Is there such a thing as a truly selfless act?

[Dr_Patrick]

I was just having a debate about this with a friend and thought it would be an interesting discussion to have here. Do you believe that true altruism exists or do you think that it is unrealistic?
Personally, I don't think there is such a thing as a purely selfless act because in the end we are always our own motivator. There may be other outside factors involved in motivating us, which would imply that there are varying degrees of selfishness and that acts like giving to charity or helping others would be far less selfish than manipulating someone or stealing something for yourself.

 

[Gabby]

I voted no because I watched (and participated) in this same debate years ago on a different debate board and I'll just say, it went on for DAYS and it went really BAD at one point. :lol: But in the end, I couldn't argue against the ultimate selfishness in every act.

 

[Iriemon]

I was just having a debate about this with a friend and thought it would be an interesting discussion to have here. Do you believe that true altruism exists or do you think that it is unrealistic?
Personally, I don't think there is such a thing as a purely selfless act because in the end we are always our own motivator. There may be other outside factors involved in motivating us, which would imply that there are varying degrees of selfishness and that acts like giving to charity or helping others would be far less selfish than manipulating someone or stealing something for yourself.

If you define any voluntary act as being selfish because the actor made the decision to do it, then by definition there is no purely selfless act. However, why cannot a person make a decision to do an act that is based on purely selfless reasons?

 

[Dr_Patrick]

If you define any voluntary act as being selfish because the actor made the decision to do it, then by definition there is no purely selfless act. However, why cannot a person make a decision to do an act that is based on purely selfless reasons?

What reasons would those be? They are based on the person's viewpoint and their motivation to do the act would still make it a selfish act. I think the term selfish gets a bad rap and has been given an automatically negative connotation. I think, by our very nature, we are selfish creatures. I don't think there's anything wrong with that either. I just think we should be honest about it.

 

[Iriemon]

What reasons would those be? They are based on the person's viewpoint and their motivation to do the act would still make it a selfish act.

How so? Guy jumps on a hand grenade to save his buddies' lives. That is a selfish act because ipso facto he decided to do it?

 

[Cephus]

How so? Guy jumps on a hand grenade to save his buddies' lives. That is a selfish act because ipso facto he decided to do it?

Even the guy who jumps on a grenade may achieve something from their act, either because they think they'll be considered a hero or because they're trying to kiss up to an imaginary god, etc. Even if it's just personal satisfaction, that's something they take from it and therefore, it is not a completely selfless act.

 

[Dr_Patrick]

How so? Guy jumps on a hand grenade to save his buddies' lives. That is a selfish act because ipso facto he decided to do it?

No, it's selfish because he did it based on his feelings and care for his buddy. Like I said in the original post, there are varying degrees of selfishness. Selfish acts aren't necessarily bad.

 

[Iriemon]

No, it's selfish because he did it based on his feelings and care for his buddy. Like I said in the original post, there are varying degrees of selfishness. Selfish acts aren't necessarily bad.

That was the point I made. Sacrificing one's only life for others can only be deemed selfish if you say ipso facto say that because he decided to do it it must be selfish.

If that is the definition you start with a priori, then by definition every act is selfish and there is no debate.

If you do not start with the condition that one's voluntary act are by definition selfish because he made the decision to act, then it's hard for me to see how a decision to sacrifice your life for others is necessarily a selfish act.

 

[Iriemon]

Even the guy who jumps on a grenade may achieve something from their act, either because they think they'll be considered a hero or because they're trying to kiss up to an imaginary god, etc. Even if it's just personal satisfaction, that's something they take from it and therefore, it is not a completely selfless act.

No, it's selfish because he did it based on his feelings and care for his buddy. Like I said in the original post, there are varying degrees of selfishness. Selfish acts aren't necessarily bad.

There have certainly been instances were people have sacrificed themselves for strangers and where they were not religious.

 

[faminedynasty]

No, it's selfish because he did it based on his feelings and care for his buddy.

