Is religion just a story for adults?

[Tetelestai]

This is laughable. Translation: If you believe he exists then he does, regardless of whether there's any proof. I also find it laughable that you'd think I that I'd actually care what the Bible claims.

Just as I said you would. The Bible never said that the cross would be used as the symbol for Jesus Christ. The Bible never mentioned Laminin. The Bible tells the story of Jesus Christ. But scientists find a molecule that is shaped like His symbol. It has been in the body since long before Jesus Christ walked on the earth. It IS proof, but you will not accept it. I believe God brought us both to this place and time to honor your request for evidence through His servant, but you still deny Him... Just like I said you would. I will continue to pray for you.

 

[afr0byte]

Just as I said you would. The Bible never said that the cross would be used as the symbol for Jesus Christ. The Bible never mentioned Laminin. The Bible tells the story of Jesus Christ. But scientists find a molecule that is shaped like His symbol. It has been in the body since long before Jesus Christ walked on the earth. It IS proof, but you will not accept it. I believe God brought us both to this place and time to honor your request for evidence through His servant, but you still deny Him... Just like I said you would. I will continue to pray for you.

Wow, aren't we the arrogant one.

Anyways, a molecule having the same shape as an item in a book in no way provides proof that the Christian God exists. Many science fiction writers have predicted devices that came to be, in much the same form as they said. According to your logic that means that those science fiction books must be divine, no? I mean the book said it would happen, and it did! Plus, how do you know the laminin aren't a sign that we're going to be tortured by Romans? I mean the cross was used long before Jesus was supposedly out on one, no?

Regarding God bringing us together. That just sounds insane. Yes obviously I'm going to deny the ramblings of what appear to be a crazy person. Besides, if a Hindu/Jane/etc came up to me and said something similar, how would I know whether to believe them or you?

 

[zgoldsmith23]

You guys have the same limitations. You don't have one shred of evidence that points to your notion that there is no God. I, on the other hand, have many witnesses to the contrary, subjective or not. You want to be a nay sayer and a denier... go for it. I choose to believe, but it's more than that. I have no choice but to believe. I have met God the Father. I know Him. I could no more deny Him than you could deny that there is water on the planet earth.

There is evidence that makes "god" quite unnecessary. Answer me this, when you met "god the father" was he announcing what was for lunch that day and ask you to say the Pledge of Allegiance? Did you meet him in Central Park or other public area? And who would deny there's water on the planet? Considering the person that does deny that denies that they, his- or herself, exist.

But they also refer to His followers which is very important.
Since there is not much in history that can really be objectively proven, plausibility is probably a better word.

I mean, there are fossils. Those are objectively proven, no?

Let's use your simple David example. Does David exist? Yup. Can he actually run that fast? How could it be proven? Well it probably can't. Well, he would have to show me first so i can believe it you say.

Speedometer? And I do say that, yes. Good on you.

Surely you believe some things that you haven't ever seen. That is what plausibility means.

"Have seen" ≠ "Evidence for"

So what if there were 100 people there that watched him run it? Well we could say that they are all lying but maybe watching them after what they witnessed or maybe if i know one of the witnesses could give us a clue to their credibility.

Have him do it again wouldn't be too difficult, would it?

So let's parallel that with Jesus. Did he exist? Well yea probably. Was he divine? Let's look at the scene. Most historians agree that basically overnight a community of people sprang up and were following this Jesus. All this knowing that they might be harmed or killed because of it.

Following has nothing to do with divinity. Many cult leaders have followers yet the only thing they are divine at are being divinely good at preying on others.

So why? I happen to think that the resurrection is very plausible here. Returning from death can only be divine.

It can only be supernatural, yes, as it goes against the natural order.

The good news is that God doesn't condemn the naturalist inside all of us. He created us as rational thinking beings born into a world of scientific order. We need to see to believe.

He doesn't condemn them? Hmm. Seems odd. Mark 16:16 says otherwise: The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

Thomas, Jesus' own disciple didn't believe until he could see. So Jesus showed him His hands to prove it, but at the same time was showing him that in His divinity he wasn't limited to the laws of science.

