Morality Games
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Yes indeed, they do. That doesn't mean they want to turn back the clock or are opposed to worthwhile change, it means they don't move from things that demonstrably work to things that have not been demonstrated to work, just for the sake of change. It has to be earned.
And Europe isn't doing so hot economically, are they? That's because they're far left liberal fiscal systems are collapsing on them, just like ours are starting to.
The influence of men like the Kochs affects the lives of hundreds of millions of people in their country and billions more across the world, for decades and maybe even for centuries and thousands of years to come.
Jesus influenced billions. Aristotle influenced billions. Confucius influenced billions. Locke influenced billions. Marx influenced billions. If the ideas and messages put forth by the Kochs speak to people in such a way that their message actually influences them, then why on Earth should they be prohibited from reaching out to everyone who wants to listen to them?
I'm not against sharing ideas or free speech, but you can do that on YouTube for free.
I'm against special interests supporting the two-party system via their influence on the media (deciding debates)
and then buying congressmen in both parties like insurance packages, to make sure they get the regulations, trade deals, and tax exemptions they feel they deserve.
Without democracy, the common man lacks the ability to have a voice in human destiny.
No wonder you liberals are so screwed up, you have no idea what the opposition is all about. Nothing you've said above has anything to do with conservatism.
Yes indeed, they do. That doesn't mean they want to turn back the clock or are opposed to worthwhile change, it means they don't move from things that demonstrably work to things that have not been demonstrated to work, just for the sake of change. It has to be earned.....
Liberals used to be for "freedom" and "free expression", and against "big brother (gov)" during the "hippy Era", so they've definitely changed.
Why should I or the Kochs be restricted to getting our message out via Youtube when liberals can use the reach of NBC News, the New York Times and messages embedded within the context of Hollywood productions to get their message out? This creates a very unlevel playing field.
Like Candy Crowley?
Now you're talking about corruption. I doubt that you're going to see many defenders of corruption showing up.
Here's a problem - I'm actually scared of what the "common man" will do.
Although the modern political system in the US is divided into two broad groups, liberal and conservative, the US political system as a whole is based on the notion of liberalism. In other words, both liberals and conservatives in the US embrace, more or less, the principle that a person should be free to do as he likes with minimal constraint. The difference in the two groups is essentially where they like to draw the line. This is in contrast to systems that exist in places such as Saudi Arabia and certain areas in Afghanistan. In these types of very conservative societies there is little or no embrace of the principle that a person is free to do as he likes. Rather the principle is that the activities of individuals should be highly constrained.
When we examine the principle that the individual should be free to do as he chooses, we are immediately confronted with a paradox. What if the individual chooses to construct an environment that imposes restrictions on the behavior of others? Of course we say that the person has violated the principle that you can do as you like as long as you do not infringe upon the right to do the same. But isn't such an imposition itself a violation of the right of an individual to do as he chooses?
Consider for a minute how this is problematic. For the sake of discussion let's call the type of liberalism and conservatism that are practiced in the US as localized liberalism and localized conservatism respectively. Typically, localized liberalism seeks to impose laws that do things such as legalize abortions, and grant equal rights to gays and racial minorities. However, some practitioners of localized conservatism feel that their right to do as they choose are violated when, for example they are forced to serve racial minorities in their business establishments. Do they not have a point? Are not the localized liberals violating the principles of liberalism itself when they impose laws that force individuals to live in an environment that they find uncomfortable or repulsive? Of course you can say that no one is forcing them to live here, they can go somewhere else. But still why should they have to do this? Should not a true liberalism be broad enough to accommodate all? If not, is liberalism itself illiberal?
How let's step back and look at liberalism in a broader sense. Recently the Bush administration had a goal to try to impose a system of liberal values on the very conservative society that had been implemented by the Taliban in Afghanistan. However, many of the people there viewed this attempt as an effort to restrict them from living as they wanted to do. Do they not have a point? Is not this another instance in which liberal values themselves result in illiberalism?
What do you think? Is liberalism itself illiberal?
To be clear, I'm not trying to make a value judgement here as to what is right and what is wrong. I'm just asking the question. I think its rather interesting.
You should be scared of everyone who isn't
(1) lacking material self interest
(2) possessing great knowledge and wisdom allowing them to see thousands of years into the future -- abundant scientific, economic, historical, and philosophical knowledge
(3) motivated by concern for his country and the entire human race
having much political influence. But the common man -- the middle class -- usually keeps things down to earth. Their existence is too comfortable for them to act as radical reformers, they're used to working for everything they have, so they create a lot of wealth for society to share. They're educated enough to understand a threat to their society (internal or foreign), and they're invested enough that they will fight to defend it.
