Is the OWS against Capitalism?

Dickieboy said:

I have no idea but it is idiotic. I can only suppose that the GOP thinks ‘because the Dems want it we are against it’…

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That's why I vote for Democrats.

After the recovery AND AFTER WE ADDRESS THE SPENDING I would agree. Spending at +/-25% of GDP is unsustainable.

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The Democrats offered $3 in spending cuts for every $1 of tax increases. The GOP turned it down.

What SPECIFIC tax breaks do they get for going overseas? The section 199 reference I gave you earlier promotes DOMESTIC activities.

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S.3816:

"Official Summary

9/21/2010--Introduced.Creating American Jobs and Ending Offshoring Act - Amends the Internal Revenue Code to:

(1) exempt from employment taxes for a 24-month period employers who hire a employee who replaces another employee who is not a citizen or permanent resident of the United States and who performs similar duties overseas;

(2) deny any tax deduction, deduction for loss, or tax credit for the cost of an American jobs offshoring transaction (defined as any transaction in which a taxpayer reduces or eliminates the operation of a trade or business in connection with the start-up or expansion of such trade or business outside the United States); and

(3) eliminate the deferral of tax on income of a controlled foreign corporation attributable to property imported into the United States by such corporation or a related person, except for property exported before substantial use in the United States and for agricultural commodities not grown in the United States in commercially marketable quantities."

S.3816: Creating American Jobs and Ending Offshoring Act - U.S. Congress - OpenCongress

sangha said:

Umm, you posted a quote from Adbusters. Who do you think Lasn and White are?



The person in the pic below is also "directly involved" in OWS. I guess this means you think he's controlling OWS :lamo

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Did that idiot lay out the outline of OWS. Did he conceive the idea of OWS. Did he buy a domain that is the internet hub for OWS? Has he done interviews where he admits to starting OWS with a vision of how it will play out?

Damn a photo of a strawman argument nice touch. Try as you might but Lasn is doing more than screaming like an idiot holding up ripped paper.

99% plan new tax war on Super Rich in 2012 - Paul B. Farrell - MarketWatch Dec. 20, 2011 How? In a recent Washington Post op-ed column, OWS leaders are clearly accelerating their battle strategy in 2012. In what amounts to a new declaration of war that promises to electrify the 2012 elections, OWS will be using new asymmetrical warfare strategies, write the two men who’ve been the driving force behind the movement since early this year, Kalle Lasn editor-in-chief of Adbusters magazine and senior editor Micah White.

Listen to some of the specific guerilla tactics they warn will be used in their coming 2012 “American Spring” assault: A “marked escalation of surprise, playful, precision disruptions, rush-hour flash mobs, bank occupations, ‘occupy squads’ and edgy theatrics.” And in a New Yorker magazine interview shortly after New York Mayor Bloomberg’s “military-style operation,” Lasn warned: “this means escalation, pushing us one step closer to a revolution.”

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Meanwhile, Kalle Lasn, founder of Vancouver’s anti-consumerist magazine Adbusters, has been internationally acknowledged as the mastermind behind the global Occupy movement. Canadians feel like they’re on top of the world: poll - Canada - Macleans.ca

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And this was just for irony

The Occupy Wall Street slogan was first published in a poster designed by Adbusters, and the day it began, September 17, is the birthday of Mr. Lasn’s mother. Adbusters Publisher Kalle Lasn to Write an Occupy Wall Street ‘Textbook of the Future’ | The New York Observer

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And just because you are clueless read this:

Lasn and White quickly hammered out a post-Zuccotti plan. White would draft a new memorandum, suggesting that Phase I—signs, meetings, camps, marches—was now over. Phase II would involve a swarming strategy of “surprise attacks against business as usual,” with the potential to be “more intense and visceral, depending on how the Bloombergs of the world react.” White could hear the excitement in Lasn’s voice. Even as Lasn vented about the morning’s counterrevolution, he was doing what he could not to splash. Pre-Occupied: The origins and future of Occupy Wall Street, Mattathias Schwartz

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but wait it gets better:

This is how Occupy Wall Street began: as one of many half-formed plans circulating through conversations between Lasn and White, who lives in Berkeley and has not seen Lasn in person for more than four years. Neither can recall who first had the idea of trying to take over lower Manhattan. In early June, Adbusters sent an e-mail to subscribers stating that “America needs its own Tahrir.” The next day, White wrote to Lasn that he was “very excited about the Occupy Wall Street meme. . . . I think we should make this happen.” He proposed three possible Web sites: OccupyWallStreet.org, AcampadaWallStreet.org, and TakeWallStreet.org.

