Is meat-eating worse than anti-vaxxing?

[Mithrae]

I don't even care if by my way of eating it kills the entire planet and we ALL die in the process.

Sure, I'm not surprised. However this thread was intended for people who actually do have a moral compass (hence it being a given that anti-vaxxing is indeed a bad thing); I just figured I'd address the claim that humans are somehow "supposed to" eat meat since it's one of the more common rationalizations we make on the subject. We're supposed to eat meat in pretty much the same way we're supposed to run around naked crapping ourselves Some habits are just a little harder to kick than others, as I can personally attest in at least one of those cases.

Again, the thread topic is which choice has a higher toll in human lives - meat-eating or anti-vaxxing - not the rationalizations for either of those decisions unless they directly bear on that question of their consequences.

 

[Court Jester]

Sure, I'm not surprised. However this thread was intended for people who actually do have a moral compass (hence it being a given that anti-vaxxing is indeed a bad thing); I just figured I'd address the claim that humans are somehow "supposed to" eat meat since it's one of the more common rationalizations we make on the subject. We're supposed to eat meat in pretty much the same way we're supposed to run around naked crapping ourselves Some habits are just a little harder to kick than others.

Carnivores and omnivores eating meat is somehow bothersome to you? Why?

This isn't a rationalization. We are DESIGNED to eat animal protein as well as plants.

 

[Mithrae]

We are DESIGNED to eat animal protein as well as plants.

Actually according to the most widely-used source material for that theology, that was not the original plan at all. And as an interesting coincidence, Yahweh only granted eventual permission for meat-eating to Noah's family after a massive depopulation event, which dovetails in with one of the problems here: There's simply too many people consuming too much meat to be sustainable in either ecological terms (for those who care about habitat loss and natural beauty) or in economic terms (for those who care about pricing the food out of the mouths of the planet's poorest).

 

[Threegoofs]

It takes about thirty times as much land to get a kilogram of protein from beef as it does from soya - somehow I don't think it would be much of a problem! Even omega 3 fatty acids can be acquired from algae rather than fish, if memory serves.

And while it's true that the world produces more food than is needed for human consumption, issues like spoilage during transport/storage take their toll on total produced and high prices can keep food - and in particular a varied, healthy diet - out of reach from the world's poorest. All else being equal a farmer isn't going to produce simple grains if he can get two or three times as much by producing beef, so our consumption of beef directly decreases the supply and increases the prices of staple crops (not least because a big fraction of grain production goes towards feeding livestock!). Similarly increasing global food production as much (or even a fraction as much) as would be possible without the inefficiencies of meat production would mean plenty more left over after the attrition of distribution and spoilage.

But credit to you for being pretty much the only person to (kind of) address the issue of how many people die as a consequence of meat-eating versus anti-vaxxing

Again, the rate limiting step in malnutrition isn’t that we don’t produce enough food.

The US has a ridiculous corn snd soybean surplus every year, with so much corn that we divert 40% to ethanol production for gasoline and STILL have a year’s worth of surplus in grain bins.

Antivaxxers are bad in terms of COVID, but that will dwarf their impact if they have one on polio, mumps, measles, etc.

 

[Antiwar]

... a massive depopulation event, which dovetails in with one of the problems here: There's simply too many people consuming too much meat to be sustainable in either ecological terms (for those who care about habitat loss and natural beauty) or in economic terms (for those who care about pricing the food out of the mouths of the planet's poorest).

You seem to really be understating our massive ecological problems.

 

[AGENT J]

Okay, could you show your reasoning?

yes its easy because everything you just said about meat is meaningless to me and NOT a fact. All meat is not produced, killed acquired etc the same way and for many people they arent directly involved and its not an INDIVIDUAL act.

If you would like to attack bad things about parts of the meat industry which is a global industry made up of millions that's pretty easy to do, have at it

but trying to equate that with an individual not vaxxing or spreading anti vax information vs an individual eating meat is bat shit insane . . its not a sound logical honest "premise" in anyway

 

[armycowboy]

I eat very little red meat and pork, but that's more for health reasons than anything. I do eat a lot of grilled chicken breast, white meat turkey and fish.