As always happens in these debates (usually when the grenade issue is raised) you have stretched the definition of selfishness far beyond the common conceptual understanding of the term. His supposed selfishness is based on HIS care for OTHERS and is selfish simply because it is his. But in fact his concern was for others, their safety and well-being and was therefore not all about him. And I don't think that fits a fair definition of selfishness, nor the conceptual understanding of the common, sensible man.

 

[Dr_Patrick]

That was the point I made. Sacrificing one's only life for others can only be deemed selfish if you say ipso facto say that because he decided to do it it must be selfish.

If that is the definition you start with a priori, then by definition every act is selfish and there is no debate.

If you do not start with the condition that one's voluntary act are by definition selfish because he made the decision to act, then it's hard for me to see how a decision to sacrifice your life for others is necessarily a selfish act.

By definition it is a selfish act because he chose to do what he felt was the right thing. The only way it could even be considered selfless is if it was an involuntary act.

 

[Dr_Patrick]

As always happens in these debates (usually when the grenade issue is raised) you have stretched the definition of selfishness far beyond the common conceptual understanding of the term. His supposed selfishness is based on HIS care for OTHERS and is selfish simply because it is his. But in fact his concern was for others, their safety and well-being and was therefore not all about him. And I don't think that fits a fair definition of selfishness, nor the conceptual understanding of the common, sensible man.

I haven't stretched anything. My point is that there is no such thing as a purely selfless act. Granted, there are varying degrees of selfishness in all of our actions, but they are still seflish acts. The problem is that we've given the word "selfish" a negative connotation. Selfishness isn't necessarily a bad thing. It is a part of our nature.

 

[WI Crippler]

By definition it is a selfish act because he chose to do what he felt was the right thing. The only way it could even be considered selfless is if it was an involuntary act.

So the only selfless acts are hiccups and other muscle spasms?

 

[Trinity]

heh, no I think yes there r many selfless acts done everyday for many ppl around the world.

Some choose greatness.

I give an example. A bullet comes for a person standing next to u. He/she does not notice it in time to move away from it, u r the only one who can push him/her out of the way but in so doing, u get hit by that bullet.

Would u sacrifice yrself? This person isn't friend or family but a complete stranger.

I would. I already made this decision a long time back. I would not regret it either.

Why? Was there a reason for doing so?

My reasoning is it would buy them some time to think about accepting God if they r not Christian. Even if they r Christian, it would buy them more time to do the things they need to do here on earth. Since I have made up my mind where I am going and I am at peace, I have no qualms of going at all. Few ppl have lived an unregretful life in which they have achieved a very fruitful lifetime. Many would not go in peace. I would so I don't mind going for them.

Would there be gain? Yes. On their part. Would there be loss? Yes, on my part. Is it a fair trade? (For everything comes at a price.) .... Yes, I think so.

 

[faminedynasty]

By definition it is a selfish act because he chose to do what he felt was the right thing. The only way it could even be considered selfless is if it was an involuntary act.

Again, you are stretching. It seems as if you are asserting that any act is a selfish act simply because there is a self involved. you seem to suggest that since a given self has made value judgements of any kind it must therefore be a selfish act.
If you are arguing that we can each be divided into a unit called a "self" and that we are in this sense self-like or selfish, well, that's not especially controversial, at least not in western philosphy.
But man is a being capable of valuing other things more than himself, and is morally obligated to do so, lest he be selfish and count himself more valuable than the rest of the world. This valuing of things above oneself--be it his country, his wife, his child, God, la resistance, his comrades he hurles himself onto the grenade to save--is by any sensible definition NOT selfish, and altruism is central to any coherent system of morality.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I always enjoy this debate. MC.no.spin and I did it about 6-7 months ago, somewhere, either on the forum or in PM. When doing it, I do not like using the word "selfish": as some have said, it stretches the meaning of the word. Though not incorrect, it tends lead the debate into an argument of semantics.