“No. 1 is best,” Lasn replied, on June 9th. That evening, he registered OccupyWallStreet.org. Pre-Occupied: The origins and future of Occupy Wall Street, Mattathias Schwartz

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Oh and even better here are your Anarchists that started OWS they were all Adbusters about 50 of them:

This resulted in some confusion on August 2nd, when scores of graduate students and labor activists showed up, expecting a rally for New Yorkers Against Budget Cuts. They erected a small stage and began giving amplified speeches, which alienated the roughly fifty Adbusters supporters, mostly anarchists, who came expecting a planning session. There was some angry shouting before a group of anarchists broke off, sat down in a circle on the cobblestones, and held their own meeting.

The anarchists immediately agreed to use “horizontal” organizing methods, according to which meetings are known as general assemblies and participants make decisions by consensus and give continuous feedback through hand gestures. Moving one’s fingers in an undulating motion, palm out, pointing up, means approval of what’s being said. Palm in, pointing down, means disapproval. Crossed arms signals a “block,” a serious objection that must be heard. Some participants knew this style of meeting from left-wing traditions stretching back to the civil-rights movement and earlier. Pre-Occupied: The origins and future of Occupy Wall Street, Mattathias Schwartz

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Oh and then there is this part where Adbusters grapples with how to manipulate the 99%:

Soon after finishing the declaration, the early organizers started to have a problem: their solutions were to be accessible to everyone, but so was their protest. The crowds at those early meetings came in response to messages broadcast over a narrow channel, the Adbusters list. They were committed to a tangible goal, with an immediate deadline. But in early October, as the national media seized on the Zuccotti Park story, the rest of the ninety-nine per cent started showing up. The G.A. had to tackle three new challenges simultaneously: holding ground; managing a semi-permanent village; and guiding a much larger and more cacophonous political conversation. All this had to be done with almost no heat, running water, or electricity. Pre-Occupied: The origins and future of Occupy Wall Street, Mattathias Schwartz

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So what were you saying? That Lasn was like that guy in the hat you posted? Not the "driving force"?

Catawba said:

S.3816:

"Official Summary

9/21/2010--Introduced.Creating American Jobs and Ending Offshoring Act - Amends the Internal Revenue Code to:

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That appears to be a bill that would help to prevent jobs from going overseas. I asked you to support 'SPECIFIC tax breaks do they get for going overseas' which you claimed was happening.

Dickieboy said:

That appears to be a bill that would help to prevent jobs from going overseas. I asked you to support 'SPECIFIC tax breaks do they get for going overseas' which you claimed was happening.

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The bill language lists the tax breaks for outsourcing that would be eliminated. It was quoted in my post.

Your Star said:

They are not against capitalism. The main reason it started was to protest against big business in politics.

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Where did hear that? It's the politicians in business that are the problem.

Catawba said:

The bill language lists the tax breaks for outsourcing that would be eliminated. It was quoted in my post.

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You mean this:

2) deny any tax deduction, deduction for loss, or tax credit for the cost of an American jobs offshoring transaction (defined as any transaction in which a taxpayer reduces or eliminates the operation of a trade or business in connection with the start-up or expansion of such trade or business outside the United States); and

Kinda lacks the specificity that I requested but whatever..three times, done. I posted a SPECIFIC reference to IRS tax code that supported domestic activities. Consider that 'multinationals' overseas operations support increased domestic investment and hiring by decreasing companies' costs, expanding their foreign-customer base, and increasing domestic demand for higher-skilled labor.'

Outsourcing Jobs and Taxes - Council on Foreign Relations

OH, this isn't going to help their popularity:

Mayor Calls For Budget Cuts To Offset Millions In Occupy LA Costs « CBS Los Angeles

Dickieboy said:

You mean this:

2) deny any tax deduction, deduction for loss, or tax credit for the cost of an American jobs offshoring transaction (defined as any transaction in which a taxpayer reduces or eliminates the operation of a trade or business in connection with the start-up or expansion of such trade or business outside the United States); and

Kinda lacks the specificity that I requested but whatever..three times, done. I posted a SPECIFIC reference to IRS tax code that supported domestic activities. Consider that 'multinationals' overseas operations support increased domestic investment and hiring by decreasing companies' costs, expanding their foreign-customer base, and increasing domestic demand for higher-skilled labor.'

