Is Jesus Jehovah?

[The Baron]

Part I of IV​

First off, let me state that I wish to be very respectful with this thread. It is not my aim to disrespect any person or any person's deeply-held beliefs. But this is a debate site and we can't debate until we disagree, so...

One of our beloved members--per their beliefs--has questioned the deity of Christ.

That's cool. We're allowed to question everything about Him. But our questions must always be focused on trying to determine truth. In fact, I believe a very good argument can be made that one of the purposes of debate is to determine truth. And the truth is that after we ask all our questions and if we come to an incorrect understanding of who Christ really is...the consequences are both horrific and forever.

Point of fact, the most important question we will ever answer is, "who do you say that I am?"

And the best way to answer that question is through Scripture. And doing so is easy enough. However, when debating Jehovah Witness you have to remember that they have a
heavily edited--and edited incorrectly--version of the Scriptures called The New World Translation.

So, to keep things interesting, I'll prove the deity of Christ using The New World Translation only. I’ll pull the Scriptures I use from the JW Website.

As such, I will not be able to use all of the Scriptures that so clearly show the deity of Christ as The New World Translation has been so heavily “edited” to remove any reference to Christ’s deity.

And before I get started, please allow me to note for all those that may read this that our Jehovah Witness friends believe that Jesus is really the archangel Michael. I’m not clear as to why...

Perhaps if someone reading this is knowledgeable enough, they could share just a single scripture to show us all where Michael is called Christ?

Now, there are multiple scriptures to consider here but there are a couple of verses to share “right out the gate” to get us started...

(Editor’s Note: For ease of reading I will separate my comments regarding scripture in blue. I do not know the wisdom in this but my hope is that this will make what I’ve written a little easier for both you and your eyes to follow. Hope it helps.)

Isaiah 9: 6
For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. [emphasis mine].

Even The New World Translation recognizes that Christ is God.

Now let’s take a look at Revelation 1:8...

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.” [emphasis mine].

So, per The New World Translation, Jehovah is the “Alʹpha and the O·meʹga”, “the Almighty”.

Okay, so now let’s examine...

Revelation 22: 12-16
[Jesus Speaking] “‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to repay each one according to his work. I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Happy are those who wash their robes, so that they may have authority to go to the trees of life and that they may gain entrance into the city through its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and those who are sexually immoral and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices lying.’ “‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you about these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David and the bright morning star.’” [emphasis mine].

So in Revelation 1, God calls Himself the Alpha & the Omega.

And so does Jesus in chapter 22.

At this point, this should be "case closed". But we all know that ain’t gonna happen...so let’s keep going...

 

[The Baron]

Part II of IV​

It is, also, worth noting that even in The New World Translation acknowledges that Jesus is unique (i.e. “the only begotten Son”, John 3:16).

And yet Daniel 10:13 states that Michael is far from unique.

Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the royal realm of Persia stood in opposition to me for 21 days. But then Miʹcha·el,* one of the foremost princes, came to help me; and I remained there beside the kings of Persia. [emphasis mine]

And since Christ is unique and Michael is not, it would seem that logic and reason would dictate that they are not the same.

Or are we to believe that the angel Michael is also the “Wonderful Counselor”, “Mighty God”, “Eternal Father”, “Prince of Peace” that The New World Translation says of Jesus?

In other words, is the angel Michael really God?

And while I’m thinking about it--here is another problematic verse showing the differences between Christ & the angel Michael. Here The New World Translation clearly shows that Michael refused to rebuke Satan.

John 1: 15
John bore witness about him, yes, he cried out: “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me.”
John the Baptist testifies to His eternal nature. It should be noted that John was born first.

John 17: 5
So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.
Christ is eternal.

John 17: 24
Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.
Christ is eternal.

Isaiah 9: 6
For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us ;And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. [emphasis mine]
Isaiah prophecy of Christ clearly shows His deity.

Hebrews 1: 11
They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out,
Christ is eternal.

Hebrews 13: 8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever.
Christ is eternal.

