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Is there anyone here that believes the founders wrote the 2nd Amendment so that America would be the shooting gallery it is today?

Cute picture says the guy with the Chinese “assault weapon” modified for higher capacity magazines.
Reveling in your own ignorance. Got any argument that doesn't involve slanderous ad homs? I don't care for the fact that I seem to be in your head, maybe you should look into the whys that is?
 
Reveling in your own ignorance. Got any argument that doesn't involve slanderous ad homs? I don't care for the fact that I seem to be in your head, maybe you should look into the whys that is?

You think you're in his head because he responds to posts you addressed to him?

Bwahahaha!
 
Reveling in your own ignorance. Got any argument that doesn't involve slanderous ad homs? I don't care for the fact that I seem to be in your head, maybe you should look into the whys that is?
Seems like you have that backwards. You seem to pop pop into threads and reply to my posts. Seems like I have my very own stalker.
 
Seems like you have that backwards. You seem to pop pop into threads and reply to my posts. Seems like I have my very own stalker.
Stop posting ignorant remarks and I'll go away. Can you do that?
 
Stop posting ignorant remarks and I'll go away. Can you do that?

Weren't you recently complaining about ad hominem? Like less than an hour ago, in the post of yours that immediately precedes this one.

I don't know why some of you want to make yourselves objects of fun, but I hope you never quit.
 
Thanks to @bongsaway for the idea of the format...

Whether you are a gun zealot or would prefer no guns in America, do you believe that the founders wrote the 2nd Amendment anticipating that America would become the most violent developed country in the world?

Congress won't do anything. The courts apparently never understood what a comma means in a phrase. Our only hope for meaningful gun safety in America appears to be in a Democrat President that is willing to grab powers denied to the Executive by law and use them.

It was the first Congress who developed and proposed the 2nd Amendment (among others) for ratification, and no, their interpretation of the 2nd Amendment would be wildly different than that of the NRA and the gun libertarians who will no doubt take various court dissents to make some sort of argument to the contrary.
 
Thanks to @bongsaway for the idea of the format...

Whether you are a gun zealot or would prefer no guns in America, do you believe that the founders wrote the 2nd Amendment anticipating that America would become the most violent developed country in the world?

Congress won't do anything. The courts apparently never understood what a comma means in a phrase. Our only hope for meaningful gun safety in America appears to be in a Democrat President that is willing to grab powers denied to the Executive by law and use them.
Simple answer is that the 2nd Amendment was written the way it was so that a typical citizen could grab their weapons and engage the enemy, whether it be foreign or native. In that time, if one had a beef with another, they could grab their weapon and meet on a field of honor. (Duel) Those concepts were aligned with what the Founding Fathers believed in.
 
Simple answer is that the 2nd Amendment was written the way it was so that a typical citizen could grab their weapons and engage the enemy, whether it be foreign or native. In that time, if one had a beef with another, they could grab their weapon and meet on a field of honor. (Duel) Those concepts were aligned with what the Founding Fathers believed in.

Funny, there's absolutely nothing to that effect mentioned in the floor debate of the first Congress when they discussed the subject in the summer of 1789.
 

No, they decided on a very limited case in Washington D.C. regarding the right to own a gun and keep it in your home. But they didn’t say that gun ownership couldn’t be regulated in some way, just that the D.C. regulation went too far. They didn’t make any definitive statement on the true meaning of the 2nd Amendment and acknowledged the right was not an absolute one.
 
No. That was 1541.

All rights are individual rights. "Collective right" is a term nonsense term. No one can ever explain what a collective right even is.

The right to form a militia for public defense is a collective right. The right to peaceful assembly and association is a collective right.
 
The right to form a militia for public defense is a collective right. The right to peaceful assembly and association is a collective right.

The right to peaceful assembly must magically appear when in proximity to at least one other person.
 
It was the first Congress who developed and proposed the 2nd Amendment (among others) for ratification, and no, their interpretation of the 2nd Amendment would be wildly different than that of the NRA and the gun libertarians who will no doubt take various court dissents to make some sort of argument to the contrary.
And I am sure you can prove this right?
 
According to one nutter here the root cause is people are violent. What's your root cause?

Is much violence caused by non-violent people? Isnt the question valid...why are they violent? What caused that?
 
Thanks to @bongsaway for the idea of the format...

Whether you are a gun zealot or would prefer no guns in America, do you believe that the founders wrote the 2nd Amendment anticipating that America would become the most violent developed country in the world?