Outsourcing Jobs and Taxes - Council on Foreign Relations

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These are the tax breaks for companies to outsource investment and jobs that are specified in S.3816

any tax deduction
deduction for loss
tax credit for the cost of an American jobs offshoring transaction
deferral of tax on income


If you want more specificity than this, contact your Senator.

Catawba said:

If you want more specificity than this, contact your Senator.

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So you requoted my quote...
Typical...my Senator is not on DP making wildly unsubstantiated claims...done

Dickieboy said:

That appears to be a bill that would help to prevent jobs from going overseas. I asked you to support 'SPECIFIC tax breaks do they get for going overseas' which you claimed was happening.

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"SEC. 201. DISALLOWANCE OF DEDUCTION, LOSS, OR CREDIT FOR CERTAIN ITEMS INCURRED IN MOVING AMERICAN JOBS OFFSHORE.

(a) In General- Part IX of subchapter B of chapter 1 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 is amended by adding at the end the following new section:
`SEC. 280I. EXPENDITURES INCURRED IN MOVING AMERICAN JOBS OFFSHORE.

`(a) Disallowance- No deduction, loss, or credit shall be allowed under this title for any taxable year for any disallowed amount.
`(b) Disallowed Amount- For purposes of this section--
`(1) IN GENERAL- The term `disallowed amount' means any amount which is paid or incurred during the taxable year which is properly allocable to an American jobs offshoring transaction.
`(2) LOSSES- Such term shall include any loss from any sale, exchange, abandonment, or other disposition of property in connection with an American jobs offshoring transaction.
`(3) EXCEPTION FOR COSTS RELATED TO DISPLACED WORKERS- Such term shall not include any amount paid or incurred for assistance to employees within the United States whose jobs are being lost as part of an American jobs offshoring transaction, including any severance pay, outplacement services, or employee retraining.
`(c) American Jobs Offshoring Transaction- For purposes of this section--
`(1) IN GENERAL- The term `American jobs offshoring transaction' means any transaction (or series of transactions) in which the taxpayer reduces or eliminates the operation of a trade or business (or line of business) within the United States in connection with the start up or expansion of such trade or business (or such line of business) by the taxpayer outside of the United States.
`(2) EXCEPTION- A transaction (or series of transactions) shall not be treated as an American jobs offshoring transaction if the taxpayer establishes to the satisfaction of the Secretary that such transaction (or series of transactions) will not result in the loss of employment for employees of the taxpayer within the United States.
`(d) Aggregation Rule- All employers treated as a single employer under subsection (a) or (b) of section 52 shall be treated as a single taxpayer for purposes of this section, except that section 1563(b)(2)(C) shall be disregarded in applying section 1563 for purposes of section 52.
`(e) Regulations- The Secretary shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to carry out the purposes of this section, including regulations necessary to prevent the avoidance of such purposes and the application of this section in the case of mergers, acquisitions, and dispositions and in the case of contract employees.'.
(b) Conforming Amendment- The table of sections for part IX of subchapter B of chapter 1 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 is amended by adding at the end the following new item:
`Sec. 280I. Expenditures incurred in moving American jobs offshore.'.
(c) Effective Dates-
(1) IN GENERAL- The amendments made by this section shall apply to transactions occurring after the date of the enactment of this Act.
(2) EXCEPTION FOR EXISTING TRANSACTIONS- The amendments made by this section shall not apply to transactions occurring after the date of the enactment of this Act if the taxpayer establishes to the satisfaction of the Secretary of the Treasury or the Secretary's delegate that on or before such date the taxpayer publicly identified the transaction in sufficient detail that the nature and scope of the transaction could be identified."

Bill Text - 111th Congress (2009-2010) - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

Cat, I hate to be so obtuse but what you furnished is a bill that delineates tax breaks the DO NOT get. My request was for tax breaks the DO GET for 'offshoring'. Based on the first few lines this bill 'amended by adding at the end the following new section'. Your use infers that there is verbage in the tax law that would allow such tax breaks then this added section denys such breaks. You may very well be correct which reinforces the need for reform in the tax laws. I mean if there are sections that allow the tax breaks why not just eliminate these sections rather than add more sections to override others.

