Is more stringent gun control inevitable?[W:1622]

[haymarket]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

I am merely asking you to tell us why you are opposed to civilians owning some guns that civilian law enforcement uses for self defense against criminals in an urban environment-the same environment facing the same criminals cops face

There are several plausible reasons

1) at a certain point, a citizen whom is trusted to own some firearms, cannot be trusted to own other firearms

2) citizens who don't work for the government are not going to face criminals as well armed or dangerous than the ones civilian cops face


3) civilians who are not cops are far more competent shooters than cops and thus can get by with lower magazine capacity weapons or lower rates of fire

or

4) the lives of civilians who don't work for the government are not as valuable as the lives of civilian law enforcement


I cannot think of any other reason to deny someone like me or you or any other poster with a clean record the ability to own what our glorious leaders have deemed the MOST APPROPRIATE self defense firearms

What part of this seems to befuddle and confuse you: you are not a police officer so you do not have any claim upon the tools of the trade used by police officers in the carrying out of their job.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

I think you are framing the issue incorrectly. The issue is why should honest citizens be denied the ability to buy and possess the weapons that our government leaders have decreed the MOST SUITABLE for self defense in urban environments against urban civilian criminals

can you come up with a good argument why civilians who are NOT civilian law enforcement officers should not be able to own the very best self defensive tools? this is not a constitutional issue but why should there be a handicapping of honest citizens whom you presumably believe should be allowed to own SOME types of Firearms?

It is you who are not framing the issue honestly. I merely am telling you like it is.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

What part of this seems to befuddle and confuse you: you are not a police officer so you do not have any claim upon the tools of the trade used by police officers in the carrying out of their job.

that's not the issue. IN a free society I don't have to justify why I should have something. the duty is on those who disagree to tell us WHY we should not have these things

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

It is you who are not framing the issue honestly. I merely am telling you like it is.

I have yet to see a good reason for denying honest citizens the best tools for self defense

IN a free society, the burden is on those who want to restrict what free citizens can own to justify the restrictions. Merely saying "you don't need it" or the "cops need it" doesn't work in a free society

 

[haymarket]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

that's not the issue. IN a free society I don't have to justify why I should have something. the duty is on those who disagree to tell us WHY we should not have these things

You have no right to have everything you want. That is a lesson in life that some learn early and some learn late and some never seem to learn at all.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

I have yet to see a good reason for denying honest citizens the best tools for self defense

IN a free society, the burden is on those who want to restrict what free citizens can own to justify the restrictions. Merely saying "you don't need it" or the "cops need it" doesn't work in a free society

Actually, it works extremely well since we are talking about rights and you have no right to any weapon you set your sights on.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

You have no right to have everything you want. That is a lesson in life that some learn early and some learn late and some never seem to learn at all.

why not? merely saying that is not sufficient in a free society

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

Actually, it works extremely well since we are talking about rights and you have no right to any weapon you set your sights on.

why not-what is the justification? given civilian cops have it, that alone proves there is a legitimate reason for others to have it

 

[justabubba]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

why not-what is the justification? given civilian cops have it, that alone proves there is a legitimate reason for others to have it

as a self professed 'expert witness', you should be acquainted with the provisions of heller

 

[haymarket]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

why not? merely saying that is not sufficient in a free society

We are talking about what rights one has. Do not confuse that with anything else.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

why not-what is the justification? given civilian cops have it, that alone proves there is a legitimate reason for others to have it

As you know, cops do NOT have weapons because of any rights under the Second Amendment. So it has absolutely NOTHING to do with you as a non cop and what rights you have under the Second Amendment.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

We are talking about what rights one has. Do not confuse that with anything else.

I merely want you to articulate why you believe honest citizens should not be able to own the same defensive firearms civilian police have

and I set forth the plausible reasons one could use to say so

nothing more nothing less

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

As you know, cops do NOT have weapons because of any rights under the Second Amendment. So it has absolutely NOTHING to do with you as a non cop and what rights you have under the Second Amendment.

