"Is Patriotism a virtue?" (1 Viewer)

[Tigerace117]

Actually, a fairly advanced society simply died between first and second contact of European diseases.

And you are applying a European standard of possession to groups who approached the matter differently.

They certainly had "territory" the claimed and defended from each other.

There wasn't anybody to hand out title, so that the recipients could extract rents.

Maybe that was a good thing.

Yep, disease sucks.

The fact remains that more powerful tribes would kick around less powerful tribes all the time. Why should I get upset when a more powerful force--- a bigger fish--- comes around to do it to the bigger tribes?

 

[What if...?]

Immigration? So that's what we're calling one tribe throwing another off the land the second tribe resides on, and killing many of the second tribe's warriors in the process?

That wasn't the general model.

Most native American "warfare" was token.

Can't remember the term right now but it boiled down to "we are strong too. Don't **** with us".

Scrapping without many deaths compared to the European style.

 

[What if...?]

Yep, disease sucks.

The fact remains that more powerful tribes would kick around less powerful tribes all the time. Why should I get upset when a more powerful force--- a bigger fish--- comes around to do it to the bigger tribes?

You would be mad if I did it to you, though.

 

[Tigerace117]

That wasn't the general model.

Most native American "warfare" was token.

Can't remember the term right now but it boiled down to "we are strong too. Don't **** with us".

Scrapping without many deaths compared to the European style.

Native Americans in North America didn't have the manpower to raise huge armies or engage in all out brawls. Doesn't mean they didn't act with just as much savagery.

 

[Tigerace117]

You would be mad if I did it to you, though.

So what? Feelings are irrelevant. What goes around has a nasty habit of coming back around, as the bigger tribes ended up learning to their misfortune.

 

[Verax]

Immigration? So that's what we're calling one tribe throwing another off the land the second tribe resides on, and killing many of the second tribe's warriors in the process?

No. The argument started here.

Unless you're a Native American, you have zero standing to complain about immigrants.

Illegal aliens aren't immigrants.

Were the pilgrims on a work visa?

 

[What if...?]

Native Americans in North America didn't have the manpower to raise huge armies or engage in all out brawls. Doesn't mean they didn't act with just as much savagery.

Anthropologically, hunter gatherers didn't engage in "warfare" like we think of.

That was a product of the sedentary lifestyle and food storage.

Which mad "war" possible.

Can't do "war" when you gotta stop to hunt.

 

[Tigerace117]

Anthropologically, hunter gatherers didn't engage in "warfare" like we think of.

That was a product of the sedentary lifestyle and food storage.

Which mad "war" possible.

Can't do "war" when you gotta stop to hunt.

They obviously didn't have huge, European style industrialized warfare, but they still had warfare. And brutal warfare at that

 

[Phys251]

Ehhh....

There are cities and towns that are zoning out low income people by the use of the police and crime statistics as we speak. Or, they are constantly haranguing low income folks about curb appearance like here at the beach where they assess fines to folks who can't keep up in hopes that the owner can't pay the fines. The city will continue assessing the fines until the owner breaks and gives up the property. Virginia Beach (where I live) has been taken to the supreme court for its gentrification & and eminent domain practices a few times. People today are still being moved by the gun if they don't follow the courts decisions. I worked with a very large real estate firm from 2010-1215 and saw first hand what was happening. I was the guy there with the deputy to evict and rekey. Some of these properties were turned over to very large developers with no bids to the public? They never made it over to the MLS by a property asset manager before they were snatched up. They were settled by the banks and local government by swaying asset managers.

Wow, I'm sure you have some stories to tell from watching the deputy serving eviction notices.

I don't mind the higher density developments brought by gentrification, but a major lapse in the plan is what to do with people who were there in the first place. They have to live somewhere--after all, the working poor are the people who tend to serve our food in fast-food restaurants, help us in stores, clean our floors, and the like.

 

[slick]

Unless you're a Native American, you have zero standing to complain about immigrants.

As flimsy an argument as could be put forth. It's what always has happened
when a more enlightened segment of men intrudes into an area occupied
sparsely by backward peoples. Afterall in 'Human Accomplishment'
from 800 BC to 1950: 97% of the most significant figures & 97% of the greatest
achievements in astronomy, biology, earth science, physics, mathematics,
medicine & technology came from Europe & North America, an astonishing record
for one civilization.

The British in Australia overwhelmed the indigenous aboriginies
The British in New Zealand overwhelmed the indigenous maories
The British in Canada & the USA overwhelmed the indigenous amerindians
The Spanish in Mexico & Central & South America overwhelmed the indigenous amerindians

Just five examples of probably 50 similar events, it's just the nature of things.

Nothing to be ashamed of yet SJW among the educators approve of
'schools being converted into madresses of modernity & history is taught as a series
of crime against people of color & childeren are forbidden to invoke the faith of our fathers.'

 

[Phys251]

As flimsy an argument as could be put forth. It's what always has happened
when a more enlightened segment of men intrudes into an area occupied
sparsely by backward peoples. Afterall in 'Human Accomplishment'
from 800 BC to 1950: 97% of the most significant figures & 97% of the greatest
achievements in astronomy, biology, earth science, physics, mathematics,
medicine & technology came from Europe & North America, an astonishing record
for one civilization.

The British in Australia overwhelmed the indigenous aboriginies
The British in New Zealand overwhelmed the indigenous maories
The British in Canada & the USA overwhelmed the indigenous amerindians
The Spanish in Mexico & Central & South America overwhelmed the indigenous amerindians

Just five examples of probably 50 similar events, it's just the nature of things.