Again, that's purely anecdotal and has absolutely no objectivity. Try again.

 

[Tetelestai]

There is evidence that makes "god" quite unnecessary. Answer me this, when you met "god the father" was he announcing what was for lunch that day and ask you to say the Pledge of Allegiance? Did you meet him in Central Park or other public area? And who would deny there's water on the planet? Considering the person that does deny that denies that they, his- or herself, exist.



I mean, there are fossils. Those are objectively proven, no?



Yes, there are fossils. Who ever said there wasn't. If you were to die and be encased in limestone, you would be a fossil as well. That has nothing to do with anything is this conversation. No, God has no need to announce things like that. But He has, at times when needed, let me know things that really avoided trouble or helped me/ someone else, when needed. When praying for people, I was able to know about and pray for things in their lives with no knowledge of them whatsoever. And I mean specifics, not generalities. When I met the Lord, there was a supernatural power all over me. It was like nothing I ever experienced before. And I wasn't in some service, being manipulated by anyone or anything else. I was alone. I will never be able to deny what I experienced. After that experience, everything about me was supernaturally changed. Not because someone was telling me what to do, not because I was being preached at, but because it came from within. You can mock me and ridicule me in any way you want, but I know my Lord... PERSONALLY. Just like you know your best friend!

 

[Tetelestai]

Wow, aren't we the arrogant one.

Anyways, a molecule having the same shape as an item in a book in no way provides proof that the Christian God exists. Many science fiction writers have predicted devices that came to be, in much the same form as they said. According to your logic that means that those science fiction books must be divine, no? I mean the book said it would happen, and it did! Plus, how do you know the laminin aren't a sign that we're going to be tortured by Romans? I mean the cross was used long before Jesus was supposedly out on one, no?

Regarding God bringing us together. That just sounds insane. Yes obviously I'm going to deny the ramblings of what appear to be a crazy person. Besides, if a Hindu/Jane/etc came up to me and said something similar, how would I know whether to believe them or you?

Maybe I was, but it's none the less true. When provided with what I see as evidence, you mocked it and denied it. If Jesus Christ had stood right in front of you and did the same thing, you would reject it as well. Because you are bent at explaining everything away with science and reason. That is what that scripture was about. It was saying that there are people who feel that they are so intelligent and wise that they can explain everything away, and maybe in the natural you can. But the things of God are of the Spirit and they are Spiritually discerned. Your own mind with it's intelligence and earthly wisdom are robbing you of life in our true realm... the spiritual realm. I know you think this is foolishness, the scripture pointed that out in the first place. It wasn't arrogant, it was pointing out the truth in earthly arrogance, that's all.

 

[afr0byte]

Maybe I was, but it's none the less true. When provided with what I see as evidence, you mocked it and denied it. If Jesus Christ had stood right in front of you and did the same thing, you would reject it as well. Because you are bent at explaining everything away with science and reason. That is what that scripture was about. It was saying that there are people who feel that they are so intelligent and wise that they can explain everything away, and maybe in the natural you can. But the things of God are of the Spirit and they are Spiritually discerned. Your own mind with it's intelligence and earthly wisdom are robbing you of life in our true realm... the spiritual realm. I know you think this is foolishness, the scripture pointed that out in the first place. It wasn't arrogant, it was pointing out the truth in earthly arrogance, that's all.

If a man that claimed to be Jesus stood in front of me I'd assume he was a man unless he demonstrated otherwise (He didn't seem to have a problem turning water in to wine in the Bible, for example.). Anyways, would you please answer this question: "Besides, if a Hindu/Jane/etc came up to me and said something similar, how would I know whether to believe them or you?" Also, what proof would it take you to realize that the Hindu gods are real? If you think that's silly, then you understand why I mock your supposed proof.

 

[Tetelestai]

If a man that claimed to be Jesus stood in front of me I'd assume he was a man unless he demonstrated otherwise (He didn't seem to have a problem turning water in to wine in the Bible, for example.). Anyways, would you please answer this question: "Besides, if a Hindu/Jane/etc came up to me and said something similar, how would I know whether to believe them or you?" Also, what proof would it take you to realize that the Hindu gods are real? If you think that's silly, then you understand why I mock your supposed proof.