Matthew 18: 20
For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”
Christ is omnipresent.

Colossians 2: 3
Carefully concealed in him [Christ] are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge.
Christ is omniscient.

 

[The Baron]

Part III of IV
​

John 2:24
But Jesus would not entrust himself to them because he knew them all
Christ is omniscient.

John 4: 29
“Come and see a man who told me everything I did. Could this not perhaps be the Christ?”
Christ is omniscient.

Luke 6: 8
He, however, knew their reasoning...
Christ is omniscient.

Luke 11: 17
Knowing their thinking, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to ruin, and a house divided against itself falls.
Christ is omniscient.

John 12: 33
This he was really saying to indicate what sort of death he was about to die.
Christ is omniscient.

John 13: 1
Now because he knew before the festival of the Passover that his hour had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father, Jesus, having loved his own who were in the world, loved them to the end.
Christ is omniscient.

John 6: 70-71
Jesus answered them: “I chose you twelve, did I not? Yet one of you is a slanderer. He was, in fact, speaking of Judas the son of Simon Is·carʹi·ot, for this one was going to betray him, although he was one of the Twelve.
Christ is omniscient.

Isaiah 9: 6
For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. [emphasis mine].

It is worth noting that even in The New World Translation acknowledges that Jesus is unique (i.e. “the only begotten Son”, John 3:16).

And yet Daniel 10:13 states that Michael is hardly unique.

Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the royal realm of Persia stood in opposition to me for 21 days. But then Miʹcha·el,* one of the foremost princes, came to help me; and I remained there beside the kings of Persia. [emphasis mine]
And since Christ is unique and Michael is not, it would seem that logic and reason would dictate that they are not the same.

Or are we to believe that the angel Michael is also the “Wonderful Counselor”, “Mighty God”, “Eternal Father”, “Prince of Peace” that The New World Translation says of Jesus?

In other words, is the angel Michael really God?

And while I’m thinking about it--here is another problematic verse showing the differences between Christ & the angel Michael. Here The New World Translation clearly shows that Michael refused to rebuke Satan.

Jude, Verse 9
But when Miʹcha·el the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: “May Jehovah rebuke you.”

Yet rebuking Satan was something that Christ never hesitated to do. For multiple examples, check out Matthew Chapter 4 (The Temptation of Christ) in The New World Translation.

 

[The Baron]

IV of IV​

Matthew 9: 23-25
When, now, he came into the ruler’s house and caught sight of the flute players and the crowd making a commotion, Jesus said: “Leave the place, for the little girl did not die but is sleeping.” At this they began to laugh at him scornfully. As soon as the crowd had been sent outside, he went in and took hold of her hand, and the little girl got up.
Christ is omnipotent.

John 11: 38-44
Then Jesus, after groaning again within himself, came to the tomb. It was, in fact, a cave, and a stone was lying against it. Jesus said: “Take the stone away.” Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to him: “Lord, by now he must smell, for it has been four days.” Jesus said to her: “Did I not tell you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?” So they took the stone away. Then Jesus raised his eyes heavenward and said: “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. True, I knew that you always hear me; but I spoke on account of the crowd standing around, so that they may believe that you sent me.” When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice: “Lazʹa·rus, come out!” The man who had been dead came out with his feet and hands bound with wrappings, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them: “Free him and let him go.”
Christ is omnipotent.

Matthew 21: 19
He caught sight of a fig tree by the road and went to it, but he found nothing on it except leaves, and he said to it: “Let no fruit come from you ever again.” And the fig tree withered instantly.
Christ is omnipotent.

Matthew 28: 18
Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.
Christ is omnipotent.

Hebrews 1: 12
and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.”
Christ is immutable.

Hebrews 13: 8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever.
Christ is immutable.

And let’s not forget...

Isiah 7:14
Therefore, Jehovah himself will give you a sign: Look! The young woman* will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and she will name him Im·manʹu·el.
“Immanuel” literally means (in Hebrew), “God with us”. And that is exactly who Jesus is...God!

