Is the root of America's decline the worship of consumerism?

[Barnabas Collins]

Discussion of how people are sacrificing themselves to materialism/consumerism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H37793fEQ2s

People have been trained by the corporations and media (any difference?) to want it now, immediately and if you don't have it then you scream and nag until you get it. This ethic pervades or economic, political and even social/family lives. Yet is the true measure of a human being what he or she is able to buy?

We need to get back to loving people and not suing them. We need to be able to learn to say no to our own impulses, a nagging child and even a government that pays on borrowed Chinese money and could not care less what happens in the future. We are a nation of obesity and unhappiness and that has to change...one way or another. Hopefully we won't have to experience an economic meltdown to learn what the true meaning of self, family and community really are.

 

[Fenton]

Lol !

No, " consumerism " is not to blame. For one its NOT NEW. There was Consumerism in the 20s, 30's, 40's, 50's etc but there was also a sense of self control based on a shared or agreed upon definition of morality.

Societies devolution is a morality issue and nothing more.

 

[Respecthelect]

The bible says, "the love of money is the root of all evil." (Tim1 6:10)

My question is, since we presume there was no money in the garden of eden, how could there have been evil there? Or is Timothy mistranslated?

More to the point, money is a tool, like a hammer or a saw. A carpenter won't get very far without his hammer and we won't get very far without money. That isn't to say we should love money, but rather we should treat it like a carpenter treats his tools. Use it to build.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Discussion of how people are sacrificing themselves to materialism/consumerism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H37793fEQ2s

People have been trained by the corporations and media (any difference?) to want it now, immediately and if you don't have it then you scream and nag until you get it. This ethic pervades or economic, political and even social/family lives. Yet is the true measure of a human being what he or she is able to buy?

We need to get back to loving people and not suing them. We need to be able to learn to say no to our own impulses, a nagging child and even a government that pays on borrowed Chinese money and could not care less what happens in the future. We are a nation of obesity and unhappiness and that has to change...one way or another. Hopefully we won't have to experience an economic meltdown to learn what the true meaning of self, family and community really are.

It's a doggoned-if-you-do, doggoned-if-you-don't kind of thing.

Why?

Think on this - how well do you know your next-door neighbor? Maybe you know them very well, but more and more, most Americans don't. Thanks to cars and (relatively) cheap gas, 'neighbors' are becoming somewhat of a thing of the past. Along with that goes the sense of real community.

And when it comes to obesity, there's two major factors: one is the fact that it literally costs more in time and money to make a healthy meal than it does to pick up a pizza at Little Caesar's. Try cooking a healthy meal with lots of veggies for your kids...and then compare the cost of that meal to the $5 that pizza would have cost. And two, it's cars again - we drive or ride everywhere instead of walk. The more rural a state is, generally speaking, the more obese that state's population is...because while those who live in rural areas work every day, they drive to wherever it is they work, whereas in cities, people generally walk everywhere. Spend time in a major city and see how people are generally skinnier than those who live in the countryside. FYI, I've seen both sides of this story, having grown up in a very, very rural area, and having traveled to and lived in major cities.

There's more to the equation than those two factors, of course...but I daresay that it's less of a fault of government than a direct result of our success as an economy. I daresay that part of our problem is that America has been Number One since the end of WWII, and as a result we were taught to think that our way was the best way, that we had the best of everything, that if it didn't come from America, then it couldn't be the very best. We were taught to think that we were the smartest, most educated people on the planet...

...and as a result, we stopped competing with the rest of the world in science and math and engineering. This is why we have zero high-speed rails, why the world's premier scientific facility is at CERN on the French/Swiss frontier, why we now seem to mistrust scientists. Most of the rest of the world is trying to embrace alternative energy whereas we pretend that the overwhelming majority of the world's scientists are wrong or are somehow part of the grandest hoax in human history.

It's not unlike Rome - just as they were, we are a victim of our own success, having learned to sit on our laurels.

 

[joG]

Discussion of how people are sacrificing themselves to materialism/consumerism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H37793fEQ2s

People have been trained by the corporations and media (any difference?) to want it now, immediately and if you don't have it then you scream and nag until you get it. This ethic pervades or economic, political and even social/family lives. Yet is the true measure of a human being what he or she is able to buy?

