Is there no inconsistency in Zimmerman's story?

[Simon W. Moon]

That is 100% wrong. People who know nothing about guns and nothing about fighting are the only people making such an impossibility claim.

Jerry said it couldn't be done, iirc. And he liked this post.
Not sure what to make of that. Is Jerry telling us that he knows nothing about guns?

He could have easily wedged TMs arm by merely slightly rolling, then rolling back after gaining control of the gun and firing.

Try it. If your arms is against your side you can't reach that part of your waist. Adding a roll to GZ's story doesn't change the length of your forearm. It just means that you'd be laying on top of the weapon you can't reach.
Just try it. Put a pistol on your right hip. Roll on you right hip with your elbow at your side. Now, you're on your gun and you hand is below your waist line. To grab the gun you have to roll off of it and lift your elbow away from you side.
You can't grab it while you're laying on it and your hand cant reach it.
This is true for most of us with regularly proportioned arms and torsos.

Of course, ymmv.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Ahh... a rational person..... (This thread is too long for the recently joined like me to re-read, if you've already covered it, please just point me to the previous post, but...)
What points do you have that don't match. I'd like to see just how important/significant the points that don't match really are.

It has more to do with what he provides as his rationale for various things.

He tells us that he's out of his vehicle and across the block because the NEN is asking him more than once for an address. GZ tells us with emphasis that the NEN said "We need and address" and related things.

Based on the time demonstrated on the NEN recording and GZ version in his re-enactment, GZ was on about his business on the opposite side of the block before the discussion about where to meet the police even occurred.
Since he was already there before the request for a location to meet the cops occurred, it doesn't seem likely that he went there as a response to request that had yet to occur.
Next, the reason he gave for going across the block was that he needed to get and address from a "street sign" to give to the NEN who had asked and told GZ that they "needed" one. [Which of course is not actually a part of the call. Nor are the quotes that GZ offers us from the call]
GZ was already across the block when this conversation happened. If he wanted to give and address from that side of the block, he was there already. But instead, he gives directions to his truck.

So he gave us incorrect information about why he was where he was. He squarely placed the cause for him being across the block on the requests/demands of the NEN. But that request hadn't happened yet.
He already was where he could accomplish his stated goal when the conversation about where to meet the police actually did occur. But rather than use the information he had presciently crossed the block for, he offers directions to where his truck actually is [which makes much more sense to do than telling the police where you're not, imho].

He's fabricating of confabulating the reasons why he ended up where he was.

IDK what he was really doing.
Idk for sure why he went across the block.
I suspect he told us about how the NEN needed an address and created the story about the street sign and an address because thought he had to cover something up.
I also suspect that the covering up is worse for his case than w/e he was covering may be, because...
Afaict, if GZ was unable to get away and TM was reaching for his gun telling GZ that GZ was going to die tonight, that justifies the shooting pretty much no matter what GZ had been doing before.

 

[joko104]

Ummm, Zimmerman did not describe what you are claiming. He said he pinned Trayvon's hand with his own elbow as he grabbed his gun. He even demonstrated this action for police and even his elbow left his side. That would have freed up Trayvon's hand. Plus, Trayvon had his other hand which was free. Clearly, Trayvon did not see the gun as Zimmerman claims; clearly, there was no struggle for the gun; clearly, Zimmerman is making **** up to save his own skin.

So you are saying that it can not be claimed TM was still down on GZ because TM saw GZ had a gun? Well, then strike another blow against the prosecution being then TM had NO reason to still be over GZ!

Since, as you say, TM didn't know GZ had a gun, why didn't TM step back after knocking GZ down? Other than wanting to continue to violently assault GZ for joy, robbery or other ongoing criminal assault?

 

[Caine]

It has more to do with what he provides as his rationale for various things.

He tells us that he's out of his vehicle and across the block because the NEN is asking him more than once for an address. GZ tells us with emphasis that the NEN said "We need and address" and related things.