Did you read the CFR link I provided? There is some very compelling arguments on both sides of the subject by various sources.

Dickieboy said:

Cat, I hate to be so obtuse but what you furnished is a bill that delineates tax breaks the DO NOT get. My request was for tax breaks the DO GET for 'offshoring'. Based on the first few lines this bill 'amended by adding at the end the following new section'. Your use infers that there is verbage in the tax law that would allow such tax breaks then this added section denys such breaks. You may very well be correct which reinforces the need for reform in the tax laws. I mean if there are sections that allow the tax breaks why not just eliminate these sections rather than add more sections to override others.

Did you read the CFR link I provided? There is some very compelling arguments on both sides of the subject by various sources.

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Dickie, the Senate bill delineates the tax breaks that would be eliminated, in addition to incentives to keep jobs and investment in the US. Yes, I did read your link. It discusses the tax breaks for outsourcing proposed to be eliminated in Senate Bill. Everything I've read makes me think this is necessary to help stem the outsourcing tide.

FreedomFromAll said:

Did that idiot lay out the outline of OWS. Did he conceive the idea of OWS. Did he buy a domain that is the internet hub for OWS? Has he done interviews where he admits to starting OWS with a vision of how it will play out?

Damn a photo of a strawman argument nice touch. Try as you might but Lasn is doing more than screaming like an idiot holding up ripped paper.



And this was just for irony

And just because you are clueless read this: but wait it gets better:

Oh and even better here are your Anarchists that started OWS they were all Adbusters about 50 of them:

Oh and then there is this part where Adbusters grapples with how to manipulate the 99%:

So what were you saying? That Lasn was like that guy in the hat you posted? Not the "driving force"?

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Good post, FreedomFromAll.

You've provided some new information as well as reiterating stuff that has already been brought to light in this thread. Anyone who is able to add 2+2 can see that Lasn and his buddies are the driving force behind OWS.

The problem for our two progressive friends here is that all they can bring themselves to accept is "hashtags and posters".

TheDemSocialist said:

Now you are just using excuses like conspiracy theorists... We comprehended it fine. You didnt. You believed it was something it was not.
You sound like a conspiracy theorist. Using all these excuses.


Naa that wasnt me 200 posts ago...

Im not lazy. You are the one being lazy. You do not know how debating works. When people make an accusation (you are the one making accusations.), especially the one you are claiming him being a radical, the leader, and manipulating the people of the movement, people will ask for a source to the claim, and proof. You then say "go out and find it yourself". See that is now how debating works. Usually the one who makes the claim has sourrces for those claims. People who do not have sources or cant provide them usually are the ones who just make **** up.. (You)

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Are you sure you want to say something like that highlighted text???

Was this your post?

Post #156

TheDemSocialist said:

?

Key Organizers and Affiliates | The New York Observer

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And here is my response.

Post #162

Mycroft said:

I'm concerned more along the lines of:

After the Encampments | Adbusters Culturejammer Headquarters

Micah M. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Adbusters Suggests Occupy Wall Street "Declare 'Victory'" and Head Home for Winter | Mother Jones

Adbusters [must-read profile of the maniacal anti-capitalists behind Occupy Wall Street]

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That was all well over 200 posts ago. Also, in that part of this thread, FreedomForAll and Aderleth provided other links and information. But you continue to insist that no evidence has been provided.

Dude, I think YOUR concept of debate is faulty...not mine. I've given you evidence that you ignore and all you can do is stubbornly deny that I have provided any links. And, out of all the links provided over and over, the only thing you see is "hashtags and posters".

There's an old saying that applies here: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

But, at least the horse doesn't whine about being thirsty.

An interesting perspective on the OWS as part of an awakening of values for the human race, as explained exceptionally well in this documentary.


***Warning - Videos contain some graphic images***

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Catawba said:

*** Warning - Graphic images ***

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This is not the Conspiracy theories forum...

FreedomFromAll said:

This is not the Conspiracy theories forum...

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Its a forum about the OWS, that together with the other revolutions around the world, could spark the social awakening discussed in the documentary.

