've not offered any religious dogma, period.

 

[nota bene]

Which Pro-Choice people are forcing you to have an abortion? Because THAT would be forcing their beliefs onto you, not what you just wrote. In other words it is STILL the pro-life people that are forcing their beliefs on others, not the other way around.

I understand perfectly: You are not able to acknowledge the possibility of anything other than your own opinions. Those who are pro-choice would never try to impose their beliefs on anybody else; all those who are pro-life are trying to force others to accept their opinions. Got it.

 

[nota bene]

Well many abortions involve an already dead or miscarried fetus. This is the deceit of calling abortion murder.

I'm pretty sure that most people when referring to elective abortion are not referring to an already dead or miscarried fetus.