 

[Court Jester]

Actually according to the most widely-used source material for that theology, that was not the original plan at all. And as an interesting coincidence, Yahweh only granted eventual permission for meat-eating to Noah's family after a massive depopulation event, which dovetails in with one of the problems here: There's simply too many people consuming too much meat to be sustainable in either ecological terms (for those who care about habitat loss and natural beauty) or in economic terms (for those who care about pricing the food out of the mouths of the planet's poorest).

Well..... when I said we were "designed to eat animal protein" I was speaking about evolutionary biology. But if you want to shift gears and debate this from an intelligent design perspective, specifically Judaeo-Christian beliefs then 'I'm your Huckleberry'.

When Adam and Eve were created they were created a specific way, which meant they never got sick, never died, did not need to toil in fields to grow their food, or to hunt of fish. Everything they needed was provided for them, except for one thing which was prohibited, and they screwed that up. After 'the fall" they were CHANGED. Now they did have to toil in the fields for food, they needed to make shelter, Eve would bear children in pain, and ALL of them would NOW die. That means they were different than originally designed does it not?

After the fall man needed to sustain himself. He therefore ate animals as well as plants. At least that IS the way that story goes for those who believe that. Which always made me wonder if Adam was born with canine teeth (aka: cuspids / eye teeth)?

 

[Razoo]

A meat eater is unlikely to cause my family lasting damage just by coughing in my direction. An anti-vaxer is more likely to do that.

Standing Ovation .......

What I discovered meat is not a necessary item in the diet however fruits and vegetables are. Many other sources of protein are available.

• eggs
• dairy products – milk, yoghurt (especially Greek yoghurt), cheese (especially cottage cheese)
• nuts (including nut pastes) and seeds – almonds, pine nuts, walnuts, macadamias, hazelnuts, cashews, pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds, sunflower seeds
• legumes and beans – all beans, lentils, chickpeas, split peas, tofu.

Some grain and cereal-based products are also sources of protein, but are generally not as high in protein

Many decades ago I gave up meat and did not look back. However I still do exercise and sleep.

 

[Threegoofs]

Well..... when I said we were "designed to eat animal protein" I was speaking about evolutionary biology. But if you want to shift gears and debate this from an intelligent design perspective, specifically Judaeo-Christian beliefs then 'I'm your Huckleberry'.

When Adam and Eve were created they were created a specific way, which meant they never got sick, never died, did not need to toil in fields to grow their food, or to hunt of fish. Everything they needed was provided for them, except for one thing which was prohibited, and they screwed that up. After 'the fall" they were CHANGED. Now they did have to toil in the fields for food, they needed to make shelter, Eve would bear children in pain, and ALL of them would NOW die. That means they were different than originally designed does it not?

After the fall man needed to sustain himself. He therefore ate animals as well as plants. At least that IS the way that story goes for those who believe that. Which always made me wonder if Adam was born with canine teeth (aka: cuspids / eye teeth)?

Always made you wonder?

What a waste of time.

 

[Helix]

Standing Ovation .......

What I discovered meat is not a necessary item in the diet however fruits and vegetables are. Many other sources of protein are available.

• eggs
• dairy products – milk, yoghurt (especially Greek yoghurt), cheese (especially cottage cheese)
• nuts (including nut pastes) and seeds – almonds, pine nuts, walnuts, macadamias, hazelnuts, cashews, pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds, sunflower seeds
• legumes and beans – all beans, lentils, chickpeas, split peas, tofu.

Some grain and cereal-based products are also sources of protein, but are generally not as high in protein

Many decades ago I gave up meat and did not look back. However I still do exercise and sleep.

I made it three years as a vegetarian. Then COVID hit, and the demands on me at work increased significantly. I pulled more all nighters in months than i did in college and grad school combined. I started getting sick from it, and i needed energy that i wasn't getting from my current diet. I went back to fish first, then meat. It either helped or i thought that it did. I probably could have gotten similar results from going protein heavy on the vegetarian side, but i don't like beans and that sort of thing enough. It's not as bad now and i have more help, so i could probably go back to vegetarianism when i want to. Currently, it's a convenience thing, as my immediate family eats meat.