Based on the time demonstrated on the NEN recording and GZ version in his re-enactment, GZ was on about his business on the opposite side of the block before the discussion about where to meet the police even occurred.
Since he was already there before the request for a location to meet the cops occurred, it doesn't seem likely that he went there as a response to request that had yet to occur.
Next, the reason he gave for going across the block was that he needed to get and address from a "street sign" to give to the NEN who had asked and told GZ that they "needed" one. [Which of course is not actually a part of the call. Nor are the quotes that GZ offers us from the call]
GZ was already across the block when this conversation happened. If he wanted to give and address from that side of the block, he was there already. But instead, he gives directions to his truck.

So he gave us incorrect information about why he was where he was. He squarely placed the cause for him being across the block on the requests/demands of the NEN. But that request hadn't happened yet.
He already was where he could accomplish his stated goal when the conversation about where to meet the police actually did occur. But rather than use the information he had presciently crossed the block for, he offers directions to where his truck actually is [which makes much more sense to do than telling the police where you're not, imho].

He's fabricating of confabulating the reasons why he ended up where he was.

IDK what he was really doing.
Idk for sure why he went across the block.
I suspect he told us about how the NEN needed an address and created the story about the street sign and an address because thought he had to cover something up.
I also suspect that the covering up is worse for his case than w/e he was covering may be, because...
Afaict, if GZ was unable to get away and TM was reaching for his gun telling GZ that GZ was going to die tonight, that justifies the shooting pretty much no matter what GZ had been doing before.

That could be a legitimate point, or just confusion on his part. Confusion of the chronological order of the questioning.

It does suffice to say, as you did, that this particular piece of information isn't all that great in the grand scheme of things.

We all know he was an idiot for originally trying to track down Martin and keep observation on him, not criminal, just dumb.

 

[Redbeard]

The death of another human being, at one's own hands, for the first time in one's life can have quite a traumatic effect. For some individuals, the gravity of the situation may take effect immediately, others may take several hours, but a memory spanning a lifetime. Each persons actions/reactions will vary. Holding one to a photographic memory after experiencing such a traumatic event, should not be expected, but would certainly weigh heavily and be foremost in their mind, but not the chronological order of events or wording.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

So you are saying that it can not be claimed TM was still down on GZ because TM saw GZ had a gun? Well, then strike another blow against the prosecution being then TM had NO reason to still be over GZ!

Since, as you say, TM didn't know GZ had a gun, why didn't TM step back after knocking GZ down? Other than wanting to continue to violently assault GZ for joy, robbery or other ongoing criminal assault?

There's no proof that Trayvon was violently assaulting Zimmerman. The two spall cuts on the back of Zimmerman's head do not prove Trayvon was repeatedly slamming Zimmerman's head on concrete, where the injuries to Zimmerman's head would have been far worse. And the few scratches on his face do not prove Trayvon was pummeling his face as many as two dozen times.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

The death of another human being, at one's own hands, for the first time in one's life can have quite a traumatic effect. For some individuals, the gravity of the situation may take effect immediately, others may take several hours, but a memory spanning a lifetime. Each persons actions/reactions will vary. Holding one to a photographic memory after experiencing such a traumatic event, should not be expected, but would certainly weigh heavily and be foremost in their mind, but not the chronological order of events or wording.

His actual reason for getting out of his SUV is known to no one better than himself. He knows why he got out of his SUV. I can understand there can be some inconsistencies in some detail involving chronology, however, the reason for why got out of his truck is not subject to inconsistency. In other words, an honest person may struggle to recall when events occurred, but not why events occurred. Again, he knows why he got out of his vehicle. He told police the reason was not to follow Trayvon, but to acquire a street address for arriving police, at the request of the 911 dispatcher. I can accept he doesn't recall the 911 dispatcher actually made that request after he'd already left his SUV, but now we're speaking to the intent for why he left his SUV. Since the request did indeed come after, getting out of his car to meet the 911 dispatcher's request was clearly not what motivated him to get out of his car. So what did motivate him?

Well he complained that "these assholes, they always get away," followed up with "s---, he's running," at precisely the moment he got out of his car. That was immediately followed with wind noise as though he were walking fast or even running ... culminating with him confessing, "yes," to the question, "are you following him?"