To close, it is worth noting that God has five deistic characteristics. In short, God is:
1. Eternal,
2. Omniscient,
3. Omnipresent,
4. Omnipotent, and
5. Immutable.

And as The New World Translation proves...so is Jesus.

 

[The Baron]

By the way, if you want to view these bible verses for yourself to see if I'm "being honest" or taking something "out of context", you can check everything our here at JW.org.

I would also encourage everyone to examine the New World Translation scriptures against those same scriptures from a properly transliterated Bible. Here you can compare against any English language translation you like.

 

[TypicalRussian]

Yes Jesus is God

 

[Gateman_Wen]

Part I of IV​

First off, let me state that I wish to be very respectful with this thread. It is not my aim to disrespect any person or any person's deeply-held beliefs. But this is a debate site and we can't debate until we disagree, so...

One of our beloved members--per their beliefs--has questioned the deity of Christ.

That's cool. We're allowed to question everything about Him. But our questions must always be focused on trying to determine truth. In fact, I believe a very good argument can be made that one of the purposes of debate is to determine truth. And the truth is that after we ask all our questions and if we come to an incorrect understanding of who Christ really is...the consequences are both horrific and forever.

Point of fact, the most important question we will ever answer is, "who do you say that I am?"

And the best way to answer that question is through Scripture. And doing so is easy enough. However, when debating Jehovah Witness you have to remember that they have a
heavily edited--and edited incorrectly--version of the Scriptures called The New World Translation.

So, to keep things interesting, I'll prove the deity of Christ using The New World Translation only. I’ll pull the Scriptures I use from the JW Website.

As such, I will not be able to use all of the Scriptures that so clearly show the deity of Christ as The New World Translation has been so heavily “edited” to remove any reference to Christ’s deity.

And before I get started, please allow me to note for all those that may read this that our Jehovah Witness friends believe that Jesus is really the archangel Michael. I’m not clear as to why...

Perhaps if someone reading this is knowledgeable enough, they could share just a single scripture to show us all where Michael is called Christ?

Now, there are multiple scriptures to consider here but there are a couple of verses to share “right out the gate” to get us started...

(Editor’s Note: For ease of reading I will separate my comments regarding scripture in blue. I do not know the wisdom in this but my hope is that this will make what I’ve written a little easier for both you and your eyes to follow. Hope it helps.)

Isaiah 9: 6
For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. [emphasis mine].

Even The New World Translation recognizes that Christ is God.

Now let’s take a look at Revelation 1:8...

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.” [emphasis mine].

So, per The New World Translation, Jehovah is the “Alʹpha and the O·meʹga”, “the Almighty”.

Okay, so now let’s examine...

Revelation 22: 12-16
[Jesus Speaking] “‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to repay each one according to his work. I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Happy are those who wash their robes, so that they may have authority to go to the trees of life and that they may gain entrance into the city through its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and those who are sexually immoral and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices lying.’ “‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you about these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David and the bright morning star.’” [emphasis mine].

So in Revelation 1, God calls Himself the Alpha & the Omega.

And so does Jesus in chapter 22.

At this point, this should be "case closed". But we all know that ain’t gonna happen...so let’s keep going...

with that whole "trinity" thing aren't they all each other?

 

[The Baron]

with that whole "trinity" thing aren't they all each other?

Three persons = One God.

And for the record I can prove using the New World Translation to prove both the personhood of the Holy Spirit and Trinity.

 

[The Baron]

I'm no expert, but the bible plainly tells us that Jesus Christ is not Jehovah.

Demonstrably untrue as proved by the OP.

Jehovah created the heavens and the Earth.

True.

Jehovah is eternal, and not made of flesh and bone. Jehovah cannot be killed.

And as I proved above, Christ is also eternal.

Jesus Christ is God's (Jehovah's) only begotten son.

Also true.

Jesus was flesh and bone, born from mother Mary, wife of Joseph.

All true...and proves nothing.

Jesus was killed by the hands of men.

And raised up again.