 

[Mithrae]

A meat eater is unlikely to cause my family lasting damage just by coughing in my direction. An anti-vaxer is more likely to do that.

I missed this earlier (thankyou Razoo) but I suppose that's an important difference too. The people who suffer or die as a predictable consequence of anti-vaxxing are more up close and personal, whereas the people who suffer and die as a predictable consequence of wasteful dietary habits are... over there somewhere. Trying to be concerned about people starving on the opposite side of the world is a more abstract kind of issue.

yes its easy because everything you just said about meat is meaningless to me and NOT a fact. All meat is not produced, killed acquired etc the same way and for many people they arent directly involved and its not an INDIVIDUAL act.

If you would like to attack bad things about parts of the meat industry which is a global industry made up of millions that's pretty easy to do, have at it

but trying to equate that with an individual not vaxxing or spreading anti vax information vs an individual eating meat is bat shit insane . . its not a sound logical honest "premise" in anyway

Surely quite the opposite is the case, if anything? Not being vaccinated is strictly passive behaviour, while making wasteful dietary choices (ie. meat, especially beef) is active behaviour.

You're right that not all meat-eating shares all the same problems; for example here in Australia a case might be made that (at present) eating kangaroo and deer from particular suppliers is an ethical choice since they are considered pests with population numbers subject to culling in some regions, not affecting (or if anything alleviating) the issues of global supply and food prices. The removal of industrial farming from the equation also removes most of the issues of ethical treatment toward the animals themselves, no incarceration or forced breeding, just a hopefully quick death even better than natural predation. Of course if large numbers of consumers started eating them that would quickly change.

As I noted in the OP I'm generalizing quite a bit, talking about averages particularly in high meat-consumption areas like the EU, Australia and USA.

 

[AGENT J]

Surely quite the opposite is the case, if anything? Not being vaccinated is strictly passive behaviour, while making wasteful dietary choices (ie. meat, especially beef) is active behaviour.

You're right that not all meat-eating shares all the same problems; for example here in Australia a case might be made that (at present) eating kangaroo and deer from particular suppliers is an ethical choice since they are considered pests with population numbers subject to culling in some regions, not affecting (or if anything alleviating) the issues of global supply and food prices. The removal of industrial farming from the equation also removes most of the issues of ethical treatment toward the animals themselves, no incarceration or forced breeding, just a hopefully quick death even better than natural predation. Of course if large numbers of consumers started eating them that would quickly change.

As I noted in the OP I'm generalizing quite a bit, talking about averages particularly in high meat-consumption areas like the EU, Australia and USA.

generalizing quite a bit . . is a vast dishonest understatment
like i said, equating an individual to not taking a vaccine to the meat industry is nonsensical dishonest lunacy . . they are not analogous

the meat industry most certainly can be attacked, i got not problem there, its just its own issue that has nothing to do with being vaccinated or not

 

[Argent]

People who live in urban places aren't growing their own fruits and vegetables either, so your point is basically worthless

Urban community gardens have increased 22% over last year. There are approx. 29,000 in just the 100 largest US cities.

There is more scientific evidence that we don't need meat than there is that we do.

I don't care what you eat but you should be more honest, or accurate, in your debate about the topic.

 

[Mithrae]

Again, the rate limiting step in malnutrition isn’t that we don’t produce enough food.

Most of the major causes of global hunger - poverty/prices, food shortages, food wastage, drought/famine/climate change, lack of diversity in available foods - would be alleviated if not outright solved if global food production were increased 10 or 30 or 50% by growing crops to feed people instead of cows. Roughly one in nine or ~11% of the world population are under-nourished, and the figures used in the OP assume only a third of the deaths from hunger can be attributed to meat consumption; that is, my numbers suggest that increasing potential global food production by 50+% would solve the hunger issue for less than 4% of the world's population. If anything, that seems like a ridiculous understatement!

A direct comparison for your argument would be that the solution to Covid isn't wearing masks or getting vaccinated; we could solve the problem through a weeklong national lockdown followed by mandatory daily testing of all people and forced quarantining in government facilities of those who test positive and their associates. That would be a national solution, but it's obviously not the simplest and certainly not the lowest-impact way of addressing it.

