USViking
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The difference between partial differential equations and no partial differential equations is more than just one of infinite degree, it is also once of difference in kind, since no animal has any mathematical skill at all.The difference is just a difference in degree, and not in kind. There are examples of animals doing almost all of the same things that humans do.
No it is not possible, as closely as we have studied them.It is possible that the cetaceans may have an intellect as great as that of man, but, living in a different environment, they haven't developed the use of tools and fire as we have.
None of this suggests a need for me to reconsider anything. In fact, it consists of nothing other than more examples of what I termed our "infinite" "intellectual superiority".Easy, if you take a step back. Let me preface with this. Probably the biggest inventions of mankind were those that occurred early on. The discovery of how to utilize fire, the creation of simple machines (levers, pulleys, wheels, etc.) or the ability to grow our own food instead of hunting and gathering. These were momentousness advances for us not for the increased technological capabilities, but for ingenuity that it took for humans to create them. It requires an astounding grasp on the external world and an pretty deep understanding of cause and effect to make those happen. Our later inventions where a computer got smaller, a vaccination was discovered, or a space shuttle flew further weren't necessarily the most astounding inventions. We'd have gotten there with or without much innovation. The path had already been set.
Specifics, please. And I am going to hold you to the word "same".That said, what is remarkable about animals is that many of them demonstrate the same grasp that we have on the external world.
Don't be ridiculous. No other animal has the potential or capacity to look through a microscope with any appreciation of what they are seeing, even if they could figure out how to focus it. Then of course there is the problem of constructing the microscope, or construction any other scientific instrument.Whether they can peer through a microscope or not, it is pretty inconsequential. What they have is the potential or the capacity to do this, just like early Homo sapiens.
Specifics, please. And I am going to hold you to the phrase "not that far behind". Take your microscope example. Are there a few species which have built magnifying glasses that I haven't heard about, or something?Granted now that we're the prime species on Earth there probably won't be this stunning change of natural hierarchies. However it's no doubt that there are a few species that show complexities and intelligence that isn't that far behind us.
The difference between partial differential equations and no partial differential equations is more than just one of infinite degree, it is also once of difference in kind, since no animal has any mathematical skill at all.
No it is not possible, as closely as we have studied them.
If human standards for intelligence are applied to non-human animals, however, dolphins come very close to our own brain aptitude levels, suggests Emory University dolphin expert Lori Marino.
She's performed MRI scans of dolphin brains. The scans prove dolphin brains are:
big, relative to body size
intricate, with a neocortex "more highly convoluted than our own"
structured to allow for self-awareness and the processing of what Marino calls "complex emotions"
What about species like Homo neanderthalensis? Or Homo heidelbergensis?
Would it really be unfair of me to ask that we stick to literacy and numeracy?Are you sure?
Even applying human definitions of intelligence, the dolphins come out second. If you understand that there are different types of intelligence, even among humans, then it is quite possible that their intelligence is actually equal to ours.
Even if they're in second place (according to us) the difference is not all that great.
I have been seeing alot of stuff lately on elephants, dolphins etc that show compassion for other beings and seem to understand death at some level and mourn the passing of others. I always thought things like this is what separated man from animals but now I am beginning to wonder.
Would it really be unfair of me to ask that we stick to literacy and numeracy?
Have Ms Morino get back to us as soon as the first dolphin can spell "c-a-t" and can add 1+1. Coco the gorilla might be an example of rudimentary literacy among other species, except I do not think her abilities have been confirmed and replicated to the satisfaction of the scientific community. Also, whatever these species' literary and numeric accomplishments are (and there might be none), keep in mind that they were not developed autonomously, but were fully dependent on human initiative and instruction.
Intelligence can be measured in many ways. You don't get to redefine those ways to make a false point.
A crow has the reasoning ability of a seven-year-old child. Watch the vid. It's an education.
Crows are as intelligent as CHILDREN: Study reveals birds have same intelligence as a seven-year-old | Mail Online
Would it really be unfair of me to ask that we stick to literacy and numeracy?
Have Ms Morino get back to us as soon as the first dolphin can spell "c-a-t" and can add 1+1. Coco the gorilla might be an example of rudimentary literacy among other species, except I do not think her abilities have been confirmed and replicated to the satisfaction of the scientific community. Also, whatever these species' literary and numeric accomplishments are (and there might be none), keep in mind that they were not developed autonomously, but were fully dependent on human initiative and instruction.
All the talk of intelligence is irrelevant. "Animal" is a biological category. Biologically, we are animals.