There is no question that the reason George Zimmerman got out of his car was to follow Trayvon Martin when he observed the teen take off running ... yet he denied that was the reason to police. Add to that his lame excuses for why he didn't simply get the address about 30 feet away from his truck on the building nearest him when he first took after Trayvon by foot, which is where he told 911 to send the police; but instead walked past that address to find one on the next block over -- only to not report that address to the 911 dispatcher even though he was still on the phone with 911, and it's clear he's lying because he's trying his best to conceal that he was following Trayvon, when everyone paying any attention to this case knows that's exactly what he was doing.

 

[joko104]

There's no proof that Trayvon was violently assaulting Zimmerman. The two spall cuts on the back of Zimmerman's head do not prove Trayvon was repeatedly slamming Zimmerman's head on concrete, where the injuries to Zimmerman's head would have been far worse. And the few scratches on his face do not prove Trayvon was pummeling his face as many as two dozen times.

Interesting how you change the known fact that GZ had a broken nose and two black eyes to a "few scratched on his face." That does tell of legitimacy of your messages, doesn't it?

I don't think GZ was slugged in the face 2 dozen times. What most likely was happening was TM was using the palm of his hand to try to shove GZ's broken nose back into his brain, which would be consistent with 1.) being hit many times but no indications of a large number of fist-hits, 2.) GZ believing he was hit in the face many times, and 3.) GZ's claim that TM said that GZ was going to die. Slamming the palm upwards against an already broken nose is a well know death-blow. But we'll never know one way or the other.

A broken nose, two black eyes and two cuts on the back of the head from concrete is a "violent assault." Such levels of head paid - front and back - would cause a person to believe they were being seriously injured in the least and to instinctly do anything in self defense. Whether the injuries were later determined by professionals to be life threatening or not have no relevancy whatsoever. GZ isn't a doctor and nothing indicates that TM stopped, handed GZ a couple of mirrors and gave him time to examine his injuries to determine how serious they were.

Only an insane person or someone totally immobilized with fear in the most literally sense would not do anything to stop such an assault - whether two dozen times or only to the point of a smashed and broken nose, black eyes and 2 impacts with concrete. It takes hitting a head extremely hard against concrete to actually cut the flesh as opposed to just bruising it and it is known that happened at least twice.

The only legitimate basis for a conviction if is it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt that 1.) GZ started the violences or 2.) GZ threatened great violence against TM or 3.) TM was trying to get a way, but GZ held onto him and shot him as TM was trying to pull back and get away. There is no evidence of that I've seen.

Most witnesses have been so messed and tampered with so often changing their stories as they do to be about worthless to either side.

But the cops and FBI seem to have mostly become defense witnesses. That is NOT common in criminal cases, but then it is NOT common to bypass grand juries.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Interesting how you change the known fact that GZ had a broken nose and two black eyes to a "few scratched on his face." That does tell of legitimacy of your messages, doesn't it?

Only if you've never read any of my posts where I have agreed that Trayvon punched him in the nose and broke it.

I'm talking about his face ... he had minor scratches on it which do not prove his claim that Trayvon punched him dozens of times.

I don't think GZ was slugged in the face 2 dozen times. What most likely was happening was TM was using the palm of his hand to try to shove GZ's broken nose back into his brain, which would be consistent with 1.) being hit many times but no indications of a large number of fist-hits, 2.) GZ believing he was hit in the face many times, and 3.) GZ's claim that TM said that GZ was going to die. Slamming the palm upwards against an already broken nose is a well know death-blow. But we'll never know one way or the other.

The evidence doesn't support that either. Zimmerman can't even prove his nose was broken since the tests needed to prove that conclusively were never taken.

A broken nose, two black eyes and two cuts on the back of the head from concrete is a "violent assault." Such levels of head paid - front and back - would cause a person to believe they were being seriously injured in the least and to instinctly do anything in self defense. Whether the injuries were later determined by professionals to be life threatening or not have no relevancy whatsoever. GZ isn't a doctor and nothing indicates that TM stopped, handed GZ a couple of mirrors and gave him time to examine his injuries to determine how serious they were.

Well now it will be up to a jury to decide if his injuries, which were relatively minor when speaking in terms of a life or death struggle, meet the reasonableness required by the law to justify taking Trayvon's life.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

That could be a legitimate point, or just confusion on his part. Confusion of the chronological order of the questioning.
It does suffice to say, as you did, that this particular piece of information isn't all that great in the grand scheme of things.
We all know he was an idiot for originally trying to track down Martin and keep observation on him, not criminal, just dumb.