Congress won't do anything. The courts apparently never understood what a comma means in a phrase. Our only hope for meaningful gun safety in America appears to be in a Democrat President that is willing to grab powers denied to the Executive by law and use them.
No. It was a cost-saving device US government, primarily.

Before 1774, colonists could own firearms. Now, during times of civil unrest, it was not unusual for a colony governor to confiscate arms within the area where the unrest was happening (Washington would do the same during the Whisky Rebellion), but it would normally be limited to that area. In fact, prior to 1774, there was a nice commercial business selling firearms from England to the colonists and to a lesser extend, Native Americans. Also, remember that as the colonies were getting started, they were pretty well-armed.

Because of widespread protests and riots int he few years leading up to 1774, only then was there a ban on selling gunpowder and firearms. More riots broke out and the confiscations began. But keep in mind, those confiscations occurred in hotspots and not really over all the colonies and every single colonist (although there were some in Parliament who wanted to do just that). Still, not a good thing to do.

When we won our independence, the government we set up was a simple confederacy. In the Articles of Confederation, the only mention about firearms was that each state was required to field a militia when called for. Each state was responsible for how that militia was armed. And that was it: no 2nd Amendment yet. During this time, when there were insurrections, the militias routinely took arms away from the population that lived in the area the insurrection took place. Washington demanded loyalty oaths and if you didn't do it, your firearms were taken from you. The Articles eventually gave way to the Constitution...which also said nothing about firearms except for the responsibility to field a militia army. It wasn't until the Bill of Rights did the 2nd Amendment show up.

Washington and the Founders wanted the defense of the US to be reliant on militias first and a much smaller national army second. To that point, after the Revolution, Washington talked Congress into disbanding the Continental Army and to reduce the national force to 1,000 (give or take), mostly infantry to protect the artillery and one small calvary unit, a Coast Guard and essentially no real navy. This force would later turn into the Legion of about 5000 men. So, Washington and Congress realized that there was no way they could afford to equip all the militias with gunpowder and firearms. Which was a concern as the state militias were our first line of defense against any aggression.

Washington, in the rare instance that he talked about freedom to carry a firearm, noted a desire that the US should create a private industry of creating firearms for civilians to purchase as their own. His reasoning: have the people pay for their own defense so that when called for duty, the government wouldn't have to tax everyone to supply all the militias firearms. Private citizens called up would theoretically have the firearm, shot and powder and be ready on that score. Many other Founders and Framers had similar thoughts so when time came for the Bill of Rights, the idea was to allow private citizens to own firearms so that they could serve in the militias without the government going bankrupt to fund it. So to do that, there had to be right for Americans to privately own firearms.

So, when someone says that the 2nd existed to provide for a militia...that is true. But it is also true that Americans have a right to private ownership as per the 2nd. Basically, when the Heller decision came down, the court essentially recognized that while the need for militias are no longer applicable, that reason wasn't cause enough to determine that Americans no longer have the right to bear arms...but was not an unlimited right.

The impetus of the 2nd Amendment was to save money for militias to do the government's fighting.... which also means that the 2nd has no bearing on arming the citizens against the tyranny of the government as the whole point of the 2nd was to provide the government as army to use when needed via militias.
 
No. It was a cost-saving device US government, primarily.

Before 1774, colonists could own firearms. Now, during times of civil unrest, it was not unusual for a colony governor to confiscate arms within the area where the unrest was happening (Washington would do the same during the Whisky Rebellion), but it would normally be limited to that area. In fact, prior to 1774, there was a nice commercial business selling firearms from England to the colonists and to a lesser extend, Native Americans. Also, remember that as the colonies were getting started, they were pretty well-armed.

Because of widespread protests and riots int he few years leading up to 1774, only then was there a ban on selling gunpowder and firearms. More riots broke out and the confiscations began. But keep in mind, those confiscations occurred in hotspots and not really over all the colonies and every single colonist (although there were some in Parliament who wanted to do just that). Still, not a good thing to do.

When we won our independence, the government we set up was a simple confederacy. In the Articles of Confederation, the only mention about firearms was that each state was required to field a militia when called for. Each state was responsible for how that militia was armed. And that was it: no 2nd Amendment yet. During this time, when there were insurrections, the militias routinely took arms away from the population that lived in the area the insurrection took place. Washington demanded loyalty oaths and if you didn't do it, your firearms were taken from you. The Articles eventually gave way to the Constitution...which also said nothing about firearms except for the responsibility to field a militia army. It wasn't until the Bill of Rights did the 2nd Amendment show up.