Excess poverty and excess wealth create a kind of spiritual twistedness, a perverse desperation for "more" than no amount of handouts or riches will ever really fulfill. It's almost always the very rich or the very poor who push "their rights" to dangerous extremes and wind up pitting various stretches of society against each other.
Aristotle made that observation of the states of Greece and their economic and political systems thousands of years ago. It was true of the Roman Empire and its true of countries today. When the middle class grows weak, society becomes less tethered and social and economic dysfunction becomes more acute.
His statement is completely consistent with the definitions of conservative and liberal and the actual tendencies in the USA's politics.
Conservatives don't move from things that demonstrably work for them and the people in power. (by definition and in reality) Slavery and racial discrimination are perfect examples, they benefited the elites and most people at the time, but were unjust. Liberals prioritize freedom, equality and justice for all and considered the inconvenience to the elites and other beneficiaries of eliminating those practices, even if they are the majority, to be an acceptable price for a just system. Similarly, foreign policies that unjustly harm people in other nations (i.e invading to secure oil supplies) but benefit the residents of the USA are not acceptable to principled* liberals.
* a category that excludes many, arguably most, politicians of any political persuasion.
Although I hear what you are saying, it's impossible to get around the fact that, in practical terms, it is a value judgement that imperfect people will make.
A little less hippy and a little more hip replacement. SSI instead of LSD.
Your question, as I understand it, is meaningless at best, disingenuous at worst. Can you please elaborate?
Right now both major groups are tribal over ideological. It's a huge contributor to our current political difficulties.
We are in a transitory strage where we just released the printing press 2.0 and look at what that thing did to existing political systems five nearly six hundred years ago. For example anabaptists and they chaos they unleashed.
Right now due to technological disruption and the lack of common assumptions that all members of society can share (because that died in the late 80s) we will stay in this tribal phase perhaps for a couple of generations. Eventually new assumptions will be made but probably not be anything we can currently predict
Many western assumptions about the do no harm principal (which later gave birth to the idea of natural rights) as being the basis for morality (which is unusual given how most societies develop) is being fundamentally questioned even though it is the catalyst for so much progress (as seen by western eyes, most of the world thinks OECD countries are insane hedonists) but will probably survive in altered forms as many of those assumptions about how human free will (and thus many of our philosophical foundations) works is not standing up to scientific scrutiny. But that's the reason the country deviated from its initial ideals anyway, they weren't realistic societal goals.
So yes we are illiberal and yet very liberal, just not in any pure ideological or philosophical sense.
I fail to understand what is meaningless about it. I explained what I meant in the original post. Basically the question is whether liberalism can accommodate a value system that in opposition to the values of liberalism. And if not, doesn't it's inability to accommodate such values place it in contradiction to the values of liberalism itself?
I don't know what else to say. Again, I'm not trying to make a value judgement on whether that is right or wrong, I was pondering the question earlier this morning and I thought I would find out what others had to say.
The same imperfect people need to realize when they've made poor, value based choices and rectify them. We need a system that is human centric and takes in the security of its people above the success of its business. Though they seem synonymous to some degree, it's possible to become too materialistic.
Though trying to manipulate a peoples thought processes, with excess rules and social control is utterly stupid.
Liberalism that we see in play in America today is quite far removed from its historical roots. Today it's really a religion for its adherents.
I agree with you there. The same can be said for conservatism.
If people feel they are unable to make value judgments on the society that they take a part in, you will immediately get disaffection and probably eventually a revolutionary attitude. People will never be happy with a code of conduct that they can't get emotionally involved in.
What constitutes Original Sin in conservatism? What constitutes redemption and salvation in conservatism? What constitutes holy war in conservatism? What constitutes penance?
What is the point you are trying to make?
Everything doesn't have to be a tit for tat situation. Liberalism is really taking on the trappings of a religious belief. Just because liberalism is transforming into a quasi-religion doesn't mean that conservatism has to nor that conservatism even has the foundational structures onto which religious beliefs can be mapped.
OK I got it. The original sin is blasphemy against the principle that black folks are trying to take white folks money. Redemption is to swear not to ever again blasphemy against the principle that black folks are trying to take white folks money. Holy war is to engage in telling others that it's not true that black folks are trying to take white folks money. Penance is to engage in preaching the gospel all over the world that black folks are trying to take white folks money. Salvation is the desired goal and bliss of taking everyone's money and trickling it back down to them.
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