We need to get back to loving people and not suing them. We need to be able to learn to say no to our own impulses, a nagging child and even a government that pays on borrowed Chinese money and could not care less what happens in the future. We are a nation of obesity and unhappiness and that has to change...one way or another. Hopefully we won't have to experience an economic meltdown to learn what the true meaning of self, family and community really are.

If you consume all your income and everyone else does too, there isn't much left for investment.

Only the rich will save and the gap to the others will increase.

 

[grip]

The bible says, "the love of money is the root of all evil." (Tim1 6:10)

My question is, since we presume there was no money in the garden of eden, how could there have been evil there? Or is Timothy mistranslated?

More to the point, money is a tool, like a hammer or a saw. A carpenter won't get very far without his hammer and we won't get very far without money. That isn't to say we should love money, but rather we should treat it like a carpenter treats his tools. Use it to build.

That's really missing the point of that phrase. The Love of money is representative of selfishness, not money itself.


The problem isn't really a 'one thing' to fix situation, it's multifaceted with excessive commercialism, based on consumer growth, as part of it. With emphasis on the maximizing of profit, and practices and attitudes that are concerned with the making of profit at the expense of quality.

Our society has become money based, instead of human centric, with people as disposable commodities. There has to be a balance between using capitalism as a tool to benefit ALL of humankind, not just those poised to reap the most rewards from the system.

 

[Fenton]

It's a doggoned-if-you-do, doggoned-if-you-don't kind of thing.

Why?

Think on this - how well do you know your next-door neighbor? Maybe you know them very well, but more and more, most Americans don't. Thanks to cars and (relatively) cheap gas, 'neighbors' are becoming somewhat of a thing of the past. Along with that goes the sense of real community.

And when it comes to obesity, there's two major factors: one is the fact that it literally costs more in time and money to make a healthy meal than it does to pick up a pizza at Little Caesar's. Try cooking a healthy meal with lots of veggies for your kids...and then compare the cost of that meal to the $5 that pizza would have cost. And two, it's cars again - we drive or ride everywhere instead of walk. The more rural a state is, generally speaking, the more obese that state's population is...because while those who live in rural areas work every day, they drive to wherever it is they work, whereas in cities, people generally walk everywhere. Spend time in a major city and see how people are generally skinnier than those who live in the countryside. FYI, I've seen both sides of this story, having grown up in a very, very rural area, and having traveled to and lived in major cities.

There's more to the equation than those two factors, of course...but I daresay that it's less of a fault of government than a direct result of our success as an economy. I daresay that part of our problem is that America has been Number One since the end of WWII, and as a result we were taught to think that our way was the best way, that we had the best of everything, that if it didn't come from America, then it couldn't be the very best. We were taught to think that we were the smartest, most educated people on the planet...

...and as a result, we stopped competing with the rest of the world in science and math and engineering. This is why we have zero high-speed rails, why the world's premier scientific facility is at CERN on the French/Swiss frontier, why we now seem to mistrust scientists. Most of the rest of the world is trying to embrace alternative energy whereas we pretend that the overwhelming majority of the world's scientists are wrong or are somehow part of the grandest hoax in human history.

It's not unlike Rome - just as they were, we are a victim of our own success, having learned to sit on our laurels.

You are so ill informed its not even funny even more.

And people like you vote....scary stuff.

So we should be more like Germany ? Their "green energy revolution" is a huge failure as admitted by the German Government.

Yea, their Finance Minister just proclaimed it a unmitigated disaster.

And CERN ? A large Hadron Collider and not the only Super Collider in existence. But Im a huge fan of CERN and the work they do there but since most Libs are highly scientifically ignorant people I want YOU to tell me what they're trying to accomplish at CERN.

Please expand on their continued experiments as it pertains to the Grand Unifying Theory.

 

[Fenton]

That's really missing the point of that phrase. The Love of money is representative of selfishness, not money itself.