GZ may be confused. But if he is, he is the sort of confused where you start adding things to your story which weren't there to start. He isn't merely mixing up the sequence of things. He's adding a whole new thing--going across the block in response to NEN requests.

Before he went across the block he was giving directions to his truck.
After he crossed the block he is giving directions to his truck.
There is zero indication in the NEN call that GZ was after any sort of an address from a street sign. At least I haven't noticed any.

In the re-enactment, GZ has placed undue emphasis on the NEN requesting and demanding an address from GZ--"We need an address," GZ says NEN said--when you compare GZ's story w/ the actual call, imho. He attibutes some quotes to NEN that I don't think NEN said. e.g. I don't think NEN said any variation of "We need an address."

Going across the block in response to NEN requests/demands is a post hoc explanation for his actions.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Well now it will be up to a jury to decide if his injuries, which were relatively minor when speaking in terms of a life or death struggle, meet the reasonableness required by the law to justify taking Trayvon's life.

I still don't think that GZ's injuries play as big a role in his defense as the int4rwebz seems to think they do.
TM reaching for the gun and declaring his intent to kill GZ pretty solidly covers self-defense. It's almost a textbook clear example. Given that situation, the rest of the struggle is immaterial when considering SD.
With TM declaring intent and imminently acquiring the means to carry out his intent, there don't need to be any injuries to GZ whatsoever.

 

[Furiounova]

Interesting how you change the known fact that GZ had a broken nose and two black eyes to a "few scratched on his face." That does tell of legitimacy of your messages, doesn't it?

I don't think GZ was slugged in the face 2 dozen times. What most likely was happening was TM was using the palm of his hand to try to shove GZ's broken nose back into his brain, which would be consistent with 1.) being hit many times but no indications of a large number of fist-hits, 2.) GZ believing he was hit in the face many times, and 3.) GZ's claim that TM said that GZ was going to die. Slamming the palm upwards against an already broken nose is a well know death-blow. But we'll never know one way or the other.

A broken nose, two black eyes and two cuts on the back of the head from concrete is a "violent assault." Such levels of head paid - front and back - would cause a person to believe they were being seriously injured in the least and to instinctly do anything in self defense. Whether the injuries were later determined by professionals to be life threatening or not have no relevancy whatsoever. GZ isn't a doctor and nothing indicates that TM stopped, handed GZ a couple of mirrors and gave him time to examine his injuries to determine how serious they were.

Only an insane person or someone totally immobilized with fear in the most literally sense would not do anything to stop such an assault - whether two dozen times or only to the point of a smashed and broken nose, black eyes and 2 impacts with concrete. It takes hitting a head extremely hard against concrete to actually cut the flesh as opposed to just bruising it and it is known that happened at least twice.

The only legitimate basis for a conviction if is it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt that 1.) GZ started the violences or 2.) GZ threatened great violence against TM or 3.) TM was trying to get a way, but GZ held onto him and shot him as TM was trying to pull back and get away. There is no evidence of that I've seen.

Most witnesses have been so messed and tampered with so often changing their stories as they do to be about worthless to either side.

But the cops and FBI seem to have mostly become defense witnesses. That is NOT common in criminal cases, but then it is NOT common to bypass grand juries.

It is not a known fact he had a broken nose. His doctor never stated it was definitely broken and the cops on the scene even disagreed if it was or not. I stopped reading your post with that first sentence because when you claim something as fact when in fact it is only speculation....

 

[Furiounova]

It has more to do with what he provides as his rationale for various things.

He tells us that he's out of his vehicle and across the block because the NEN is asking him more than once for an address. GZ tells us with emphasis that the NEN said "We need and address" and related things.

Based on the time demonstrated on the NEN recording and GZ version in his re-enactment, GZ was on about his business on the opposite side of the block before the discussion about where to meet the police even occurred.
Since he was already there before the request for a location to meet the cops occurred, it doesn't seem likely that he went there as a response to request that had yet to occur.
Next, the reason he gave for going across the block was that he needed to get and address from a "street sign" to give to the NEN who had asked and told GZ that they "needed" one. [Which of course is not actually a part of the call. Nor are the quotes that GZ offers us from the call]
GZ was already across the block when this conversation happened. If he wanted to give and address from that side of the block, he was there already. But instead, he gives directions to his truck.