I am not saying its a second amendment issue

I want to know why honest civilians should not be able to own the same defensive weapons that civilian police use

I don't think its a tough question

 

[haymarket]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

as a self professed 'expert witness', you should be acquainted with the provisions of heller

And Heller says NOTHING about police weapons being the standard for common use. So for anyone attempt to use Heller and then advance that argument is not at all intellectually honest nor historically accurate nor judicially correct.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

I am not saying its a second amendment issue

I want to know why honest civilians should not be able to own the same defensive weapons that civilian police use

I don't think its a tough question

Because you do not do the job that cops do requiring you to use their tools of the trade. And you have no right to them.

You can ask this a thousand times in a hundred different threads Turtle and the answer will always be the same just as it is in this post.

You do NOT have a right to have anything you want. There is nothing in the Constitution which says you do.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

as a self professed 'expert witness', you should be acquainted with the provisions of heller

can you argue that commonly issued police weapons are

1) uncommon

2) unusually dangerous

if not then Under Heller, they are clearly protected

but lets not discuss the constitution and how the courts should rule

I just want someone who DOES NOT WANT HONEST civilians (who are not cops) owning the same guns as police to tell us why

and if you concede that honest civilians should be able to own SOME GUNS or even some weapons cops use (like GLOCK Pistols or both action "sniper rifles"), tell us why you are opposed to honest civilians owning some of the other defensive firearms civilian police are issued for self defense against criminals in a civilian environment

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

As you know, cops do NOT have weapons because of any rights under the Second Amendment. So it has absolutely NOTHING to do with you as a non cop and what rights you have under the Second Amendment.

I have asked you several times why non LEO civilians should be banned from owning the same self defensive weapons cops have. I have not asked about the Constitution but rather what is the justification for banning honest civilians from being able to own all the weapons civilian police agencies use for self defense

 

[haymarket]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

I have asked you several times why non LEO civilians should be banned from owning the same self defensive weapons cops have. I have not asked about the Constitution but rather what is the justification for banning honest civilians from being able to own all the weapons civilian police agencies use for self defense

QUESTION: Why can't you have a cops weapons?

ANSWER: Because you are not a cop.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

QUESTION: Why can't you have a cops weapons?

ANSWER: Because you are not a cop.

that really is not a convincing argument. Is there anything that would actually convince someone sitting on the sideline that honest citizens can be trusted with some cop weapons (like the GLOCK 17 which is the most popular LEO pistol in the USA and clearly protected by Heller) but not say an AR 15 carbine or a M4 carbine

 

[justabubba]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

QUESTION: Why can't you have a cops weapons?

ANSWER: Because you are not a cop.

just so long as he keeps his bullet in his shirt pocket

 

[haymarket]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

that really is not a convincing argument. Is there anything that would actually convince someone sitting on the sideline that honest citizens can be trusted with some cop weapons (like the GLOCK 17 which is the most popular LEO pistol in the USA and clearly protected by Heller) but not say an AR 15 carbine or a M4 carbine

Its an extremely convincing argument. Just go out and get some of those cop weapons that you are not suppose to legally have and then attempt to use them in public and lets see how convinced you will then be. I suspect the light will go on rather quickly.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

just so long as he keeps his bullet in his shirt pocket

Exactly!

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

Its an extremely convincing argument. Just go out and get some of those cop weapons that you are not suppose to legally have and then attempt to use them in public and lets see how convinced you will then be. I suspect the light will go on rather quickly.

that is not a convincing argument why there should be a division between what cop weapons honest civilians can own and which ones they cannot. and the failure to actually set forth a reason suggests that there is none.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

that is not a convincing argument why there should be a division between what cop weapons honest civilians can own and which ones they cannot. and the failure to actually set forth a reason suggests that there is none.

QUESTION: Why can't I have a cops weapons?

ANSWER: Because you are not a cop.

If you are not convinced by both reality as well as legality- so be it. That is fine with me and bothers me not in the least. You can believe what you want to believe in. Belief is something people believe in because they want to believe it. It has precious little to do with anything else.

 

[justabubba]

Re: Is more stringent gun control inevitable?

QUESTION: Why can't I have a cops weapons?

ANSWER: Because you are not a cop.

If you are not convinced by both reality as well as legality- so be it. That is fine with me and bothers me not in the least. You can believe what you want to believe in. Belief is something people believe in because they want to believe it. It has precious little to do with anything else.

under heller that is dispositive
only wish we had an attorney around here who was able to speak to that reality