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Is solar green

sawyerloggingon

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I live off grid and my house is 100% solar, at least when we have sunny days that is. I have real doubts though about large scale industrial solar power plants and just how green they really are. The warmer cult has taken over all the main environmental groups and the philosophy seems to be, if it doesn’t produce c02 it’s good, it’s green and we like it. There are a lot o fenvironmental concerns though with these solar plants that need to be considered before rushing headlong into this alternative energy source. Hydropower doesn’t produce c02 either but it sure does play havoc with river ecosystems. Maybe we should look before we leap this time.


So, when it comes to solar farms, what types of environmental impacts can be expected?
First and foremost is the disruption of what might have been pristine property. Obviously, construction is intensive, but even the fact of having large parabolic solar panels or mirrors taking up acres of land. Migration routes and habitat of wildlife, flora and fauna could be displaced.
Often, new solar installation sites are graded, sprayed with weed control chemicals and shaded. Each one of these steps will change the dynamics of the original function of the land with respect to plant and animal inhabitants. Humans will be present on a more regular basis, likely driving to the site in vehicles and disposing of trash, etc. through maintenance and operation of the solar power plants.

solar-thermal_ORxjh_69.webp

Solar Farms Environmental Impact | Solar Power - PV Panels


Yet despite the environmental risks, Kyl and his staff say proponents of the renewable energy technology have continued to press for building more solar plants in the desert. “Despite the seriousness of [the state's] water constraints, solar power companies have largely ignored water concerns and continue to propose water-intensive conventional CSP plants in Arizona.”
The policy report, which stunned both the solar power industry and policymakers, comes as the Obama administration pushes for a significant expansion of renewable energy nationwide, including in Arizona’s Sonoran Desert region, which ranks second only to the Mojave Desert in the number of proposed solar power projects.

Solar Issues in the Desert Southwest - By Greg Pollowitz - Planet Gore - National Review Online#



From the literature available on related ground disturbance, many desert processes would be altered, grossly affecting many habitat qualities. So far the following have been found to be profoundly affected:
soil density
water infiltration rate
likelihood of erosion
secondary plant succession
invasion by alien plants, and
stability of soil crusts.
Drainage patterns would obviously be disturbed by ground preparation, changing plant communities' water supplies and killing by root dessication.
A desert with roads is changed far beyond the imagination of a road user. A study in southern Nevada found Agassiz's tortoise activity affected up to 4000m from a road. Edge enhancement (meaning plant and herbivore proliferation alongside roads) inevitably means attraction of species such as tortoise to the road, leading to previous figures being produced on increased vehicle strikes. Fragmentation of habitat by the roads has affected desert ecology in many ways, with bighorn sheep the tortoise spp. and mule deer already restricted in genetic exchange as well as migration (creating bottlenecks, for example) and general movement with resultant range reduction.
Noise pollution mainly during the construction (and decommissioning) phases would have great effects on many different species of animal. Rattlesnakes could have a field day, as kangaroo rats have been proved to be less able to detect predators (partly due to loss of hearing). The quiet nature of solar energy belies its ability to encourage traffic flow and the need for large numbers of pumps and fans, particularly for the preferred dry cooling systems. Uniquely worrying too are those concentrated beans of reflected light. These have been recorded killing birds and flying insects, but the heat involved can transport downwind to create drought conditions. That particular micro-climate can only be expected to damage these ultra-sensitive habitats.

Arizona argument: The impact of renewable energy | Energy | The Earth Times
 
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I live off grid and my house is 100% solar, at least when we have sunny days that is. I have real doubts though about large scale industrial solar power plants and just how green they really are. The warmer cult has taken over all the main environmental groups and the philosophy seems to be, if it doesn’t produce c02 it’s good, it’s green and we like it. There are a lot o fenvironmental concerns though with these solar plants that need to be considered before rushing headlong into this alternative energy source. Hydropower doesn’t produce c02 either but it sure does play havoc with river ecosystems. Maybe we should look before we leap this time.


So, when it comes to solar farms, what types of environmental impacts can be expected?
First and foremost is the disruption of what might have been pristine property. Obviously, construction is intensive, but even the fact of having large parabolic solar panels or mirrors taking up acres of land. Migration routes and habitat of wildlife, flora and fauna could be displaced.
Often, new solar installation sites are graded, sprayed with weed control chemicals and shaded. Each one of these steps will change the dynamics of the original function of the land with respect to plant and animal inhabitants. Humans will be present on a more regular basis, likely driving to the site in vehicles and disposing of trash, etc. through maintenance and operation of the solar power plants.