Washington and the Founders wanted the defense of the US to be reliant on militias first and a much smaller national army second. To that point, after the Revolution, Washington talked Congress into disbanding the Continental Army and to reduce the national force to 1,000 (give or take), mostly infantry to protect the artillery and one small calvary unit, a Coast Guard and essentially no real navy. This force would later turn into the Legion of about 5000 men. So, Washington and Congress realized that there was no way they could afford to equip all the militias with gunpowder and firearms. Which was a concern as the state militias were our first line of defense against any aggression.

Washington, in the rare instance that he talked about freedom to carry a firearm, noted a desire that the US should create a private industry of creating firearms for civilians to purchase as their own. His reasoning: have the people pay for their own defense so that when called for duty, the government wouldn't have to tax everyone to supply all the militias firearms. Private citizens called up would theoretically have the firearm, shot and powder and be ready on that score. Many other Founders and Framers had similar thoughts so when time came for the Bill of Rights, the idea was to allow private citizens to own firearms so that they could serve in the militias without the government going bankrupt to fund it. So to do that, there had to be right for Americans to privately own firearms.

So, when someone says that the 2nd existed to provide for a militia...that is true. But it is also true that Americans have a right to private ownership as per the 2nd. Basically, when the Heller decision came down, the court essentially recognized that while the need for militias are no longer applicable, that reason wasn't cause enough to determine that Americans no longer have the right to bear arms...but was not an unlimited right.
Well it's not unlimited so there's that.
The impetus of the 2nd Amendment was to save money for militias to do the government's fighting.... which also means that the 2nd has no bearing on arming the citizens against the tyranny of the government as the whole point of the 2nd was to provide the government as army to use when needed via militias.
No the purpose of the second amendment so that we can shoot the government should we need to.
 
And I am sure you can prove this right?

Too lazy to look for it now, but somewhere online, one can find the Annals that record the proceedings of past congressional activity. You're not going to find discussion about personal self-defense or recreational sport hunting or whatever in that discussion/debate. The main concern in drafting that amendment was making sure that all the states had the means to defend themselves and their people, and the fledgling nation. Pennsylvania, for example, had a Quaker pacifist constitution, which meant that it didn't really have a standing militia. Some states at the time had not repaid their debts from the Revolution and there was a concern that the US, in its infancy, was vulnerable prey to foreign powers that might want to reassert their presence.

I'm not saying there exists no constitutional right to keep and bear arms, but I don't think that's what the 2nd Amendment was really about. I do think that between the 2nd and, say, the 9th Amendments, there probably is some basic right of lawful firearms ownership, but the Bill of Rights was never meant to preclude state and even federal powers from enacting legislation that promotes public safety and order (more of a state role than a federal role, in my view).
 
Thanks to @bongsaway for the idea of the format...

Whether you are a gun zealot or would prefer no guns in America, do you believe that the founders wrote the 2nd Amendment anticipating that America would become the most violent developed country in the world?

Congress won't do anything. The courts apparently never understood what a comma means in a phrase. Our only hope for meaningful gun safety in America appears to be in a Democrat President that is willing to grab powers denied to the Executive by law and use them.

FIrst of all it is illogical to imply 3 things about the Founders

1) that they didn't believe gun ownership was an "Unalienable Right"... they did so intent is just NA

2) I think you make the mistake Biden made his whole life ; take a gun away from a person intent on going to the local school and killing little children -and you still have "a person intent on going to the local school and killing little children"
Yes, with sexual perversion and moral decline those people increase but taking away gund DOES NOTHING

3) The situation you deplore --- look at the opposite situation in Israel where people like you got guns severely restricted and then came Hamas

Number of Israelis Seeking Gun Permits Passes 230000​






Nov 16, 2023 — More Israeli citizens have applied for firearms licenses in the last month than in the previous 20 years,


Finally, I don't think you realize what the demographics actually are for your opinion
Gun ownership among Democrats is on the rise, according to a recent Wall Street Journal report. This trend marks a significant shift in American gun culture, which has long been dominated by conservative white men.

Surveys and growing gun groups indicate that liberals, minorities, and progressives are increasingly purchasing firearms. Jennifer Hubbert, an anthropology professor at Lewis & Clark College, notes, “It’s a group of people who five years ago would never have considered buying a gun.”
 
THe 2nd Amendment like every single right in the Bill of Rights (except of course the 10th Amendment) was first in multiple Bills of Rights in the 18-20 State Constitutions previous to the Federal Constitution, and often the same people were part of both. So to find rights best defined look at the sources

EG

Article I, section 21 of the Pennsylvania State Constitution states: “The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.”
 
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