The problem isn't really a 'one thing' to fix situation, it's multifaceted with excessive commercialism, based on consumer growth, as part of it. With emphasis on the maximizing of profit, and practices and attitudes that are concerned with the making of profit at the expense of quality.

Our society has become money based, instead of human centric, with people as disposable commodities. There has to be a balance between using capitalism as a tool to benefit ALL of humankind, not just those poised to reap the most rewards from the system.

But its not money's fault, or Capitalisms fault, or is it the fault of "Consumerism ".

 

[brothern]

Lol ! No, " consumerism " is not to blame. For one its NOT NEW. There was Consumerism in the 20s, 30's, 40's, 50's etc but there was also a sense of self control based on a shared or agreed upon definition of morality. Societies devolution is a morality issue and nothing more.

Meh. I would say consumerism only really exploded post-WWII with the maturation of mass media. It wasn't until early television (and late radio) provided those mass audiences of consumers that manufacturers' focus on branding become such a big deal.

I don't see how society has devolved in any manner. We've gotten richer and live longer lives. More people are educated, child mortality rates have falling off a cliff, and current technology is astounding -- I have access to the world's knowledge at the tips of my fingers. Social stigma around gays, blacks, women and religious minorities are fast disappearing. I'm very glad to have been born when I was, the past is very dark indeed.

 

[grip]

But its not money's fault, or Capitalisms fault, or is it the fault of "Consumerism ".

Did you even read my post?

I said it's the GROWTH MODEL that's causing problems. You can't grow a huge population on easy credit and housing, then suddenly contract it all back down because the financials weren't adding up for the lenders. We ended up with a shrinking middle class, and growing lower and upper classes. The monetary imbalance, lack of employment, with pressure on natural resources, like food, energy and other commodities are all causing problems.

The US southern border, Ukraine and Arab upheaval are all about poverty or money.

 

[brothern]

You are so ill informed its not even funny even more. And people like you vote....scary stuff. So we should be more like Germany ? Their "green energy revolution" is a huge failure as admitted by the German Government. Yea, their Finance Minister just proclaimed it a unmitigated disaster.

Err, no, lol! The criticism is over the size of the compensation scheme given to renewable generators, not the goal or the existence of the EEG.

See: Erneuerbare-Energien-Gesetz

Also it's Sigmar Gabriel, the Bundesminister for Economics/Energy, that's the premiere critic, not Schäuble.

And CERN ? A large Hadron Collider and not the only Super Collider in existence. But Im a huge fan of CERN and the work they do there but since most Libs are highly scientifically ignorant people I want YOU to tell me what they're trying to accomplish at CERN. Please expand on their continued experiments as it pertains to the Grand Unifying Theory.

CERN is great.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

You are so ill informed its not even funny even more.

And people like you vote....scary stuff.

So we should be more like Germany ? Their "green energy revolution" is a huge failure as admitted by the German Government.

Yea, their Finance Minister just proclaimed it a unmitigated disaster.

And if you'd really paid attention in that thread where we discussed that very matter, you'd have seen that NO, it wasn't a disaster, that YES, Germany's doing just fine, thank you very much, and that YES, solar power will continue to grow in Germany...and it will continue to grow here in America no matter how much those on the right want to protect the poor, poor, disadvantaged Big Oil corporations....

And CERN ? A large Hadron Collider and not the only Super Collider in existence. But Im a huge fan of CERN and the work they do there but since most Libs are highly scientifically ignorant people I want YOU to tell me what they're trying to accomplish at CERN.

Please expand on their continued experiments as it pertains to the Grand Unifying Theory.

If you're a big fan of CERN, then you know that there's a lot more to CERN than 'just' the LHC.

And it's laughable that you seem to believe that liberals are "highly scientifically ignorant" since only 6% of scientists are Republican, 90% of ALL scientists agree that AGW is real, the great majority of the high-tech sector is liberal, the most-educated and highest-earning ethnic group in America (higher in both cases than whites) - Asian-Americans - strongly supported the Dems in the last two elections...

...whereas RED states generally have lower educational attainment rates, and those who reject evolution, the Big Bang, the 5B-or-so-years age of the Earth, and AGW are much more likely to be conservative than liberal.