Actually, I fully understand the question. I didn't know who was right for a long, long time. I searched and prayed asking God to reveal to me the truth about who He is. Then, 2 years or so later, He did just that. In a very powerful way. I really, and I know you don't understand it, but I couldn't ever deny it. If you are humble enough to ask God to reveal Himself, He will... without exception. That is how I came to know the real God. And I am "painfully" aware of the witness that most "so called" Christians give you. What people have done "in the name of the Lord" is horrific and nauseating. Including what "so called" churches do today in trying to put people under Mosaic law and robbing them of their money by demanding a "tithe". It's absolutely sickening! I fully understand why people run from Christianity these days. People have turned it into a career choice and a business. It's no longer the "community of believers" that Christ and the Apostles started years ago. They are hypocrites and liars and the truth is not in them. Some are just misled, but others are just stealing from people. But there is a remnant that actually believes the truth and seeks to build a community of believers that will manifest the Lord on this earth again. Are we perfect? Absolutely not! But we follow our Father in Heaven and we seek to be what His Spirit leads us to be.

 

[afr0byte]

Actually, I fully understand the question. I didn't know who was right for a long, long time. I searched and prayed asking God to reveal to me the truth about who He is. Then, 2 years or so later, He did just that. In a very powerful way. I really, and I know you don't understand it, but I couldn't ever deny it. If you are humble enough to ask God to reveal Himself, He will... without exception. That is how I came to know the real God. And I am "painfully" aware of the witness that most "so called" Christians give you. What people have done "in the name of the Lord" is horrific and nauseating. Including what "so called" churches do today in trying to put people under Mosaic law and robbing them of their money by demanding a "tithe". It's absolutely sickening! I fully understand why people run from Christianity these days. People have turned it into a career choice and a business. It's no longer the "community of believers" that Christ and the Apostles started years ago. They are hypocrites and liars and the truth is not in them. Some are just misled, but others are just stealing from people. But there is a remnant that actually believes the truth and seeks to build a community of believers that will manifest the Lord on this earth again. Are we perfect? Absolutely not! But we follow our Father in Heaven and we seek to be what His Spirit leads us to be.

How do you know you wouldn't have chosen the Hindu gods if you lived in India? Also, you didn't answer my second question. What proof would it take you to realize that the Hindu gods are real? I'm sure Hindus would probably say you just have to open your heart to these gods and you'll find the proof (or something similar). Does this not sound silly to you? If it does, why do you think it does (sound silly)? Btw, you can stop trying to preach. I'm not interested.

 

[Tetelestai]

How do you know you wouldn't have chosen the Hindu gods if you lived in India? Also, you didn't answer my second question. What proof would it take you to realize that the Hindu gods are real? I'm sure Hindus would probably say you just have to open your heart to these gods and you'll find the proof (or something similar). Does this not sound silly to you? If it does, why do you think it does (sound silly)? Btw, you can stop trying to preach. I'm not interested.

I wasn't attempting to preach, I was simply telling you some of my story in an attempt to answer your question. I would expect their God to meet if I asked him to. Just like Jesus Christ did for me. He met me that day because I asked for the truth. When I did pray and ask for the truth, if they were real, I am sure they would have answered. I don't think it sounds silly, it's a legitimate question. Also, look at what other religions ask people to do for their salvation. Every other religion has a written set of rules you have to follow, including the religious Christians. But Jesus Christ and His true Church have but two laws to follow...

1. Love the Lord your God with all of you soul, spirit and strength.

2. Love one another as I have loved you. This is how men will know that you are my disciples, that you love one another.

That's it, nothing more. That's the real difference between a religion and true and authentic Christianity.

 

[afr0byte]

I wasn't attempting to preach, I was simply telling you some of my story in an attempt to answer your question. I would expect their God to meet if I asked him to. Just like Jesus Christ did for me. He met me that day because I asked for the truth. When I did pray and ask for the truth, if they were real, I am sure they would have answered. I don't think it sounds silly, it's a legitimate question. Also, look at what other religions ask people to do for their salvation. Every other religion has a written set of rules you have to follow, including the religious Christians. But Jesus Christ and His true Church have but two laws to follow...