Here is my position. Each and every behavior we do is done to, at least in part, give ourselves something. All of our behaviors involve transactions: the other person gets something, we get something. The laying on a grenade example is the classic point of contention. If someone lays on a grenade for someone they do not know, what do they get out of it? The transaction yields them a sense of selflessness, a good feeling of doing something for someone else, validation of their feeling of being a good person, or possible other things. Notice the transaction. Each actor in the scenario receives something. Even if this is momentary, occurring just an instant before they are blown into a million pieces, this is what the person gets from the transaction.

 

[Dr_Patrick]

I always enjoy this debate. MC.no.spin and I did it about 6-7 months ago, somewhere, either on the forum or in PM. When doing it, I do not like using the word "selfish": as some have said, it stretches the meaning of the word. Though not incorrect, it tends lead the debate into an argument of semantics.

Here is my position. Each and every behavior we do is done to, at least in part, give ourselves something. All of our behaviors involve transactions: the other person gets something, we get something. The laying on a grenade example is the classic point of contention. If someone lays on a grenade for someone they do not know, what do they get out of it? The transaction yields them a sense of selflessness, a good feeling of doing something for someone else, validation of their feeling of being a good person, or possible other things. Notice the transaction. Each actor in the scenario receives something. Even if this is momentary, occurring just an instant before they are blown into a million pieces, this is what the person gets from the transaction.

Very very well put. :bravo:

 

[Trinity]

heh, but what other ppl u sacrificed yr life for will gain from yr act of sacrifice... maybe helping others, doing something they would regret not doing b4 they left this earth, saying "I love u" to somebody they always wanted to say to or fulfill their dreams, or accepting God or putting their lives to better use and becoming better ppl.... all these from the 'extra time' u bought their lives for made yr sacrifice worth it. For my case, even if nothing special came out of it, the act of doing the sacrifice is the right thing to do for me when placed in such a position.

Like what Bruce Willis said in Sin City ... "a young girl lives, an old man dies... Good trade."

Sin City Link : Sin City (2005)

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

For my case, even if nothing special came out of it, the act of doing the sacrifice is the right thing to do for me when placed in such a position.

Why is it "the right thing to do"?

 

[Trinity]

Why is it "the right thing to do"?

It is very wrong not to do it, would go against everything I believe and do in my life.

In life, if u know there is something u can do and not help when u can, is quite evil to me that is It is like seeing somebody bleed to death when u know u have a bandaid. And u kept quiet.

After that, it is hard to live with yrself knowing u could have done something to help them but u didn't cos u chose not to out of selfishness.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

It is very wrong not to do it, would go against everything I believe and do in my life.

In life, if u know there is something u can do and not help when u can, is quite evil to me that is It is like seeing somebody bleed to death when u know u have a bandaid. And u kept quiet.

After that, it is hard to live with yrself knowing u could have done something to help them but u didn't cos u chose not to out of selfishness.

So, you would help that person so you could live with yourself. There's your transaction, and what you are getting from the situation.

See how this works?

 

[Trinity]

Maybe, but that does not remove any value from the sacrifice. Added time to yr life IS added time to yr life. If u were to die and a doctor prolonged yr life, would u be any less grateful to him cos he drew a paycheck? Nah

Same with somebody who indeed saved yr life and sacrificed theirs.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Maybe, but that does not remove any value from the sacrifice. Added time to yr life IS added time to yr life. If u were to die and a doctor prolonged yr life, would u be any less grateful to him cos he drew a paycheck? Nah

Same with somebody who indeed saved yr life and sacrificed theirs.

You are correct. But we are not discussing value, here. We are discussing whether or not the giver, also get something out of the act. The giver does, and you seem to agree.

 

[Trinity]

You are correct. But we are not discussing value, here. We are discussing whether or not the giver, also get something out of the act. The giver does, and you seem to agree.

There will be loss and gain (on different parties involved) and it is always a good trade. Doing good always brings something of value, never bad.

 

[TOJ]

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - self·ish /ˈsɛlfɪʃ/ Pronunciation –adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
2. characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself

So is the person doing a charitable act concerned only about themself without regard to others?

Most people think being selfish is a bad thing, at least in others. So if every charible act is selfish and being selfish is bad, maybe folks should quit being charitable?