You can point your finger all you want at "scientific ignorance" of liberals...but remember that every time you do so, there are three fingers pointing right back at you. Ours is a molehill to your mountain, a mote in our eyes to the log in your own.

 

[Fenton]

Meh. I would say consumerism only really exploded post-WWII with the maturation of mass media. It wasn't until early television (and late radio) provided those mass audiences of consumers that manufacturers' focus on branding become such a big deal.

I don't see how society has devolved in any manner. We've gotten richer and live longer lives. More people are educated, child mortality rates have falling off a cliff, and current technology is astounding -- I have access to the world's knowledge at the tips of my fingers. Social stigma around gays, blacks, women and religious minorities are fast disappearing. I'm very glad to have been born when I was, the past is very dark indeed.

Its devolving in terms of morality, not financially.

 

[Fenton]

And if you'd really paid attention in that thread where we discussed that very matter, you'd have seen that NO, it wasn't a disaster, that YES, Germany's doing just fine, thank you very much, and that YES, solar power will continue to grow in Germany...and it will continue to grow here in America no matter how much those on the right want to protect the poor, poor, disadvantaged Big Oil corporations....



If you're a big fan of CERN, then you know that there's a lot more to CERN than 'just' the LHC.

And it's laughable that you seem to believe that liberals are "highly scientifically ignorant" since only 6% of scientists are Republican, 90% of ALL scientists agree that AGW is real, the great majority of the high-tech sector is liberal, the most-educated and highest-earning ethnic group in America (higher in both cases than whites) - Asian-Americans - strongly supported the Dems in the last two elections...

...whereas RED states generally have lower educational attainment rates, and those who reject evolution, the Big Bang, the 5B-or-so-years age of the Earth, and AGW are much more likely to be conservative than liberal.

You can point your finger all you want at "scientific ignorance" of liberals...but remember that every time you do so, there are three fingers pointing right back at you. Ours is a molehill to your mountain, a mote in our eyes to the log in your own.

I asked you to expand on CERNs work and you offfered up more disconnected opinions.

You couldn't offer up anything based in the study of particle theory so its as I suspected

Liberals present themselves all on their own as the standard for whats scientific and of whats practical but in reality they're just frauds.

If you're going to make innacurate, ideologically fueled accusations against Americans scientific endeavors and or iniatives it might help your credibility if you knew what the hell it was you were talking about.

And Germany's doing " fine " ??

LOL !

This is " fine " to you....their Finance Minister just declared that their green energy revolution was a total failure.

They're now MORE DEPENDANT ON COAL than they were before they shut down their Nuke plants and their air is dirtier than it was before they shut down their Nuke plants.

I though you Libs cared about Clean air. No, you care about your ideology over everything else.

The German citizens pay 300 percent more for their electricity than the average American does and nearly 800 thousand Germans are without power now because they've been priced out of the market.

" Science " to you is something that has to be heavily subsidized to work apparently.

Problem is in Germany its heavily subsidized and its STILL not working.

 

[Respecthelect]

Arab upheaval are all about poverty or money.

Only in the broadest sense that money is tied to loose (Muslim) morals. In Christian societies, it's generally accepted that individual morality questions be mostly left up to the free individual to reconcile with his maker. But, Muslim's (liberal's, progressive's, socialists, communists, etc.) believe the state must enforce individual behavior. That they know better how the individual should live. So, when Western R-rated movies influence Muslim masses, the imam's get salty. And when imam's get salty, one soon sees violence. It has little to do with money.

Yes, liberal's will squawk that it is conservatives that rail against corruptive behaviors (prostitution, etc.), but it is liberal's who enforce their idea of charity at the point of a gun. Liberal's who believe they know best how the individual should give to charity (welfare, health care, etc.).

My freedom wasn't restricted once this year by conservative morality laws, but my liberty is taken every single day by liberal's who demand I pay for their charity programs. I toil every day, by my free choice - trading my freedom for a few coins to buy food and shelter. But, the portion liberal's take to give to those who won't work, robs me of my free will, my free time and my freedom to give that bounty to the charity of my choice.