1. Love the Lord your God with all of you soul, spirit and strength.

2. Love one another as I have loved you. This is how men will know that you are my disciples, that you love one another.

That's it, nothing more. That's the real difference between a religion and true and authentic Christianity.

Sigh. You are truly blinded to rational thought. That's your right I suppose. You didn't respond to the opening your heart bit of my last post. Have you truly opened your heart to the Hindu gods? If not, then how do you know they don't exist? If you did you'd see the truth.

 

[Stopandthink]

There is evidence that makes "god" quite unnecessary. Answer me this, when you met "god the father" was he announcing what was for lunch that day and ask you to say the Pledge of Allegiance? Did you meet him in Central Park or other public area? And who would deny there's water on the planet? Considering the person that does deny that denies that they, his- or herself, exist.



1)I mean, there are fossils. Those are objectively proven, no?



2)Speedometer? And I do say that, yes. Good on you.



3)"Have seen" ≠ "Evidence for"



4)Have him do it again wouldn't be too difficult, would it?



5)Following has nothing to do with divinity. Many cult leaders have followers yet the only thing they are divine at are being divinely good at preying on others.



6)It can only be supernatural, yes, as it goes against the natural order.



7)He doesn't condemn them? Hmm. Seems odd. Mark 16:16 says otherwise: The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who does not believe will be condemned.



8)Again, that's purely anecdotal and has absolutely no objectivity. Try again.

1) Sure to the extent of how we can test and interpret the data. Historical narratives regarding these objects simply cannot be fully verified, only logically explored and tested to be plausible.
2) Yes but remember you didn't see him run. Others saw it and tested it. They said it was speed of sound
3) huh?
4) maybe he doesn't want to, he gets super tired and sore
5) these folks really had nothing to gain, many were killed.
6) yes
7) what I mean is he doesn't condemn for wanting to see evidence. If I ultimately reject it because I can't see, that is different.
8) it's plausible

 

[Tetelestai]

Sigh. You are truly blinded to rational thought. That's your right I suppose. You didn't respond to the opening your heart bit of my last post. Have you truly opened your heart to the Hindu gods? If not, then how do you know they don't exist? If you did you'd see the truth.

You missed what I said. I said that I prayed to God and asked Him to show me the truth. Any god, if real, could have (and I believe would have) answered my prayer. Jesus Christ actually answered that prayer... in real terms in an environment where I know I wasn't being manipulated or emotional. His presence was as real to me as the computer you're using right now.

 

[afr0byte]

You missed what I said. I said that I prayed to God and asked Him to show me the truth. Any god, if real, could have (and I believe would have) answered my prayer. Jesus Christ actually answered that prayer... in real terms in an environment where I know I wasn't being manipulated or emotional. His presence was as real to me as the computer you're using right now.

How do you know it was the Christian God? How do you know it wasn't your previous experience, living in a nation with mostly Christians, that made you assume it was the Christian God? Why is it that this God feels the need to be secretive? If were a Hindu that said I'd had a similar experience, but with the Hindu gods, what would you say? Would you believe me? If so, why not? I'm sure many Hindus would say they've experienced the Hindu gods.

 

[Tetelestai]

How do you know it was the Christian God? How do you know it wasn't your previous experience, living in a nation with mostly Christians, that made you assume it was the Christian God? Why is it that this God feels the need to be secretive? If were a Hindu that said I'd had a similar experience, but with the Hindu gods, what would you say? Would you believe me? If so, why not? I'm sure many Hindus would say they've experienced the Hindu gods.

I know because He identified Himself to me. It wasn't my previous experience because I was taught differently. I don't think He is secretive. I believe He is willing to reveal Himself to anyone who really wants to know Him. Considering what I know now, I wouldn't believe him because I know my Lord. Back before I met Jesus Christ, well, I can't be sure anymore. It's been 30 years since my revelation. But I would think I would have taken him at his word and prayed as I did pray for the truth.

I am not even asking you to "buy my story". All I am asking is that you ask the Lord for yourself, for your own benefit. My words mean absolutely nothing except that it's a witness of the truth. If you find it to be false, then judge it that way and move on. It would be illogical and unreasonable for you to take the word of someone you have never met, like myself.