So he gave us incorrect information about why he was where he was. He squarely placed the cause for him being across the block on the requests/demands of the NEN. But that request hadn't happened yet.
He already was where he could accomplish his stated goal when the conversation about where to meet the police actually did occur. But rather than use the information he had presciently crossed the block for, he offers directions to where his truck actually is [which makes much more sense to do than telling the police where you're not, imho].

He's fabricating of confabulating the reasons why he ended up where he was.

IDK what he was really doing.
Idk for sure why he went across the block.
I suspect he told us about how the NEN needed an address and created the story about the street sign and an address because thought he had to cover something up.
I also suspect that the covering up is worse for his case than w/e he was covering may be, because...
Afaict, if GZ was unable to get away and TM was reaching for his gun telling GZ that GZ was going to die tonight, that justifies the shooting pretty much no matter what GZ had been doing before.

There is no doubt he had a chance to escape the situation because there was an argument before the fight confirmed by several witnesses who also prove GZ lied when he claimed he only said one word before TM allegedly punched him

 

[Furiounova]

The death of another human being, at one's own hands, for the first time in one's life can have quite a traumatic effect. For some individuals, the gravity of the situation may take effect immediately, others may take several hours, but a memory spanning a lifetime. Each persons actions/reactions will vary. Holding one to a photographic memory after experiencing such a traumatic event, should not be expected, but would certainly weigh heavily and be foremost in their mind, but not the chronological order of events or wording.

He was so upset he was joking with cops a day or two after the shooting. He was so upset he expressed remorse....oh wait.....no I don't think the hoodie joke on the jail call shows remorse.

 

[Furiounova]

That could be a legitimate point, or just confusion on his part. Confusion of the chronological order of the questioning.

It does suffice to say, as you did, that this particular piece of information isn't all that great in the grand scheme of things.

We all know he was an idiot for originally trying to track down Martin and keep observation on him, not criminal, just dumb.

There are too many contradictions he gave just a couple of hours after the shooting. Plus, he had already given dispatch exact directions on how to locate him before TM ran. He gave the exact same directions again after TM ran so he obviously did not need to get out of his vehicle to give directions to dispatch.

He also said (written statement for these three points)

He could not remember the name of the street was on but he never said that on the recorded call. He also says exactly what street he is on in the Recorded Call not once but twice because he said it was the main road into the complex.

He did not know what direction TM ran but on the recorded call said it not once, but twice.

He could not give a description of the person but on the recorded call gave his age, race, and noted the button on the front of TM's hoodie.

Those are all lies designed to make it look like he was just an innocent victim.

 

[mike2810]

There is no doubt he had a chance to escape the situation because there was an argument before the fight confirmed by several witnesses who also prove GZ lied when he claimed he only said one word before TM allegedly punched him

The same could be said about TM. He could have escaped before the "alleged" thrown punch.

As far as the broken nose. From the medical report: "Broken Nose~ We discussed that it is likely broken, but does not appear to have septal devialion. The swelling and black eyes are typical of this injury. I recommended that he be evaluated by ENT but he refused."

You are correct the doctor said it was likely broken. The injuries displayed were "typical" for a broken nose.

No matter, broken or not, An allegded punch from TM did injure GZ,

So did TM not have a chance to escape or walk/run away from GZ?

 

[Redbeard]

~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~etc, etc, etc.

Myself don't pretend to know what may or may not have gone through Mr. Zimmerman's mind before, during and after the incident. Find it somewhat amusing the lengths arm chair detectives will go to contort and embellish the "known" facts to fit their narrow tunnel vision.

 

[Furiounova]

The same could be said about TM. He could have escaped before the "alleged" thrown punch.

As far as the broken nose. From the medical report: "Broken Nose~ We discussed that it is likely broken, but does not appear to have septal devialion. The swelling and black eyes are typical of this injury. I recommended that he be evaluated by ENT but he refused."

You are correct the doctor said it was likely broken. The injuries displayed were "typical" for a broken nose.