View attachment 67129368

Solar Farms Environmental Impact | Solar Power - PV Panels


Yet despite the environmental risks, Kyl and his staff say proponents of the renewable energy technology have continued to press for building more solar plants in the desert. “Despite the seriousness of [the state's] water constraints, solar power companies have largely ignored water concerns and continue to propose water-intensive conventional CSP plants in Arizona.”
The policy report, which stunned both the solar power industry and policymakers, comes as the Obama administration pushes for a significant expansion of renewable energy nationwide, including in Arizona’s Sonoran Desert region, which ranks second only to the Mojave Desert in the number of proposed solar power projects.

Solar Issues in the Desert Southwest - By Greg Pollowitz - Planet Gore - National Review Online#



From the literature available on related ground disturbance, many desert processes would be altered, grossly affecting many habitat qualities. So far the following have been found to be profoundly affected:
soil density
water infiltration rate
likelihood of erosion
secondary plant succession
invasion by alien plants, and
stability of soil crusts.
Drainage patterns would obviously be disturbed by ground preparation, changing plant communities' water supplies and killing by root dessication.
A desert with roads is changed far beyond the imagination of a road user. A study in southern Nevada found Agassiz's tortoise activity affected up to 4000m from a road. Edge enhancement (meaning plant and herbivore proliferation alongside roads) inevitably means attraction of species such as tortoise to the road, leading to previous figures being produced on increased vehicle strikes. Fragmentation of habitat by the roads has affected desert ecology in many ways, with bighorn sheep the tortoise spp. and mule deer already restricted in genetic exchange as well as migration (creating bottlenecks, for example) and general movement with resultant range reduction.
Noise pollution mainly during the construction (and decommissioning) phases would have great effects on many different species of animal. Rattlesnakes could have a field day, as kangaroo rats have been proved to be less able to detect predators (partly due to loss of hearing). The quiet nature of solar energy belies its ability to encourage traffic flow and the need for large numbers of pumps and fans, particularly for the preferred dry cooling systems. Uniquely worrying too are those concentrated beans of reflected light. These have been recorded killing birds and flying insects, but the heat involved can transport downwind to create drought conditions. That particular micro-climate can only be expected to damage these ultra-sensitive habitats.

Arizona argument: The impact of renewable energy | Energy | The Earth Times

The thing is, every source of energy has some kind of price. None of it is "free." If it isn't this, it's a huge coal plant spewing ugly **** into the sky, or a wind farm that may or may not affect migratory birds. Or nuclear, which while it shouldn't be ruled out, does have a very nasty waste product that we haven't figured out what to do with.

I dunno. I'm not saying "Yay solar, free power!" Just that there's a price for all of it.
 
The thing is, every source of energy has some kind of price. None of it is "free." If it isn't this, it's a huge coal plant spewing ugly **** into the sky, or a wind farm that may or may not affect migratory birds. Or nuclear, which while it shouldn't be ruled out, does have a very nasty waste product that we haven't figured out what to do with.

I dunno. I'm not saying "Yay solar, free power!" Just that there's a price for all of it.[/
QUOTE]

My point exactly, thankyou.
 
The solution is to have one of those solar towers on the picture beside every suburb, working in co-generation mode (producing electricity and heat for hot water and space heating). :) Minimal electricity transition loss, synchronised demand (for example, when there is strong demand for air conditioning, this is also the time the plant produces peak electricity and the opposite - no sunshine-> less air-conditioning-> less electricity demand).
The land under the mirrors is not useless at all. In fact, it's a perfect pasture. Every cow, sheep or chicken will be glad to take cover under a mirror in a hot summer day. ;) Weed problem solved. :) Enjoy your solar organic stake. :)
 
It's better than tha alternatives. Ya don't have ta deal with wastes and chemicals. No worryin' about nuclear meltdowns, either.

Solar is NOT an alternative UNLESS it can be stored, at best it is now a supplement, usefull during peak sunny daytime demand.
 
Solar is NOT an alternative UNLESS it can be stored, at best it is now a supplement, usefull during peak sunny daytime demand.

It is. :)



Now, there will have to be a back up for rainy and winter day. I think a biomass furnace will suffice.
Solar is as green as it gets! It's practically an endless resource, unlike fossil fuels.
 
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Can tha electricity be stored?