 

[afr0byte]

I know because He identified Himself to me. It wasn't my previous experience because I was taught differently. I don't think He is secretive. I believe He is willing to reveal Himself to anyone who really wants to know Him. Considering what I know now, I wouldn't believe him because I know my Lord. Back before I met Jesus Christ, well, I can't be sure anymore. It's been 30 years since my revelation. But I would think I would have taken him at his word and prayed as I did pray for the truth.

So, who is to say the Hindu is not correct, then? Clearly the Hindu gods revealed themselves to the Hindu guy/gal. Clearly we don't know who is correct in this case. From an objective point of view you don't have any proof, which is the point. How is your proof not just you choosing to believe a story that brings you comfort?

Again, you claim you're not preaching, but you clearly are. Again, I'm not interested. You can believe what you want, I just think it's dishonest and silly for you to say that I've been shown proof.

 

[Amadeus]

It seems like an awfully flawed plan, having Jesus die for our sins, and require that you believe in him for it to work. Is that the best thing God could come up with?

 

[afr0byte]

It seems like an awfully flawed plan, having Jesus die for our sins, and require that you believe in him for it to work. Is that the best thing God could come up with?

It's craziness. You have to believe their God exists to be able to supposedly see the proof. That sounds like a child and their imaginary friend to me.

 

[Tetelestai]

So, who is to say the Hindu is not correct, then? Clearly the Hindu gods revealed themselves to the Hindu guy/gal. Clearly we don't know who is correct in this case. From an objective point of view you don't have any proof, which is the point. How is your proof not just you choosing to believe a story that brings you comfort?

Again, you claim you're not preaching, but you clearly are. Again, I'm not interested. You can believe what you want, I just think it's dishonest and silly for you to say that I've been shown proof.

I am simply answering your questions. If it's coming off as preaching it's because your question can not be accurately answered in any other way. If I were to remove my experiences, it would lose any credibility at all, which is what I believe your end goal is. All I was trying to get at with Laminin is that there is a completely unexplainable correlation between the God that created us and holds us together and the base molecule that holds us together is His symbol. When He created us, He knew He would be crucified, therefore He placed His mark as the shape of that molecule. To me, it's proof. But as predicted, you won't accept proof of any kind unless you see the sea divided or water turned into wine, and maybe not even then. The people of Jesus' day had all of that happening around them and they still rejected Him. It's all about pride, from the time Adam sinned straight through today. That is why the Lord wants faith and humility. The God head itself, consisting of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit doesn't even have instances where one overrides the other in pride. In your quest for proof and in your pride thinking that you can demand anything from God you will always question and deny what is plain to see. If you are looking with clear eyes and understanding in your heart, all of creation demonstrates the wisdom and power of God. In arrogance, people just use anything they can find to try and explain God away. Do what is right in your own eyes, I will continue to give honor, praise and worship to the creator, my Lord... Jesus Christ.

 

[zgoldsmith23]

1) Sure to the extent of how we can test and interpret the data. Historical narratives regarding these objects simply cannot be fully verified, only logically explored and tested to be plausible.

There's also artifacts left over, etc. How do we know the Civil War happened? Well you can find plenty of relics from that era, such as belt buckles, bullets, etc.\

2) Yes but remember you didn't see him run. Others saw it and tested it. They said it was speed of sound

Still wouldn't be valid. Have him repeat it. Otherwise it's invalid.

3) huh?

Look at your previous post. It addresses it.

4) maybe he doesn't want to, he gets super tired and sore

Okay. Well when he feels strong enough, have him do it again. If he won't, it loses validity.

5) these folks really had nothing to gain, many were killed.

They thought they had something to gain. Maybe salvation?

6) yes

Glad we agree on Hume.

7) what I mean is he doesn't condemn for wanting to see evidence. If I ultimately reject it because I can't see, that is different.

If I ultimately reject it for a claim going against the natural order, lack of evidence, and just common sense.

8) it's plausible

How's it plausible? Dawn of the Dead maybe?