Nothing to be ashamed of yet SJW among the educators approve of
'schools being converted into madresses of modernity & history is taught as a series
of crime against people of color & childeren are forbidden to invoke the faith of our fathers.'

Stop with the might-makes-right justification of racism. By your own reasoning, our own time is coming soon.

 

[cpwill]

The reason why I have the thread title in quotation is because the thread title is an article written by the Scottish philospher Alasdair macintyre titled Is patriotism a virtue?

Macintyre answers the question as a qualified yes and argues that patriotism can be a virtue if it it is practiced in a certain way.

The quote below is the relevant part of his essay



Do you agree with this interpretation of patriotism? Or do you value another interpretation?

https://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/dspace/bitstream/1808/12398/1/Is Patriotism a Virtue-1984.pdf

I am not certain how far down the road I am willing to follow this - as you present him, he seems to be conflating patriotism with nationalism.

I would argue patriotism, for the citizen of the United States, is dedication to our founding ideals; our creed. Nationalism is the submersion of your identity into the identity of an extended "people", generally genetically similar. There is some (narrow, qualified) room for that in the realm of "good", but it seems to easily enable the bad.

 

[cpwill]

We don't do parades down main street anymore because everyone is working.

That, too, seems to indicate a deficiency of patriotism; this time in those who run industry.

Blaming our ills on immigration, when immigration is what we're all about is kinda silly, don't ya think?

Immigration can be done well, or it can be done badly. We have done it badly.

 

[HK.227]

Do you agree with this interpretation of patriotism?

I don't disagree with the man, but I would put it much simpler. "Caring about the society in which you live is mostly a good thing."

 

[SeAnThOmAs]

Depends

 

[Nap]

I voted other because it is a double edged sword. Too far in either direction leads to rather disastrous consequences.

Humans are tribalistic and patriotism allows us to enlarge our social circles and look past various immutable characteristics and come together for a unified allegiance. Not having that common bond leads to other tribes forming independently and causes infighting. However, too much leads to fascistic regimes like Nazi Germany. Maintaining that balance is crucial for the stability and peace.

 

[DaveFagan]

The reason why I have the thread title in quotation is because the thread title is an article written by the Scottish philospher Alasdair macintyre titled Is patriotism a virtue?

Macintyre answers the question as a qualified yes and argues that patriotism can be a virtue if it it is practiced in a certain way.

The quote below is the relevant part of his essay



Do you agree with this interpretation of patriotism? Or do you value another interpretation?

https://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/dspace/bitstream/1808/12398/1/Is Patriotism a Virtue-1984.pdf

The quote is accurate. The context is not. How many USA citizens know of the Imperialistic endeavors of the USA. Patriotism is within our borders. Not Syria borders. Not Libya borders. Not Iraqi borders. Not Afghani borders. Not Yemen borders. Not Panamanian borders. Not Cuban borders. Not Mexican borders. Not Honduran borders. Not Ukrainian borders. Not Korean borders. etcetera. USA interests have become acquisition wars for resources to benefit USA Corporations. That would be Corporatism/Fascism. Still feeling patriot?????
/

 

[DaveFagan]

The reason why I have the thread title in quotation is because the thread title is an article written by the Scottish philospher Alasdair macintyre titled Is patriotism a virtue?

Macintyre answers the question as a qualified yes and argues that patriotism can be a virtue if it it is practiced in a certain way.

The quote below is the relevant part of his essay



Do you agree with this interpretation of patriotism? Or do you value another interpretation?

https://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/dspace/bitstream/1808/12398/1/Is Patriotism a Virtue-1984.pdf

The quote is accurate. The context is not. How many USA citizens know of the Imperialistic endeavors of the USA. Patriotism is within our borders. Not Syria borders. Not Libya borders. Not Iraqi borders. Not Afghani borders. Not Yemen borders. Not Panamanian borders. Not Cuban borders. Not Mexican borders. Not Honduran borders. Not Ukrainian borders. Not Korean borders. etcetera. USA interests have become acquisition wars for resources to benefit USA Corporations. That would be Corporatism/Fascism. Still feeling patriotic?????
/

 

[Tangmo]

The quote is accurate. The context is not. How many USA citizens know of the Imperialistic endeavors of the USA. Patriotism is within our borders. Not Syria borders. Not Libya borders. Not Iraqi borders. Not Afghani borders. Not Yemen borders. Not Panamanian borders. Not Cuban borders. Not Mexican borders. Not Honduran borders. Not Ukrainian borders. Not Korean borders. etcetera. USA interests have become acquisition wars for resources to benefit USA Corporations. That would be Corporatism/Fascism. Still feeling patriotic?????
/

Virtually all of the operations were international coalitions that were voluntary. Americans don't get too traditionally (rah rah) patriotic about international coalitions. Americans focus attention instead on our troops, diplomats and vital technicalities such as the power of Potus to initiate or participate in the mix. We're rather low key about it. USA uses its soft power also which fascism does not have.

USA is making reparations of various kind in Iraq, however, we are limited by the Iraqi governments in what we can do and are permitted to do. It was China who won the war in Iraq given Beijing is drilling oil from Baghdad to Basra to the SA border then shipping it out to the CCP -- while being ignored by the warring tribes and groups.

You omitted Vietnam. USA received many refugees, there were intermarriages and America reestablished diplomatic relations soon afterward. Now USA and Vietnam are strategic partners in the region to include stockpiling military supplies and equipment and access to the reconfigured base at Camranh Bay which will receive a visit by a USN aircraft carrier this year.

All of the above are consistent with the quote presented by the OP. Your post is not.

 

[Kal'Stang]

Moderator's Warning:

Necro'd thread closed.