No and thats the problem with all these 'silver bullet' schemes to replace fossil fuel usage.

Once we clear the warmist carbon Nazis out of our way coal/oil synthesisation would allow us to continue cheaply using the current transmission infrastructure for at least another 100 years or more. The Germans used this process in WW2 so I'm sure we could do it far more cleanly and efficiently today.
 
It is. :)



Now, there will have to be a back up for rainy and winter day. I think a biomass furnace will suffice.
Solar is as green as it gets! It's practically an endless resource, unlike fossil fuels.


No numbers were given, in the video, except to say that "up to" 15 hours of storage were "possible". It did not state, at what capacity, e.g. 100% or 20% of "peak" output. The issue with MOST solar power is that the capacity is VERY limitted as are the locatons that make it a reliable 24/7/365 option. What may work in a sparsely populated southern desert area, may well not suffice in a densely populated northern environment (e.g. Seattle or Boston). I am all for TRYING these things, using private funds, but NOT for dumping huge amounts of tax money into "wishfull" research/demonstration facilities. As the video proudly points out, this is the FIRST such solar facility, not that it is viable, tested or even what its sustained and RELIABLE power capacity is. It appears to lack ANY redundancy or ability to be maintained; typically a power facility has multiple generators so that some may be placed offline for service, while the others continue to provide adequate power capacity.
 
No numbers were given, in the video, except to say that "up to" 15 hours of storage were "possible". It did not state, at what capacity, e.g. 100% or 20% of "peak" output.

You didn't watch carefully. The man says that this thermal battery can run the turbines 15 hours at full speed.
This is the future. :cool:

The only reason why we think this is expensive (although there is virtually no fuel with all it's cost of handling and disposal) is because we take all those cheap fossil fuels power stations for granted. They are cheap because they are credit form future generations.
 
You didn't watch carefully. The man says that this thermal battery can run the turbines 15 hours at full speed.
This is the future. :cool:

The only reason why we think this is expensive (although there is virtually no fuel with all it's cost of handling and disposal) is because we take all those cheap fossil fuels power stations for granted. They are cheap because they are credit form future generations.

The day these 'alternatives'can run without massive taxpayer subsidy and costly standby power generation for when the sun dont shine or the wind dont blow I'll stick with the devil I know. The simple fact is that with the technology level we are at today there would simply be no alternative power generation without that subsidy and if the free market were truly in play these 'alternatives' would cease to exist.

The cost vs return of every incremental advance in these technologies is increasing at an exponential rate to the point where we have to address the fact that perhaps these are a technological cul de sac that will never deliver what they promise. I certainly feel we have reached that point with windpower and electric cars but the jurys still out for solar and the omens arent all that good for it either in my view .
 
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"The Energy Storage Challenge
and an introduction to the storage concept

Needs for significant improvements in energy storage technology have emerged as one of the foremost challenges that the world is facing today. Large scale, efficient energy storage is a key technology for achieving better efficiency and enhanced environmental performance for the international energy sector. In fact, most countries have few, if any, means of storing energy on a large scale. Lacking storage capabilities have significant implications on the way energy is used and priced, and does also imply great obstacles to introduction on a large scale of renewable energy sources such as wind and solar power.

NEST AS has developed a technology for large-scale, stationary energy storage. The solution is Patent Pending and the technology is described in detail in reports and drawings. The storage concept is scalable to almost an unlimited degree and can easily be built by standardized modules of inexpensive material. The system, which stores energy in form of heat, can easily be connected with thermal power plants and thereby facilitate a variable and optimal energy delivery from such sources. Equally important, the energy storage system can be adapted in terms of thermal regime and storage capacity to almost any type of fossil fuel (coal, oil, gas) or nuclear power plant. Remarkably, this may be done without any significant loss of energy.

The system may also be connected with regional or local electrical power grids to store energy for the purpose of responding to variable industry and consumer demands in short and long time cycles. In such case there will be a significant loss of energy due to conversion from heat back to electricity; however, the storage can operate in a high temperature regime where such loss becomes as small as virtually possible within the limitations of the physical laws of thermodynamics. Solar, wind and wave power are generally looked upon as main sources of renewable power for the future. Unfortunately such power sources are not continuous in their delivery of power and are to a large extent also unreliable because of their dependence of weather conditions. Being able to store energy when available and deliver when needed is of great value within the contexts of meeting market needs and reliability of delivery. The current energy storage technology can provide solutions that provide significant value in such contexts. The storage makes use of mainly inexpensive and energy friendly materials that are readily available almost anywhere; this implies that the capital cost per unit energy storage capability will be relatively low. The system is very safe and may without problems be built within cities or industrial areas."