Similarly, in theory global hunger could be solved without changing current dietary habits in wealthy countries* by changing many other different variables (ie. ending wastage associated with market-based distribution of food, eliminating global poverty, improving agricultural, storage and transportation technology and infrastructure in underdeveloped countries...), and indeed many of those are things which should be done, but the far more obvious and simpler first step is to stop wasting food through inefficient production and consumption habits. *And of course, even if all those things were done we'd still need to change the trend of increasing meat consumption with increasing wealth, essentially telling the rest of the world that it's okay for Americans to chow down 150% of their bodyweight in meat each year but no-one else emerging from poverty can do the same or there won't be enough room on the planet for all the cows!

 

[Court Jester]

Urban community gardens have increased 22% over last year. There are approx. 29,000 in just the 100 largest US cities.

So typical of the way liberals think. Do you really believe that "urban community gardens" are capable of feeding the world?
All you environmentalists will end up doing by forcing cut backs in ranching and commercial farming is cause many people
in the 3rd world to starve to death.

There is more scientific evidence that we don't need meat than there is that we do.

But what if we WANT meat? Does that not matter to you?

I don't care what you eat but you should be more honest, or accurate, in your debate about the topic.

I think you do care what people eat, or you wouldn't have said what you said.

 

[Mithrae]

You seem to really be understating our massive ecological problems.

True, but the most direct comparison between anti-vaxxing and meat-eating is in terms of human lives lost. I don't want to neglect the fact of ecological destruction caused by meat production, both because it's important in its own right and because it supplements the uncertainties in estimating the toll in human lives alone (though really, the far greater uncertainties in my OP estimates are in the toll from anti-vaxxing).

generalizing quite a bit . . is a vast dishonest understatment
like i said, equating an individual to not taking a vaccine to the meat industry is nonsensical dishonest lunacy . . they are not analogous

the meat industry most certainly can be attacked, i got not problem there, its just its own issue that has nothing to do with being vaccinated or not

Yes, they are obviously separate issues, but can be more or less directly compared in terms of the toll in human lives which result as a predictable consequence of passive non-vaccination or active meat consumption per million Americans. My main question (which no-one has actually answered) is whether anyone knows of better methods or more reliable sources for making that estimate than those outlined in the OP... a secondary question being that given the best estimate/s available suggest meat-eating is comparable in consequence to anti-vaxxing (even ignoring the environmental issues and the ethical issues regarding treatment of animals themselves) why is there such a disproportionate stigma and social shaming around anti-vaxxing? Is it just tribalistic 'othering'? The point @Helix made that the consequences of Covid are more up close and personal is a good one to add to my initial hypothesis.

Well..... when I said we were "designed to eat animal protein" I was speaking about evolutionary biology.

Then the correct way of expressing it would be that within the past ~4% of our post-Jurassic evolutionary timeline, our previously non-carnivorous ancestors adapted to a partly carnivorous diet due to environmental circumstances... and obviously some much more recent ancestors and contemporaries have shown that we can quite readily adapt away from meat consumption too. Just as we've adapted away from running around naked crapping ourselves. (Actually there's a case to be made that climate permitting running around naked could be pretty awesome, but that's neither here nor there )

 

[AGENT J]

Yes, they are obviously separate issues, but can be more or less directly compared in terms of the toll in human lives which result as a predictable consequence of passive non-vaccination or active meat consumption per million Americans.

no . . . .
they cant, that's the most illogical and dishonest part that makes them not anologus its just silly to compare them in anyway because of how vastly different they are

 

[Mithrae]

no . . . .
they cant, that's the most illogical and dishonest part that makes them not anologus its just silly to compare them in anyway because of how vastly different they are

Are you claiming that global hunger is not exacerbated by wasteful food production and consumption habits?
Or that the deaths which predictably result from those wasteful habits are somehow fundamentally 'different' and not comparable to the deaths which predictably result from non-vaccination?

 

[AGENT J]

Are you claiming that global hunger is not exacerbated by wasteful food production and consumption habits?
Or that the deaths which predictably result from those wasteful habits are somehow fundamentally 'different' and not comparable to the deaths which predictably result from non-vaccination?

heres what was said

they cant, that's the most illogical and dishonest part that makes them not analogous its just silly to compare them in anyway because of how vastly different they are

 

[Argent]

Do you really believe that "urban community gardens" are capable of feeding the world?