No matter, broken or not, An allegded punch from TM did injure GZ,

So did TM not have a chance to escape or walk/run away from GZ?

The same cannot be said for TM because he ran away from GZ and the next time he saw him he had a legal right to stand his ground. this is what you guys don't understand: GZ closed the distance between himself and TM after TM ran away. that proves without question he pursued him and created the confrontation.

The fact there was no blood or DNA on TM's hands, cuffs, or lower sleeves helps prove he did not punch him. It seems like the damaged nose happened during the wrestling on the ground.

 

[mike2810]

The same cannot be said for TM because he ran away from GZ and the next time he saw him he had a legal right to stand his ground. this is what you guys don't understand: GZ closed the distance between himself and TM after TM ran away. that proves without question he pursued him and created the confrontation.

The fact there was no blood or DNA on TM's hands, cuffs, or lower sleeves helps prove he did not punch him. It seems like the damaged nose happened during the wrestling on the ground.

That is your opinion. TM could have avoided the conflict.

 

[Furiounova]

Myself don't pretend to know what may or may not have gone through Mr. Zimmerman's mind before, during and after the incident. Find it somewhat amusing the lengths arm chair detectives will go to contort and embellish the "known" facts to fit their narrow tunnel vision.

We don't have to guess his state of mind nor how he viewed TM since we have all that on his recorded call. You should read Serino's investigation sometime. That is if you want to know basic information about the case.

 

[Furiounova]

That is your opinion. TM could have avoided the conflict.

My opinion is based on the law and facts so I can see why it would seem to be a very confusing framework for some people.

 

[Redbeard]

We don't have to guess his state of mind nor how he viewed TM since we have all that on his recorded call. You should read Serino's investigation sometime. That is if you want to know basic information about the case.

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[Furiounova]

Thank you for proving my point.

We don't have to guess his state of mind nor how he viewed TM since we have all that on his recorded call. You should read Serino's investigation sometime. That is if you want to know basic information about the case.

It's pretty funny going on a recorded words is considered "arm chair detective."

If GZ knew he was going to have that kind of support he should have admitted the shooting was not justified on one of the jail calls. His supporters would be right long to say he didn't say it in Aramaic or an ancient Greek language so it doesn't count.

 

[Caine]

GZ may be confused. But if he is, he is the sort of confused where you start adding things to your story which weren't there to start. He isn't merely mixing up the sequence of things. He's adding a whole new thing--going across the block in response to NEN requests.

Before he went across the block he was giving directions to his truck.
After he crossed the block he is giving directions to his truck.
There is zero indication in the NEN call that GZ was after any sort of an address from a street sign. At least I haven't noticed any.

In the re-enactment, GZ has placed undue emphasis on the NEN requesting and demanding an address from GZ--"We need an address," GZ says NEN said--when you compare GZ's story w/ the actual call, imho. He attibutes some quotes to NEN that I don't think NEN said. e.g. I don't think NEN said any variation of "We need an address."

Going across the block in response to NEN requests/demands is a post hoc explanation for his actions.

It could be an explanation for what was going on inside of his MIND that he never verbally mentioned at the time.

Im sure you understand someone can say something in the nicest tone of voice in the world, and because its a message you don't want to hear, it comes off as not having been stated in a kind manner.

In this case, its possible NEN may have asked for an address once, and not knowing it immediately, George got flustered with himself and made it an important memory out of the request when it wasn't that big of a deal.

You can get your own memory so screwed up sometimes in these scenarios.

For example, Officers rarely correctly recall how many shots they fired when they have fired their weapon upon a suspect, and then are asked about it in the post-shooting investigation. It doesn't mean they are trying to lie, it means they aren't committing to memory the number of trigger pulls during or after the incident.

 

[joko104]

That is your opinion. TM could have avoided the conflict.

Not one person, no rational person anyway, disputes that there is no possible way fat old GZ could have run down young sleek TM.

And that GZ stayed to the sidewalk "proves without question" that GZ did not pursue TM.

Funny how the Z-hater believes the reason there was not more blood on TM's clothing is because TM and GZ were wrestling around on the ground - and of course then the wouldn't be any blood. ROFL!!!