FreedomFromAll said:

Did that idiot lay out the outline of OWS. Did he conceive the idea of OWS. Did he buy a domain that is the internet hub for OWS? Has he done interviews where he admits to starting OWS with a vision of how it will play out?

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Adbusters didn't do those first two things either. And buying a domain name and making bogus claims proves nothing except that they know there are wingnuts stupid enough to beleive them.

Damn a photo of a strawman argument nice touch. Try as you might but Lasn is doing more than screaming like an idiot holding up ripped paper.

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So after asking who Lasn was, now you "suddenly" know who he is?

Busted much? :lamo

And this was just for irony

And just because you are clueless read this: but wait it gets better:

Oh and even better here are your Anarchists that started OWS they were all Adbusters about 50 of them:

Oh and then there is this part where Adbusters grapples with how to manipulate the 99%:

So what were you saying? That Lasn was like that guy in the hat you posted? Not the "driving force"?

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Umm, I guess you don't realize that all those "plans" were the exact same things protesters have been doing since the 60's:

"asymmetrical warfare strategies", "marked escalation of surprise, playful, precision disruptions", "bank occupations", "edgy theatrics", "signs, meetings, camps, marches", "erected a small stage and began giving amplified speeches", “horizontal” organizing methods, "general assemblies and participants make decisions by consensus and give continuous feedback through hand gestures" were, AS YOUR OWN QUOTE STATES

left-wing traditions stretching back to the civil-rights movement and earlier

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And you think that means that Lasn invented them? :roll:

sangha said:

Adbusters didn't do those first two things either. And buying a domain name and making bogus claims proves nothing except that they know there are wingnuts stupid enough to beleive them.

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WTH are you talking about?

So after asking who Lasn was, now you "suddenly" know who he is?

Busted much? :lamo

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Ok what exactly are you accusing me of here? Let me in on it it seems entertaining.

Umm, I guess you don't realize that all those "plans" were the exact same things protesters have been doing since the 60's:

"asymmetrical warfare strategies", "marked escalation of surprise, playful, precision disruptions", "bank occupations", "edgy theatrics", "signs, meetings, camps, marches", "erected a small stage and began giving amplified speeches", “horizontal” organizing methods, "general assemblies and participants make decisions by consensus and give continuous feedback through hand gestures" were, AS YOUR OWN QUOTE STATES



And you think that means that Lasn invented them? :roll:ic conversation.

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Invented? WTH are you making up now? When did I say that Lasn invented something? Are you sure you have a clue what you are going on about? I mean I dont really know what you are trying to claim here.

Wake said:

I have heard that the OWS is not against capitalism at all, though I have seen many OWS groups and signs that indicate they are indeed against capitalism. What is the truth? Are they against capitalism or not? I wuld reason that during their earlier days they came to protest against businesses and corporations, which are all a part of capitalism. What do you think about this? I see OWS members on YouTube chanting against the crimes of capitalism while holding their signs that reflect their belief.

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I can’t speak for all the OWS protesters but I do know most of the active ones from my university and every one of them is an anti-capitalist.

GPS_Flex said:

I can’t speak for all the OWS protesters but I do know most of the active ones from my university and every one of them is an anti-capitalist.

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And of these, how many can think for themselves, and then speak for themselves ?
Believe me, its much easier to "go with the flow" rather than duel windmills, or buck the tide of human opinion...
IMO, capitalism works, but must be regulated in a way that benefits society. And this is the tricky thing to do.
Right now, obviously, the playing field is tilted to favor the wealthy.
OWS sees this and is rightfully protesting, to which , I applaud them.
IMO, this whole protest thing would be un-necessary if those powers that are would just leave their sanctuary of their ivory towers and listen to the people.

FreedomFromAll said:

WTH are you talking about?



Ok what exactly are you accusing me of here? Let me in on it it seems entertaining.



Invented? WTH are you making up now? When did I say that Lasn invented something? Are you sure you have a clue what you are going on about? I mean I dont really know what you are trying to claim here.

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I see you've returned to disingenous - a sure sign you've run out of arguments

sangha said:

I see you've returned to disingenous - a sure sign you've run out of arguments

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Why should I argue with you? You misrepresent my position and have become irrelevant since you did not make any sense. I asked you questions so that you could clarify WTH you are talking about, you ignored those questions and through out an insult instead.

You have made it clear that you do not intend to have a civil conversation several posts a go. Didnt you notice that you killed the discussion?