I didn't say that and you know it. I responded to your inaccurate statement that people in urban areas aren't growing their fruits and veggies. Quite a few are and more people are starting to do it because they find it fun and relaxing as well as tasty.

I think you do care what people eat, or you wouldn't have said what you said.

You're wrong and it's ok to be wrong. I don't care what you eat. I do care if you are not presenting accurate info in a debate.

 

[Schism]

I'm surprised the hospital allowed Hillary to visit that dirty, infected hound dog.

oops, wrong thread.

 

[Razoo]

It was a bit surprising that I enjoyed no more meat due to the cost then the time to prepare suddenly became a factor. Immediately my choice became long grain brown rice and steamed veggies. Seasoned
to taste introduced a new product aka Tamari. Long grain brown rice became my staple for quite a long
while. Of late an avocado a day has been a tasty delight often with a touch of Salsa.

When I discovered meat is not a necessary item in the diet whereas fruits and vegetables are life got better.

Many other sources of protein are available:

• eggs
• dairy products – milk, yoghurt (especially Greek yoghurt), cheese (especially cottage cheese)
• nuts (including nut pastes) and seeds – almonds, pine nuts, walnuts, macadamias, hazelnuts, cashews, pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds, sunflower seeds
• legumes and beans – all beans, lentils, chickpeas, split peas, tofu.

Some grain and cereal-based products are also sources of protein, but are generally not as high in protein

Many decades ago I gave up meat and did not look back. However I still do exercise and sleep.

 

[Threegoofs]

Most of the major causes of global hunger - poverty/prices, food shortages, food wastage, drought/famine/climate change, lack of diversity in available foods - would be alleviated if not outright solved if global food production were increased 10 or 30 or 50% by growing crops to feed people instead of cows. Roughly one in nine or ~11% of the world population are under-nourished, and the figures used in the OP assume only a third of the deaths from hunger can be attributed to meat consumption; that is, my numbers suggest that increasing potential global food production by 50+% would solve the hunger issue for less than 4% of the world's population. If anything, that seems like a ridiculous understatement!

A direct comparison for your argument would be that the solution to Covid isn't wearing masks or getting vaccinated; we could solve the problem through a weeklong national lockdown followed by mandatory daily testing of all people and forced quarantining in government facilities of those who test positive and their associates. That would be a national solution, but it's obviously not the simplest and certainly not the lowest-impact way of addressing it.

Similarly, in theory global hunger could be solved without changing current dietary habits in wealthy countries* by changing many other different variables (ie. ending wastage associated with market-based distribution of food, eliminating global poverty, improving agricultural, storage and transportation technology and infrastructure in underdeveloped countries...), and indeed many of those are things which should be done, but the far more obvious and simpler first step is to stop wasting food through inefficient production and consumption habits. *And of course, even if all those things were done we'd still need to change the trend of increasing meat consumption with increasing wealth, essentially telling the rest of the world that it's okay for Americans to chow down 150% of their bodyweight in meat each year but no-one else emerging from poverty can do the same or there won't be enough room on the planet for all the cows!

Nope. We already have enough food. The US has something like 11 billion bushels of corn in storage and uses 5 billion per year, and I think there’s about a year of soybeans in storage too (amount of storage depends on prices). And yes, theres massive waste, especially when used as food and especially in the US - I think we waste about a third or more of all our food supplies in the US. And we do it because its so cheap and plentiful.

Food shortages in the developing world are almost always due to civil unrest, with poverty becoming a smaller issue every year. Eliminating meat would not change a thing in terms of nourishment - we are not going to suddenly switch all those cattle raising farms to corn farms, especially since existing corn farms on less productive land will probably disappear - because a big chunk of the grain we grow is for animals, and prices would plummet from a ridiculous oversupply.

This is sort of a Tim the Plumber stance youre taking here - one that I think you directly argued against before.

There are environmental problems with meat consumption for sure - but the ‘but we divert too much food/land to feed the animals and thats why people are starving’ is not a good argument.

 

[CaughtInThe]

Just get vaccinated. You guys are killing small businesses.