Jehovah cannot be killed, therefore Jesus cannot be Jehovah, and vice-versa.

Very simplistic reasoning here, especially after all the verses I posted in the OP proving you wrong.

I do hope you have enough intellectual curiosity to investigate further. You could start by losing your NWT.

 

[grip]

Three persons = One God.

And for the record I can prove using the New World Translation to prove both the personhood of the Holy Spirit and Trinity.

One person = God in 3 different forms.

 

[tosca1]

Part I of IV​

First off, let me state that I wish to be very respectful with this thread. It is not my aim to disrespect any person or any person's deeply-held beliefs. But this is a debate site and we can't debate until we disagree, so...

One of our beloved members--per their beliefs--has questioned the deity of Christ.

That's cool. We're allowed to question everything about Him. But our questions must always be focused on trying to determine truth. In fact, I believe a very good argument can be made that one of the purposes of debate is to determine truth. And the truth is that after we ask all our questions and if we come to an incorrect understanding of who Christ really is...the consequences are both horrific and forever.

Point of fact, the most important question we will ever answer is, "who do you say that I am?"

And the best way to answer that question is through Scripture. And doing so is easy enough. However, when debating Jehovah Witness you have to remember that they have a
heavily edited--and edited incorrectly--version of the Scriptures called The New World Translation.

So, to keep things interesting, I'll prove the deity of Christ using The New World Translation only. I’ll pull the Scriptures I use from the JW Website.

As such, I will not be able to use all of the Scriptures that so clearly show the deity of Christ as The New World Translation has been so heavily “edited” to remove any reference to Christ’s deity.

And before I get started, please allow me to note for all those that may read this that our Jehovah Witness friends believe that Jesus is really the archangel Michael. I’m not clear as to why...

Perhaps if someone reading this is knowledgeable enough, they could share just a single scripture to show us all where Michael is called Christ?

Now, there are multiple scriptures to consider here but there are a couple of verses to share “right out the gate” to get us started...

(Editor’s Note: For ease of reading I will separate my comments regarding scripture in blue. I do not know the wisdom in this but my hope is that this will make what I’ve written a little easier for both you and your eyes to follow. Hope it helps.)

Isaiah 9: 6
For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. [emphasis mine].

Even The New World Translation recognizes that Christ is God.

Now let’s take a look at Revelation 1:8...

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.” [emphasis mine].

So, per The New World Translation, Jehovah is the “Alʹpha and the O·meʹga”, “the Almighty”.

Okay, so now let’s examine...

Revelation 22: 12-16
[Jesus Speaking] “‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to repay each one according to his work. I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Happy are those who wash their robes, so that they may have authority to go to the trees of life and that they may gain entrance into the city through its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and those who are sexually immoral and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices lying.’ “‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you about these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David and the bright morning star.’” [emphasis mine].

So in Revelation 1, God calls Himself the Alpha & the Omega.

And so does Jesus in chapter 22.

At this point, this should be "case closed". But we all know that ain’t gonna happen...so let’s keep going...

Cool.

I like the method too, that you use the NWT to prove it.

 

[The Baron]

One person = God in 3 different forms.

That's "oneness" as in Pentacostal Oneness. That's a cult...not Christianity.

 

[it's just me]

That's "oneness" as in Pentacostal Oneness. That's a cult...not Christianity.

Also known as modalism.

 

[Daisy]

And as I proved above, Christ is also eternal.

Jesus Christ was granted immortality ONLY after Jehovah resurrected him...before that he was susceptible to death...

"Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him." Romans 6:9 KJV

Jehovah God does not die nor has He ever been susceptible to death...

"Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One?" Habakkuk 1:12 KJV

 

[devildavid]

Proof. That's funny. Somehow this thread manages to do something that not even science claims to do. Gee, thanks for solving that problem. That's a load off.

 

[The Baron]

Jesus Christ was granted immortality ONLY after Jehovah resurrected him...before that he was susceptible to death...

"Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him." Romans 6:9 KJV

Jehovah God does not die nor has He ever been susceptible to death...

"Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One?" Habakkuk 1:12 KJV

Not exactly what point you're trying to make. Adding un-related or non-contradictory scriptures is not helping.

 

[Daisy]

Not exactly what point you're trying to make. Adding un-related or non-contradictory scriptures is not helping.

I explained my points...there's more than one...but I cannot understand them for you...

 

[The Baron]

I explained my points...

Try again, please?

there's more than one...

Fine.

but I cannot understand them for you...

Be nice. We can do this like adults.

 

[Daisy]

Try again, please?

Jesus is NOT Jehovah God...

Fine.

That fact can be determined, even using the KJV...that is the version we studied for years before the NWT was published and where many of our beliefs were derived from...

Be nice. We can do this like adults.

Yes, we are...one thing you should realize is, I've been where you are, I believed the false doctrines, such as the trinity, wholeheartedly because I took my preacher's word for it that he was right, as well as family and friends...then I studied the Bible for myself to learn the truth...

 

[grip]

That's "oneness" as in Pentacostal Oneness. That's a cult...not Christianity.

I don't believe in Christianity, it's of man. I believe in Christ, who lives within us.
Everyone and everything is God, Jesus is the head.

 

[The Baron]

Jesus is NOT Jehovah God...

From the New World Translation:

Isaiah 9: 6
For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. [emphasis mine].

Your own Bible proves you wrong.

That fact can be determined, even using the KJV...that is the version we studied for years before the NWT was published and where many of our beliefs were derived from...

We don't need to appeal to the KJV.

We can simply prove (as I just did again) that Christ is Almighty God.

 

[The Baron]

Yes, we are...one thing you should realize is, I've been where you are, I believed the false doctrines, such as the trinity, wholeheartedly because I took my preacher's word for it that he was right, as well as family and friends...then I studied the Bible for myself to learn the truth...

It has been said by people a lot smarter than me that if you want a good Bible then you have a lot of Bibles (speaking of versions).

So let's examine John 1: 1-3...we'll start with the KJV, as requested.

KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

NASB (Regarded as the most accurate modern-day, English translation)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him [b]not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

ESV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

International Standard Version (ISV)
In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He existed in the beginning with God. 3 Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created.

Amplified Bible (AMP)
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created.

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being.

Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created through him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.

Evangelical Heritage Version (EHV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him everything was made, and without him not one thing was made that has been made.

Keeping in mind that Bibles translations are written by teams of linguist, scholars, theologians, stylist and experts in ancient Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic.

And keeping in mind that all of these Bibles uses different codices (ancient bibles), etc. as source material.

Also, remembering that all of these Bibles were produced by various Christian sects (Protestant, Catholic, etc.).

And because of the discipline of textual criticism, we have tremendous confidence in these translations.

I find it very compelling that these 10 different Bibles all say the exact same thing, albeit worded slightly differently.

Now, let's look at the New World Translation of John 1; 1-3 (from the JW.org site):

NWT
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. [emphasis mine]

Notice the difference?

This verse (and this is far from the only verse!) has been purposefully changed by the NWT.

And the change cannot be justified.

So how do you explain this?

 

[The Baron]

I don't believe in Christianity, it's of man. I believe in Christ, who lives within us.
Everyone and everything is God, Jesus is the head.

So you and I are God?

 

[it's just me]

Jesus is NOT Jehovah God...

Then you have no salvation. Not that it matters because you claim there is no hell, so I don't know why you do all of that crap like going door to door. You might as well be an atheist.

That fact can be determined, even using the KJV...that is the version we studied for years before the NWT was published and where many of our beliefs were derived from...

Yes, we are...one thing you should realize is, I've been where you are, I believed the false doctrines, such as the trinity, wholeheartedly because I took my preacher's word for it that he was right, as well as family and friends...then I studied the Bible for myself to learn the truth...

 

[grip]

So you and I are God?

We're a part of God just as God is a part of us.

Psalm 82:6 - "I say, ‘You are gods; you are all children of the Most High."