Strayed a bit from Arab Muslim motivation, but it's mostly not money. It's a question of who dictates the use of people's time and effort. Muslim's believe religion and state are inseparable and it is the imam that orders people around. Liberal's believe they know best and big government should tell people how to live their lives, not wrt to corruption, but in every other aspect of our lives. Conservative's believe the individual should decide for himself how to spend his time and effort (with the minor exception of the corruptions).

 

[grip]

Only in the broadest sense that money is tied to loose (Muslim) morals. In Christian societies, it's generally accepted that individual morality questions be mostly left up to the free individual to reconcile with his maker. But, Muslim's (liberal's, progressive's, socialists, communists, etc.) believe the state must enforce individual behavior. That they know better how the individual should live. So, when Western R-rated movies influence Muslim masses, the imam's get salty. And when imam's get salty, one soon sees violence. It has little to do with money.

Yes, liberal's will squawk that it is conservatives that rail against corruptive behaviors (prostitution, etc.), but it is liberal's who enforce their idea of charity at the point of a gun. Liberal's who believe they know best how the individual should give to charity (welfare, health care, etc.).

My freedom wasn't restricted once this year by conservative morality laws, but my liberty is taken every single day by liberal's who demand I pay for their charity programs. I toil every day, by my free choice - trading my freedom for a few coins to buy food and shelter. But, the portion liberal's take to give to those who won't work, robs me of my free will, my free time and my freedom to give that bounty to the charity of my choice.

Strayed a bit from Arab Muslim motivation, but it's mostly not money. It's a question of who dictates the use of people's time and effort. Muslim's believe religion and state are inseparable and it is the imam that orders people around. Liberal's believe they know best and big government should tell people how to live their lives, not wrt to corruption, but in every other aspect of our lives. Conservative's believe the individual should decide for himself how to spend his time and effort (with the minor exception of the corruptions).

Wrong. It's all about the paper and always has been, regardless of whatever reasons people use as an excuse. The main thing you've complained about in your reply is "your share". Liberals may want the gov't to control your money but the Conservatives sure don't want you to control it either.....lol

 

[fmw]

The decline that I've seen starting with my generation is the replacing of motivation with dependency and the willingness to accept corruption. That's my view of it.

 

[Barnabas Collins]

The decline seems to have taken on full force in the mid-1960s. I am not going to blame the hippies either. The thing is they were in large part a healthy push-back against societal conformity and materialism but they were co-opted by drugs (note: LSD/CIA), leftists and others who, if you check the 3rd part of BBC's "Century of the Self" market forces that eventually used psychology to make these idealists into left-leaning greedy materialists.

The elite focused negative attention onto family, traditions and true individuality. Now we have McCulture that will eventually lead to decline and replacement by some other culture (Islam?) that at least gives meaning.

 

[Respecthelect]

Wrong. It's all about the paper and always has been, regardless of whatever reasons people use as an excuse.

Let's assume a financial collapse, where the world stops trading in dollars. Would the Arab's stop hating us? Stop attacking us? Would we be safer in our weakened position?

Money certainly plays a role regarding who has power, but radical Muslim's attack us, not for money, but because we are infidels. And if they could kill all the infidel's, then they'd need to kill other Muslim's who weren't quite "the right kind" of Muslim (e.g. Sunni vs Shia). And they would never stop killing, because that's what their "religion" teaches. Kill until every man on earth submits to their exact interpretation of their brand of Islam, regardless the Benjamin's.

The bigger the killer, the more exalted in Islam. The more people one kills, the higher his rank. The splashier his bombings, the more famous he becomes. Virtually nothing to do with money. Islam simply rewards and exalts killing.

This is the polar opposite of Judeo-Christian's who revile killing, even justified killing. David wasn't allowed to build the Temple, because he had "blood on his hands." Completely justified blood. The blood of Goliath, drawn righteously in war, but there's something just not quite acceptable about killing, wrt Judeo-Christian's and their teaching.

 

[fmw]

The decline seems to have taken on full force in the mid-1960s..

It started in the 1960's. The 1950's were the pinnacle of American society in my view. I'm not sure about the term full force but I think our society has been declining pretty steadily ever since.