For the second time:
(reply #12, this thread):
The primary difference between us and every other animal is our dependence on our intellect for survival and our obsession with tools. Those combined form a very potent survival combination of survival traits. If you examine almost everything we do or use it is essentially a tool of some sort. Laws are mental tools for maintaining order, language a tool for cooperation and transfer of information, nature itself is a tool. We as a species take tool use as compared to the rest of the animal kingdom to whole other levels, magnitudes above our closest competitors. A flexible agile mind combined with a tool obsession makes for a very potent combo.
Beyond a spiritual perspective, I'd see no reason to suppose that we're in any way 'special'. Merely different.I have been seeing alot of stuff lately on elephants, dolphins etc that show compassion for other beings and seem to understand death at some level and mourn the passing of others. I always thought things like this is what separated man from animals but now I am beginning to wonder.
I have been seeing alot of stuff lately on elephants, dolphins etc that show compassion for other beings and seem to understand death at some level and mourn the passing of others. I always thought things like this is what separated man from animals but now I am beginning to wonder.
"Redefining"? Focus on two of most vital categories of intelligence is "redefining"? I think not.Intelligence can be measured in many ways. You don't get to redefine those ways to make a false point.
A crow has the reasoning ability of a seven-year-old child. Watch the vid. It's an education.
Crows are as intelligent as CHILDREN: Study reveals birds have same intelligence as a seven-year-old | Mail Online
No, sorry, but the article does not come close to confirming that dolphins have any mathematical ability at all. It is also incoherently written, what with the "dolphins blowing multiple tiny bubbles around prey as they hunted" clearly implying that the prey was located prior to bubble generation, and other confused prose. (I am noticing more and more awful syntax and obvious mistakes in the written media these days. I guess they have fired all the copy editors in order to save money).Not according to Manc Skipper's post 27.
No one has taught dolphins math. They've figured it out on their own.
Google indicates that dolphins do have binocular vision, although that makes no difference to our argument: humans can learn how to spell and add even if they are blind.And expecting a creature without binocular vision, hands, or arms to read and write numeric symbols is really asking a lot.
I did read (and reply to) your whole post #13, which IMO serioulsy understates the contrast between human and other animal intelligence. However, I missed your post #14, which is much more reasonable, and which I mostly agree with.Try reading my whole post next time. For your edification.
OK.We are animals, and we are distant relatives of apes, monkeys, what have you.
Not OK. Our intelligence is in no sense a "defect"- not biologically speaking, and not colloquially speaking.We just lucked out to have a genetic defect, that we worked utilized extensively to our advantage.
OK.All the other animals in the kingdom have something besides brains to fall back on, tooth, claw, speed and brawn. We have none of those. We live and die by our intellect and our very real obsession with tools.
There may to be no limit to our ability to design different tools. If so that ability has a non-trivial infinite attribute. I do not believe the same can be said for any other member of the tree of life- all others' tool-designing abilities are finite. Infinity divided by any finite number = infinity.Our intellect is not infinitely greater, it is greater by orders of magnitude for certain uses, amongst those the development and use of tools.
I think of us more along the lines of people in white coats in laboratories than along the lines of a card sharp.Yes we are the apex of the food chain so to speak. We got that way because we are very very very good at improvising and adapting ourselves and the environment around us to stack the deck in our favor. We cheat and well.
No, sorry, but the article does not come close to confirming that dolphins have any mathematical ability at all. It is also incoherently written, what with the "dolphins blowing multiple tiny bubbles around prey as they hunted" clearly implying that the prey was located prior to bubble generation, and other confused prose. (I am noticing more and more awful syntax and obvious mistakes in the written media these days. I guess they have fired all the copy editors in order to save money).
Google indicates that dolphins do have binocular vision, although that makes no difference to our argument: humans can learn how to spell and add even if they are blind.
Got any links?There are lots of other studies indicating that dolphins have mathematical ability,
but I'm sure they must be similarly flawed as well.
I am aware of the fact that dolphins possess elaborate communication skills. Linguistic skills even remotely approaching those of human beings are another story. I might not hold out for a dolphin-novel the size of War and Peace, but I will hold out for for some form of fiction, among other things, before I consider dropping the word "infinite" from my argument.The ones showing that dolphins have developed languages and may have names for each other, are they also poorly written and ungrammatical?
Mark Twain said: "God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey".
Got any links?
I said the reporter's prose was flawed, not the study, which might or might not be. The sciences are rife with publication pressure, and confirmation bias is widespread, especially with trendy and politically correct topics, such as that there is nothing really so special about our status in the animal kingdom. Wouldn't it be adorable if Flipper was just as smart as us!
I am aware of the fact that dolphins possess elaborate communication skills. Linguistic skills even remotely approaching those of human beings are another story. I might not hold out for a dolphin-novel the size of War and Peace, but I will hold out for for some form of fiction, among other things, before I consider dropping the word "infinite" from my argument.
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