 

[Amadeus]

All I was trying to get at with Laminin is that there is a completely unexplainable correlation between the God that created us and holds us together and the base molecule that holds us together is His symbol. When He created us, He knew He would be crucified, therefore He placed His mark as the shape of that molecule. To me, it's proof.

Are you sure it's not the symbol of Quetzalcoatl?

View attachment 67146824

 

[afr0byte]

I am simply answering your questions. If it's coming off as preaching it's because your question can not be accurately answered in any other way. If I were to remove my experiences, it would lose any credibility at all, which is what I believe your end goal is. All I was trying to get at with Laminin is that there is a completely unexplainable correlation between the God that created us and holds us together and the base molecule that holds us together is His symbol. When He created us, He knew He would be crucified, therefore He placed His mark as the shape of that molecule. To me, it's proof. But as predicted, you won't accept proof of any kind unless you see the sea divided or water turned into wine, and maybe not even then. The people of Jesus' day had all of that happening around them and they still rejected Him. It's all about pride, from the time Adam sinned straight through today. That is why the Lord wants faith and humility. The God head itself, consisting of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit doesn't even have instances where one overrides the other in pride. In your quest for proof and in your pride thinking that you can demand anything from God you will always question and deny what is plain to see. If you are looking with clear eyes and understanding in your heart, all of creation demonstrates the wisdom and power of God. In arrogance, people just use anything they can find to try and explain God away. Do what is right in your own eyes, I will continue to give honor, praise and worship to the creator, my Lord... Jesus Christ.

I'm not asking you to remove your experience, but on a debate forum you can't just say "I've seen it and so it's true." and expect others to believe you. As far as proof, well of course I want supernatural proof for a supernatural claim like a God. Natural things can be explained by things other than a god. Also, I'm not demanding anything of your supposed God. I'm saying I don't believe because he's not provided me proof. If he wants me to believe he'll provide me that proof. I'm not asking him (I don't believe in him.) to show me proof. As far as the laminins, well, the fact that a molecule has a similar structure to a cross means nothing, especially since that molecule existed before the cross meant anything to anyone. Plus, how do you know the cross isn't meant to spread addition (the mathematical operation) as gospel? They're the same symbol and addition has existed since before Jesus. As far as the arrogance, that's your opinion I suppose. I wouldn't call someone arrogant if they didn't believe me when I said I have an invisible friend. It seems this arrogance label is merely a way to try and win converts.

 

[afr0byte]

Btw, here's a picture of your laminin: http://www.snopes.com/glurge/graphics/laminin3.jpg ...doesn't look like a cross to me

 

[Tetelestai]

I'm not asking you to remove your experience, but on a debate forum you can't just say "I've seen it and so it's true." and expect others to believe you. As far as proof, well of course I want supernatural proof for a supernatural claim like a God. Natural things can be explained by things other than a god. Also, I'm not demanding anything of your supposed God. I'm saying I don't believe because he's not provided me proof. If he wants me to believe he'll provide me that proof. I'm not asking him (I don't believe in him.) to show me proof. As far as the laminins, well, the fact that a molecule has a similar structure to a cross means nothing, especially since that molecule existed before the cross meant anything to anyone. Plus, how do you know the cross isn't meant to spread addition (the mathematical operation) as gospel? They're the same symbol and addition has existed since before Jesus. As far as the arrogance, that's your opinion I suppose. I wouldn't call someone arrogant if they didn't believe me when I said I have an invisible friend. It seems this arrogance label is merely a way to try and win converts.