 

[grip]

Let's assume a financial collapse, where the world stops trading in dollars. Would the Arab's stop hating us? Stop attacking us? Would we be safer in our weakened position?

Money certainly plays a role regarding who has power, but radical Muslim's attack us, not for money, but because we are infidels. And if they could kill all the infidel's, then they'd need to kill other Muslim's who weren't quite "the right kind" of Muslim (e.g. Sunni vs Shia). And they would never stop killing, because that's what their "religion" teaches. Kill until every man on earth submits to their exact interpretation of their brand of Islam, regardless the Benjamin's.

The bigger the killer, the more exalted in Islam. The more people one kills, the higher his rank. The splashier his bombings, the more famous he becomes. Virtually nothing to do with money. Islam simply rewards and exalts killing.

This is the polar opposite of Judeo-Christian's who revile killing, even justified killing. David wasn't allowed to build the Temple, because he had "blood on his hands." Completely justified blood. The blood of Goliath, drawn righteously in war, but there's something just not quite acceptable about killing, wrt Judeo-Christian's and their teaching.

Did you ever consider that before the US started meddling in the ME countries internal affairs for oil/energy needs that they weren't a problem? First, they weren't that radicalized against us because 'out of sight, out of mind', and second, they didn't have the money or resources to even fight each other, more less us.

We had a big hand in stirring up that pot for the last 50 years, especially since the Iraq invasion. Now we have to deal with the consequences. I'm not sure we had much of a choice other than to play geopolitical games to fuel our modern society, but big oil began squashing alternative energy sources early on in the late 70's after the Oil Crisis. If all those solar and electric batteries had been continued to be researched and invested in, we'd be facing a completely different scenario today.

And the Judeo-Christians didn't revile killing during the Crusades or the Inquisition.

 

[Fenton]

Did you ever consider that before the US started meddling in the ME countries internal affairs for oil/energy needs that they weren't a problem? First, they weren't that radicalized against us because 'out of sight, out of mind', and second, they didn't have the money or resources to even fight each other, more less us.

We had a big hand in stirring up that pot for the last 50 years, especially since the Iraq invasion. Now we have to deal with the consequences. I'm not sure we had much of a choice other than to play geopolitical games to fuel our modern society, but big oil began squashing alternative energy sources early on in the late 70's after the Oil Crisis. If all those solar and electric batteries had been continued to be researched and invested in, we'd be facing a completely different scenario today.

And the Judeo-Christians didn't revile killing during the Crusades or the Inquisition.

First, do a bit of research on the Barbary pirates and second, your'e honestly going back to the crusades to prove your point that the loss of Judeo Christian beliefs is irrelevant in our societies continued decline ?

Thats worse than reaching.

 

[grip]

First, do a bit of research on the Barbary pirates and second, your'e honestly going back to the crusades to prove your point that the loss of Judeo Christian beliefs is irrelevant in our societies continued decline ?

Thats worse than reaching.

Your post is clueless in respect as a response to what I wrote.

My point about the history of Christianity is that it has not always been peaceful. Our societies decline in traditions and values is a natural evolution of society. I don't like all of it and think sometimes we get it wrong, but that's why it's called 'change'.

 

[VanceMack]

Lord no....its socialism. Its the creation of a dependent class that contributes less than nothing to society. Its expecting the productive minority to carry the crippled dependent pets.

 

[Renae]

Discussion of how people are sacrificing themselves to materialism/consumerism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H37793fEQ2s

People have been trained by the corporations and media (any difference?) to want it now, immediately and if you don't have it then you scream and nag until you get it. This ethic pervades or economic, political and even social/family lives. Yet is the true measure of a human being what he or she is able to buy?

We need to get back to loving people and not suing them. We need to be able to learn to say no to our own impulses, a nagging child and even a government that pays on borrowed Chinese money and could not care less what happens in the future. We are a nation of obesity and unhappiness and that has to change...one way or another. Hopefully we won't have to experience an economic meltdown to learn what the true meaning of self, family and community really are.

No, it's the damage started by FDR and the Progressives between 1910-1945.