Forside - Nest Energy

Things...they be a changin'
 
Ya can store solar energy. (web.anl.gov/solar/primer/primer5.html)

Yeah, but that's the part where solar definitely becomes non-green. The problem isn't in generation - it's in storage and transmission. We lose 47% of the electrity we generate in the transmission. The storage, that's an evironmental nightmare headed for peak lithium and peak virtually every other high tech material.

That's why I believe the best bet is local generation and use where possible supplimented where necessary by the grid. Micro and small hydro is way under-utilized.
 
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The day these 'alternatives'can run without massive taxpayer subsidy and costly standby power generation for when the sun dont shine or the wind dont blow I'll stick with the devil I know. The simple fact is that with the technology level we are at today there would simply be no alternative power generation without that subsidy and if the free market were truly in play these 'alternatives' would cease to exist.

It's the golden rule, you know: privatise the profits, socialise the loses. Meaning take the money from power selling and socialise air pollution. So far the air is common not only for America but for the whole planet, which makes things complicated and responsibility vague, since everybody (the Chinese too) can **** in the air virtually for free.
 
You didn't watch carefully. The man says that this thermal battery can run the turbines 15 hours at full speed.
This is the future. :cool:

The only reason why we think this is expensive (although there is virtually no fuel with all it's cost of handling and disposal) is because we take all those cheap fossil fuels power stations for granted. They are cheap because they are credit form future generations.

And the rest of the missing power generation numbers? Many areas of the world experience 10 (or more) hours of darkness DAILY, so that leaves 10 hours of "reserve" in the battery, even assuming that only 50% power is needed during a typical night, so two days of greatly reduced "sunshine" may still easily "pop" this solar bubble. ;-)
 
400 years ago we peeps didn't know how ta use electricity. Tha earliest attempts through science made ya a pawn of tha devil. Witchcraft. Science found a way. It'll keep doin' so. Ya'll should be patient. Our brightest minds'll find better ways ta store it. :sun
 
It's the golden rule, you know: privatise the profits, socialise the loses. Meaning take the money from power selling and socialise air pollution. So far the air is common not only for America but for the whole planet, which makes things complicated and responsibility vague, since everybody (the Chinese too) can **** in the air virtually for free.

People in emerging nations cannot afford to choose thier power supply source based on Western middle class moralities. They will choose the cheapest provider possible. Its easy in the West to pontificate to others about the more expensive choices they should make for the good of the planet when sitting in a comfy living room at a laptop but I'm afraid they simply wont get it when thier money is in short supply and they have mouths to feed.

The whole concept of the Western green utopia is lost on you when you can no longer afford to pay your utility bills :(
 
And the rest of the missing power generation numbers? Many areas of the world experience 10 (or more) hours of darkness DAILY, so that leaves 10 hours of "reserve" in the battery, even assuming that only 50% power is needed during a typical night, so two days of greatly reduced "sunshine" may still easily "pop" this solar bubble. ;-)

Already told ya, you need a back up for rainy days and winter. Burning biomass to make steam for the turbine is what I can imagine now. Gas turbines as a back up would be the second option. Hoover dams of any kind, third. Geothermal, wind, tidal...
 
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The whole concept of the Western green utopia is lost on you when you can no longer afford to pay your utility bills :(

Yeah, is a global natural catastrophe preferable? I know, you'll say this is all just fantasies. They are not.
 
400 years ago we peeps didn't know how ta use electricity. Tha earliest attempts through science made ya a pawn of tha devil. Witchcraft. Science found a way. It'll keep doin' so. Ya'll should be patient. Our brightest minds'll find better ways ta store it. :sun

Not even close. The Partian jar (250 BCE to 250 CE) is the first example we're found of electricity use and is essentially the same battery tech we use today. That's a hell of a long time to wait for new tech. :mrgreen:
 
Not even close. The Partian jar (250 BCE to 250 CE) is the first example we're found of electricity use and is essentially the same battery tech we use today. That's a hell of a long time to wait for new tech. :mrgreen:

Indeed CB . The military (who have no shareholders to anwer to), have been throwing unlimited sums at this problem of battery storage since the submarine was invented and they havent cracked it yet . Todays diesel electric boats have batteries only marginally more efficient than those of thier WW2 predecessors
 
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