I never asked you to just believe me. I have been encouraging you to ask "God, if you are real, please show yourself to me". It's that simple. If you are not willing to do a simple thing like that, I am sure God will not answer you. The only reason I used the word arrogant is actually because you used it on me first. You called my God arrogant because He dared say that He is God and that His wisdom is above the worlds/ mans wisdom. Well, it's not arrogant if it's true. I believe it to be true. I have seen it, so I know it to be true, but I encourage you to do your own search for the truth in humility rather than in pride. Saying you aren't demanding anything of God and saying you need "proof" is contradictive. My girlfriends mother was dying. She had gone into a hospital and contracted 3 forms of anti- biotic resistant bacteria. She was bleeding out and wasn't expected to live through the night. Her eyes had turned a cloudy gray. Her eyes closed and she got the "death rattle" in her breathing and she flat lined. God told my girlfriend to speak over her (I can't remember what her exact words were) and she came back to full life. Her eyes had turned a beautiful blue. She spoke of two angels that told her to return to her body. God told my girlfriend that her mother would live another year. The hospital staff was amazed and did every test to verify what had happened. She was discharged the next day. She went on to live another year and became a Christian... that's right, she wasn't a Christian before that, and lived another year. Now, I have asked my girlfriend to get her medical record from the hospital and she said she would try. Would that be proof enough?

 

[afr0byte]

I never asked you to just believe me. I have been encouraging you to ask "God, if you are real, please show yourself to me". It's that simple. If you are not willing to do a simple thing like that, I am sure God will not answer you. The only reason I used the word arrogant is actually because you used it on me first. You called my God arrogant because He dared say that He is God and that His wisdom is above the worlds/ mans wisdom. Well, it's not arrogant if it's true. I believe it to be true. I have seen it, so I know it to be true, but I encourage you to do your own search for the truth in humility rather than in pride. Saying you aren't demanding anything of God and saying you need "proof" is contradictive. My girlfriends mother was dying. She had gone into a hospital and contracted 3 forms of anti- biotic resistant bacteria. She was bleeding out and wasn't expected to live through the night. Her eyes had turned a cloudy gray. Her eyes closed and she got the "death rattle" in her breathing and she flat lined. God told my girlfriend to speak over her (I can't remember what her exact words were) and she came back to full life. Her eyes had turned a beautiful blue. She spoke of two angels that told her to return to her body. God told my girlfriend that her mother would live another year. The hospital staff was amazed and did every test to verify what had happened. She was discharged the next day. She went on to live another year and became a Christian... that's right, she wasn't a Christian before that, and lived another year. Now, I have asked my girlfriend to get her medical record from the hospital and she said she would try. Would that be proof enough?

I just asked, out loud, for God to show himself. He didn't. I'd be open to meeting him if he actually existed. Apparently he doesn't or he likes to ignore me. And, no what I'm saying isn't contraindicative. I need proof in the sense that if someone expected me to believe in a god I'd ask them to show me some proof. I'm not demanding any god show me that proof. I figure if he wants to he will, if he really wants me to be "saved." Besides, if God is the heavenly father than theoretically he should be used to his kids asking him for things. It's part of being a parent.

As far as the medical record. Well, you can get it if you want. I'd be curious to see how you can prove that it was your "speaking over her" that caused the recovery. Lots of people pray for their loved ones, yet those loved ones still die. Plus, I'm sure others have had "miraculous" recoveries despite not having someone speak over them.

 

[Tetelestai]

I just asked, out loud, for God to show himself. He didn't. I'd be open to meeting him if he actually existed. Apparently he doesn't or he likes to ignore me. And, no what I'm saying isn't contraindicative. I need proof in the sense that if someone expected me to believe in a god I'd ask them to show me some proof. I'm not demanding any god show me that proof. I figure if he wants to he will, if he really wants me to be "saved." Besides, if God is the heavenly father than theoretically he should be used to his kids asking him for things. It's part of being a parent.

As far as the medical record. Well, you can get it if you want. I'd be curious to see how you can prove that it was your "speaking over her" that caused the recovery. Lots of people pray for their loved ones, yet those loved ones still die. Plus, I'm sure others have had "miraculous" recoveries despite not having someone speak over them.

You see, even if the Doctors, nurses and the testimony of those there were given to you, that's still not proof enough. Your heart is plainly just hard. I can get that medical record, I just don't see the point in getting it to you for you to just dismiss it as a medical anomaly or something. This is an actual documented miracle and you're still trying to explain it away. I'll keep praying for you, but I don't see the purpose of continuing this conversation right now. I actually think you don't want to actually meet Him. Asking for one moment usually doesn't happen. Again, I sought the Lord for over two years before He revealed Himself. Sometimes it's quicker than that, but not always. He knows your heart, He knows if you really want this.